2003/04 NJ Zagat

[menton1]

i bet andrea never thought she'd have a website full of insane people challenging her to explain herself. 

Insane like foxes.

[menton1]

Is it time to give up on Andrea ever showing up? Do they feel that coming on Egullet would just open up a can of worms?

[Rail Paul]

Is it time to give up on Andrea ever showing up?  Do they feel that coming on Egullet would just open up a can of worms?

I would suspect that Zagat's policy is to publish their findings, and not discuss specifics. I don't know this as fact, but opening a discussion, on somebody else's terms, would be a mess.

This isn't unique to Zagat, most book and movie reviews work the same way. But, like a restaurant review in the NY Times, an unfair or biased Zagat review / omit imposes an economic hardship on good restaurants like An American Grill, which clearly exceed some favorably mentioned places in their Guide.

Tommy references a pack of insane foodies, which may be true, but Zagat has nothing to gain, and much to lose by entering into a discussion. Most radio and TV interviews have an agreed upon format, scope of questions, etc before the mike goes on. Even eGullet reviews questions in the Q&A forum.

That said, I wonder if Nina or Tim would be interested in doing a Q&A?

[Rail Paul]

There's a front page article in today's NY Times about an obscure restaurant in Brooklyn which has joined Bouley, Nobu, Daniel, etc as one of NY's top tables.

Of interest to the NJ folks might be the following:

minimum cut-off to be considered is 100 votes

large numbers of regulars voting is better than new/old etc diners

as few as 100 - 650 voters voted this resto into a "28" of food

being in the top 10 is worth $3mn a year in additional revenue

Zagat doesn't audit its voters, its trusts its surveyors

Sounds to me like An American Grill has had more than 100 votes (NY's cutoff won't be lower than NJ's). If these folks are actually voting, there doesn't seem to be any reason why this resto shouldn't be listed in the NJ book.

Zagat in the Times

[menton1]

Peek-a-boo, Andrea??

[Lreda]

Late last week I left her a voicemail inviting her to visit the site, review the topic and post her comments if she wished. I also gave her my name, phone number, and other info if she wanted to call me back.

Paul,

I'm assuming you never got a response to your voice mail from Andrea. I just want to thank you because I actually forgot about Zagat's, ( One crisis in a restaurant turn to another shortly, then to another, etc, etc). I'm going to contact them again and see what I have to do to get listed. I'll keep everyone updated if you all don't mind. Now THIS could be a restaurant reality show.

Lou

[Rail Paul]

Late last week I left her a voicemail inviting her to visit the site, review the topic and post her comments if she wished. I also gave her my name, phone number, and other info if she wanted to call me back.

Paul,

I'm assuming you never got a response to your voice mail from Andrea. I just want to thank you because I actually forgot about Zagat's, ( One crisis in a restaurant turn to another shortly, then to another, etc, etc). I'm going to contact them again and see what I have to do to get listed. I'll keep everyone updated if you all don't mind. Now THIS could be a restaurant reality show.

Lou

You are correct. Ms Clurfeld hasn't contacted me, and I'm not aware she's identified herself on eG. Doesn't mean she's not around, of course.

I made two calls to her number at the Asbury Park paper, just in case the info from the first call was misplaced, etc.

[glenn]

See this thread also.

[Rail Paul]

See this thread also.

Thanks, Glenn. It looks like your thread got a coupla moderators into a pretty good tussle. I wonder if anybody on eG has actually had dinner or lunch at The Grocery?

Unfortunately, it won't help Lou get his good restaurant into Zagat's NJ guide.

[Lreda]

Ok, I've had about 10 hours to think about this and my blood pressure is starting to rise slightly along with my blood alcohol. The Grocery, putting aside the debate on Food & Media whether it's worthly of being listed in the Top 10 has just gotten huge media exposure by being listed in Zagat's. Granted, it's addition is the story and is a favorable one in a Catch 22 kind of way, all beneficial fo The Grocery. By the way, I'm very happy for them. Somehow I Have a feeling a certain PR firm that I know would probably be involved. Congrats also.

This just shows how important it is to be included in this publication. I've gone back in this topic to see if there was anyone that might know my best route to getting in but didn't see anything.

[glenn]

Do you think the NJ Zagat is THAT influential, at least compared to the NYC edition? Lou, do you really think a review in Zagat would noticeably increase business? I admit to being pretty clueless and I've never bought the NJ edition figuring that it wouldn't have anything meaningful to say, not that the NYC edition does. Is there one edition for all of NJ? As a bush league foodie, do I need to have a copy in my car for desperate times?

[Lreda]

Glenn, I think Zagat's is more important as a directory suppling address' & telephone numbers but if you land in the top 10 or recieve a high rating you can use that for advertising purposes. Although, I'm starting to think about using quotes from e-gulleteers in my press.

[Kim WB]

As a bush league foodie, do I need to have a copy in my car for desperate times?

I don't think its that influential, but it can be helpful..if you're in an area that you are not familiar with, you can usually determine the "feel" of the restaurant by the descriptions...I don't put any credenc on the food ratings, but " great chocolate martiniis at the yuppie packed bar" or " peppered with ladies who lunch" descriptions can give good clues to the general atmosphere of a place.

Also, it is a handy directory...last week I was meeting someone at NovaTerra for dinner, and wss able to give them a precise address.

Lou's despair is warranted...I can't even imagine a plausible reason why his restaurant is not included in this book.

PS, Tommy, Lou, Anthony, how about an Egullet Jersey Board guide to shaker bars? You won't need to rate the food, just the, umm.... decorations.

[Lreda]

Example

Sh***ers                                               

Rt 17                                                     

East Rutherford

F    D  S    C

4  27  -2  $140

" An enjoyable late evening spot for those who have consumed much to begin with"  Also the finest Absolut vanilla vodka in Jersey. A must is the easily cooperative DJ's who play requests .

Here's a golden oldie for you Kim.

[RockADS21]

what reputations we have established

[Kim WB]

Example

Sh***ers                                             

Rt 17                                                   

East Rutherford

F  D S  C

4 27 -2 $140

" An enjoyable late evening spot for those who have consumed much to begin with"  Also the finest Absolut vanilla vodka in Jersey. A must is the easily cooperative DJ's who play requests .

Here's a golden oldie for you Kim.

Glen, see, this illustrates my point..certainly gives one a good idea of the atmosphere of this particular place!

[Kim WB]

what reputations we have established

Actually, this e-gullet compilation would encourage my husband to join egullet..he'd finally have something to contribute!

[Steve Klc]

"Lou's despair is warranted...I can't even imagine a plausible reason why his restaurant is not included in this book"

If I've been reading along correctly, and given what I've always perceived to be possible inherent murkiness and lack of accountability of Zagat, we have identified one plausible reason--that the local NJ Zagat "editor" might say his restaurant did not receive the 100 vote minimum. If that is indeed the threshold--what if it is 200 votes in NJ? Do we know if this is disclosed anywhere?

Also, I had a conversation with a Zagat editor (and eGullet member) recently--not in the Northeast or Mid-Atlantic region--and this is from our exchange: "a certain number of people must "vote" on the restaurant, and if the votes number less than "x", then as a local editor, we can't include them, which sucks, because there are so many really terrific off-the-eaten-path restaurants out there, but unfortunately it's a case of majority rules. I can add 20-30 restaurants to the survey that, in my opionion, should be included, but if the votes aren't there, the restaurant is SOL."

Which I interpreted as meaning: restaurants that didn't make the cut in the previous survey and/or didn't make the previous book--have to be added to the next survey by the editor--or have to be written in by the voters. But that in either case--if you don't get the minimum votes, you don't get in and that a local editor cannot circumvent this.

Here's where it gets interesting.

"There are all sorts of other tangibles for restaurant exclusions, as well, but that seems the most prevelant in the books I edit. For Zagat's America's Tops books, we also have to include -- no exceptions -- those restaurants which our voters deem the most popular, even if we, as editors, completely disagree. It's a numbers game. I'm a huge ethnic food freak, and those are the restaurants that seem to fall by the wayside when it comes to Zagat, so I'm working on a "x" ethnic restaurant book proposal to compensate for that!"

(I've removed the geographic reference and the threshold number of votes to protect this person's identity--but suffice it to say the threshold vote amount was not 100.)

But this quote: "There are all sorts of other tangibles for restaurant exclusions" prompts me to wonder--what might these other tangibles be? And how might that be influenced by the personal bias or preference of either the local editor or the Zagats themselves? Is it possible for a local editor--out of bias or spite--to exclude a restaurant which has met the minimum threshold of votes?

"I'm starting to think about using quotes from e-gulleteers in my press"

You mean you aren't already?

[RockADS21]

F Zagat...I tend to agree with Lou...I have swayed towards using it as more of a directory for adresses/areas/phone numbers then anything...

[menton1]

Kudos to Michael Klein for his response on the Pennsylvania Forum to some of the questions swirling around about the Zagat Guides. He is the editor of the Philly Zagat, and he has also offered there to answer any and all questions about Zagat Philadelphia.

Perhaps Andrea Klurfeld can take a lead from Mr Klein and come aboard the NJ Egullet and answer some of the unfinished business discussed in the last 3 pages here?

[tommy]

Kudos to Michael Klein for his response on the Pennsylvania Forum to some of the questions swirling around about the Zagat Guides. He is the editor of the Philly Zagat, and he has also offered there to answer any and all questions about Zagat Philadelphia.

Perhaps Andrea Klurfeld can take a lead from Mr Klein and come aboard the NJ Egullet and answer some of the unfinished business discussed in the last 3 pages here?

who really cares what zagats has to say?

[menton1]

who really cares what zagats has to say?

3 pages on an Egullet thread, 10 Million guides/year, and an Egullet member who contributed this response on June 7 on this very thread:

how does the "top ten" work again? i find it hard to believe that amanda's gets as much traffic as baumgart's. i also find it hard to believe that baumgart's gets any traffic at all. but, sheep will be sheep.

[tommy]

3 pages on an Egullet thread, 10 Million guides/year, and an Egullet member who contributed this response on June 7 on this very thread:

how does the "top ten" work again? i find it hard to believe that amanda's gets as much traffic as baumgart's. i also find it hard to believe that baumgart's gets any traffic at all. but, sheep will be sheep.

that must be a very handsome egullet member. although i'm not sure if he really gives zagats much weight.

[menton1]

that must be a very handsome egullet member. although i'm not sure if he really gives zagats much weight.

Yes, it's a breathtakingly gorgeous looking person, dressed in a chartreuse cocktail glass and olive!!

[=Mark]

Perhaps Andrea Klurfeld can take a lead from Mr Klein and come aboard the NJ Egullet and answer some of the unfinished business discussed in the last 3 pages here?

Given the whipping that Ms. Clurfield has recieved on these forums I doubt she would be amenable to posting here.