Authentic Chinese food

[BCinBC]

When we were kids (in Victoria, BC; parents originally from Canton) we did eat a lot of rice, my sister especially. Even in restaurants we used to order a large bowl of white rice with dinner. However, nowadays I don't eat nearly as much rice - at home or especially in a restaurant. It's main use is as a sauce soaker, otherwise it's just taking up space in me belly.

I totally agree with the oil comments though. Restaurants use a lot of oil, mainly (I think) because it makes the finished dish all shiny and photogenic. This is also the reason why I don't like Chinese take-out, because Chinese restaurant food is built to be consumed right away. After it starts cooling, the oil starts congealing. Chinese restaurant food the next day, as a general rule, is pretty Fing gross. (Though this is partially due to the useage and consumption of seafood the next day, too.)

Which is funny, because I prefer pizza cold the next day - and think of all the oil that has congealed there. Hrm... twisted my own brain.

[Ben Hong]

A lot of this corresponds to what I see Chinese people eating in restaurants -- lots of rice. But I understand that in some ways white rice (which is what I see around here) is not all that healthful and that the Chinese have a high incidence of diabetes. I suspect (somebody help me here) that the poor in China probably don't refine their rice but eat it brown. My local restaurant now offers brown for a dollar extra. Isn't white rice nutritionally similar to white bread? Or is it a genetic or adaptive thing? Some people aren't bothered by refined carbos; they send me into a tailspin about an hour later.

←

Wow, you've said a mouthful. We Chinese have depended on polished white rice for oh, let's say a half dozen millennia or more. It may not be as nutrient rich as a potato, but neither is it more unhealthy than any other staple. And yes, it could be a contributing factor in creating diabetes, but so do so many other starchy staples.

The poor in China would not eat unpolished rice if there was an alternative, however remote. It's a lazy person who doesn't go that one extra step to polish the rice. To most Chinese, brown rice is animal fodder and frankly, I would rather eat white bread than go anywhere near brown rice and I am sure that many others on this board would agree with me.

Rice in the white polished form represents more than just nutrition to most Asian cultures. It is iconic, the basis of a large part of our cultural heritage; it is both metaphoric and allegoric; in its pure white form, it is symbolic of purity and goodness (certain cultures like the Japanese are loath to put anything on top of their bowl of rice, like a sauce or condiment, so as to preserve the pristine appearance of the rice). It is comfort. It is life.

Polished white rice as a staple has steadfastly remained the one constant through the history of over two thirds of the world's population. It will survive the present societal penchant for fads and trends in the world of nutrition.

[sheetz]

Eating brown rice is very rare among Chinese for a couple of reasons. Yes, polished rice looks nicer, but also the outer hull on brown rice contains oils that go rancid quickly. From a culinary standpoint, brown rice just isn't as useful as polished white rice. With white rice you can make various styles of noodles, dumplings, and cakes, whereas you can't really do much with brown rice.

[jo-mel]

The thing is, even if you aren't shaking MSG itself into your wok, many of the condiments that are essential to Chinese cooking themselves contain a good amount of MSG -- Oyster Sauce and  Superior Soy Sauce, and Mushroom Soy Sauce for example. So its kind of misleading for a Chinese restaurant to say they don't use MSG, because they really are.

←

Sometimes the notation on a menu says -- "No added MSG". I guess since it is not physically added, then that covers for the MSG already found in prepared sauces.

The whole hue and cry about MSG and Chinese food does a dis-service to Chinese food. No one talks about Japanese food or all the soups and cold cuts and frozen entrees and a miriad of stuff in the supermarkets which disguise the letters MSM on the ingredient labels with other words that mean the same thing.

[SuzySushi]

Another difference in the traditional Chinese diet vs. American diet (and I'm surprised no one has brought this up before) is the Chinese omission, for the most part, of dairy products. No milk, cheese, no butter. Because meats are used in small proportions in the traditional diet, this means the Chinese diet typically contains much less saturated fat than the typical American diet.

Re: Ben's comment on diabetes, Type 2 diabetes is not caused by eating simple carbohydrates and refined grains, although being overweight is a definite risk factor. And the highest incidence of Type 1 (insulin dependent) diabetes is actually in Scandinavia -- Finland, to be precise -- while Asia has a low incidence of Type 1. There's a definite genetic factor involved in Type 1.

[jo-mel]

Eating brown rice is very rare among Chinese for a couple of reasons. Yes, polished rice looks nicer, but also the outer hull on brown rice contains oils that go rancid quickly. From a culinary standpoint, brown rice just isn't as useful as polished white rice. With white rice you can make various styles of noodles, dumplings, and cakes, whereas you can't really do much with brown rice.

←

When the Chinese milled their own rice for personal use, more of the nutrients were kept. Machine milled rice took care of that. But in earlier days (according to Anderson) polished rice was more costly, therefore more prestigious. And more practical, too, storage wise. Except for a few weevils, most insects didn't go near it because of the lack of nutrition in it.

Another comment he made, made sense. When you are going to eat rice 3 times a day, you want a rice with as little flavor and texture as possible.

That last bit about 'flavor' is interesting. I've always found the white rice in China had a flavor that I can't find here. I LOVE the taste of it all by itself. I like the rice here, too, plain and even cold with pepper and vinegar, but it is not the same as that great rice in China.

[anzu]

Re: Ben's comment on diabetes, Type 2 diabetes is not caused by eating simple carbohydrates and refined grains, although being overweight is a definite risk factor. And the highest incidence of Type 1 (insulin dependent) diabetes is actually in Scandinavia -- Finland, to be precise -- while Asia has a low incidence of Type 1. There's a definite genetic factor involved in Type 1.

←

Not disagreeing with you about incidence of diabetes, but something to think about: I've always been very suspicious about the figures concerning diabetes - and particularly Type 1 - from any developing country. I always have the sneaking suspicion that, in rural areas particularly, it is massively under-reported and under-treated. If you have insulant dependent diabetes in such areas, you probably die. How many doctors in rural areas recognize it, or have the money to do tests if they do, or how many people have the money for and access to insulin?

I've met (well-off, urban) people with Type 1 in China: most of them were not taking insulin, but taking some type of Chinese medicine for it instead at the advice of their doctor. And they all had the acetone-scented breath typical of diabetes being massively out of control.

That's the kind of thing that makes me very doubtful about figures concerning incidence of diabetes in poorer countries. That, and the amazing coincidence between getting more wide-spread medical care in any country as the country gets richer and suddenly discovering more cases of diabetes. I've always been doubtful, there also, that it is increasing wealth creating more diabetes (as is usually claimed), and wonder whether instead it is the wealth that is allowing it to be discovered.

[SuzySushi]

Re: Ben's comment on diabetes, Type 2 diabetes is not caused by eating simple carbohydrates and refined grains, although being overweight is a definite risk factor. And the highest incidence of Type 1 (insulin dependent) diabetes is actually in Scandinavia -- Finland, to be precise -- while Asia has a low incidence of Type 1. There's a definite genetic factor involved in Type 1.

←

Not disagreeing with you about incidence of diabetes, but something to think about: I've always been very suspicious about the figures concerning diabetes - and particularly Type 1 - from any developing country. I always have the sneaking suspicion that, in rural areas particularly, it is massively under-reported and under-treated. If you have insulant dependent diabetes in such areas, you probably die. How many doctors in rural areas recognize it, or have the money to do tests if they do, or how many people have the money for and access to insulin?

I've met (well-off, urban) people with Type 1 in China: most of them were not taking insulin, but taking some type of Chinese medicine for it instead at the advice of their doctor. And they all had the acetone-scented breath typical of diabetes being massively out of control.

That's the kind of thing that makes me very doubtful about figures concerning incidence of diabetes in poorer countries. That, and the amazing coincidence between getting more wide-spread medical care in any country as the country gets richer and suddenly discovering more cases of diabetes. I've always been doubtful, there also, that it is increasing wealth creating more diabetes (as is usually claimed), and wonder whether instead it is the wealth that is allowing it to be discovered.

←

You're right... I was using too broad a brush in characterizing "Asia." Specifically, the figures I saw in Type 1 Diabetes (2005) by Ragnar Hanas, MD, PhD, a leading endocrinologist from Sweden, compare European countries, North America (Canada and USA separately), Australia, New Zealand, and Japan -- all of which are considered "first world" countries with good medical care. The risk of developing Type 1 diabetes before age 15 is 6.6 per 1,000 in Finland, 4.5 in Sweden, 3.9 in Canada, 2.3 in the USA, 1.2 in Germany and 1.1 in Italy, for instance (source cited was a study by Diabetes Mondiale Project Group published in Diabetes Care2000;23:1516-26). Citing other sources, the same book notes "Although 120 million people live in Japan (compared to Sweden's 8 million) the actual number of Japanese children and teenagers with diabetes does not exceed the number in Sweden." and also "Diabetes is more common among Asian immigrants living in UK than in their relatives remaining in their countries of origin" -- though this might be because it is under-reported and under-treated in their countries of origin.

Edited August 24, 2005 by SuzySushi (log)

[sanrensho]

It's just not diet either. Although I haven't been to China (just Honk Kong), I would surmise that daily activity levels are generally higher contributing to less obesity. This is what I certainly found in Japan, where the people are also comparatively skinny even though the diet is not exactly the same as in China.

[hzrt8w]

..... They act like they haven't eaten for days and heap their plates up without regard to those who follow. Maybe it's because they see homecooked Chinese food they haven't seen for a few months!? But then, they do that with non-Chinese food too.

←

We Chinese have elastic stomachs.

If it is at home, or at a regular pay-per-serving meal, we eat just enough. No more.

When food is free (read "buffet" all you can eat)... we can eat three times the normal amount!!!

[Tepee]

When food is free (read "buffet" all you can eat)... we can eat three times the normal amount!!!       

←

Oh. I thought this was a Msian and Sporean phenomenon, what with the "kiasu" (hokkien word for geng shee=cantonese, scared to lose out) syndrome.

Doesn't apply to me, though..don't go much for buffets because I know I won't do justice to the food. Besides, I follow the wrong order, stuffing myself at the dessert counter first. Not a good strategy.

Edited August 24, 2005 by Tepee (log)

[bobmac]

Thanks for all the thoughtful, informative answers. This is what's great about this site. And maybe I have been too influenced by the anti-carbo craze.

[sheetz]

When food is free (read "buffet" all you can eat)... we can eat three times the normal amount!!!       

←

And I thought Las Vegas was popular with the Chinese because of the gambling...

[jokhm]

Damn good thread. This is on every white person's mind the moment they step into their first mainland china restaurant experience: "how the hell are these people stuffing themselves with so much food...!? and look at them!" (observation by another white person.... though if I haven't shaved everyone always asks if I'm iraqi (??) )

hah.

Makes sense that the changes will be apparent after 2 generation wealth, I imagine.

And When I mentioned how I stuff myself silly with lamb skewers... I don't mean the tourist kind.. I only go to the Cab driver hangouts in beijing or some real popular muslim places recently in Xi An that serve the sticks by the 20+!...side order of suanmeitang only. The food is strong there.

Easy to stuff it. mmm.

I love all the MSG talk too. Someone at my table asks for no msg and I'll just revoke the person's ordering rights. Reminds me of all the Chinese guesthouses catering to foreigners that always have a jam-packed resto with 50 foreigners constantly ordering the dish written on the wall "Stir fried noodles with vegetables". That's just what I traveled 15 thousand Km for.

They call me a food snob here. meh.. I say Feed me.

Oh.. And I love Anzu's thinking on reporting vs. incidence. Look around in China or India... can you actually believe statistics!? Really dead-on observation. I'm going to link to your post everytime someone shoots a blanket stat across this 1.3billion population. Always good to keep in mind that 1/8th of the world is a poor/hardly accounted-for chinese farmer.

[EdS]

I've tried to like brown rice but it just doesn't work for me. Animal fodder is right. I don't view white rice as being a problem as long as you keep the portion size reasonable and eat a variety of other food. However, if you're looking to try another type of rice that might be better for you nutritonally and don't want that nasty brown rice flavor, I'd suggest a short-grain haiga rice like Tamaki Haiga. It's a semi-polished rice. The bran is removed but the germ is retained. The germ seems to contribute a different flavor than the bran. I'd say it tastes more "ricey" than rice without the germ. I rather like it and alternate between California koshihikari (like Tamaki Gold) and haiga. It cooks about the same as regular short-grain rice. If you use short-grain, you might want to try it. It sells for about $1/lb. in 15lb. bags at my Japanese market.

Edited August 26, 2005 by esvoboda (log)

[jokhm]

http://www.foodsubs.com/Rice.html

Quick link on rice types.. though doesn't really show nutritional properties much. For some reason I always had it in my head that aged Basmati rice was always the best choice to balance nutrition and flavor.. though I personally think it has the best flavor out of all rice varieties. Either way, brown rice is something i normally wait to hear about from my vegan friends just to get a nice big laugh out. I guess it comes down to that whole Eat to Live or Live to eat classification, and no one who swears by brown rice is going to wake up in a cold sweat in the middle of the night craving a poutine.

[Pan]

On the types of rice, I always liked kampung (Malaysian village) rice, which was partly hulled, but white rice (especially Thai rice) was always of higher status there, so I don't think you can find the old style of kampung rice anymore, especially as it seems that most of the rice paddies in Malaysia -- at least the peninsular part -- were converted into pastures some time ago.

[...]That's the kind of thing that makes me very doubtful about figures concerning incidence of diabetes in poorer countries. That, and the amazing coincidence between getting more wide-spread medical care in any country as the country gets richer and suddenly discovering more cases of diabetes. I've always been doubtful, there also, that it is increasing wealth creating more diabetes (as is usually claimed), and wonder whether instead it is the wealth that is allowing it to be discovered.

←

Well, as someone who used to live in a real village, I'll say that in Malaysia, at any rate, the incidence of any type of diabetes was really low in the 70s, when most people were poor, did hard labor, walked or biked long distances all the time, and were skinny and muscular. And I didn't need hospital figures to know that; kencing manis (=sweet urine) was something people knew about and when it occurred, they could detect it without resort to urban medicine. Now that Malaysians are much richer, drive their cars and motorcycles instead of walking for even a few minutes, and leave the hard labor to foreign workers, the incidence of type 2 diabetes is very high in Malaysia. I don't know if that holds true in China, but I suspect that the incidence of type 2 diabetes is low anywhere where people eat adequately but not lavishly, get a lot of exercise every day from walking or biking and doing hard labor, and remain skinny and muscular. Now, what that has to do with type 1 diabetes is a different issue. I have no idea whether the incidence of type 1 diabetes has increased, decreased, or remained the same in Malaysia, or whether it has ever occurred or now occurs much at all there.

[ecr]

Anzu, I don't think anyone is bicycling across Shanghai these days since the municipal govt has banned bicycles on most city streets.

Re the Chs versus American diet -- compared to twenty years ago there are now many more overweight if not obese mainland Chinese, unless you go to really poverty-stricken rural areas. And the proportion of meat-to-veg in stir-fy dishes is much much higher now unless -- again -- you are in poorer areas. Pple will also choose to cut back on rice to eat more meat main dishes, if they can afford it. So I would wager that in spite of little dairy consumption and not much in the way of dessert consumption, you will see a larger and larger proportion of overweight mainlanders over the next decade or two. Perhaps never matching to American statistics, though....

[jokhm]

I personally believe the secret fat ingredient present in american diets is the soft drink. People drink so much of it in some places that it shocks me to see people doubling the caloric content of their meal in 20 seconds of coke chugging. So in China, if you begin to pair the diet change with an eventual obsession with sugar drinks, ayaa...

The whole no rice thing that you mentioned is definitely a strange trend.. and i see it all the time. In Beijing most people try to avoid the starches in favor of more meat capacity.

[sheetz]

Traditionally, meat was reserved for very special occasions, which is why banquet menus typically consisted of 80% animal protein.

[hzrt8w]

I personally believe the secret fat ingredient present in american diets is the soft drink. People drink so much of it in some places that it shocks me to see people doubling the caloric content of their meal in 20 seconds of coke chugging.

.....

←

I think it is more than the soft drink. The fast food industry is boosting the consumption quantity at an alarming rate. 20-30 years ago, a big mac was a "not-so-big" mac and a whopper was a "normal size" whopper. One of these would be considered a lunch. Nowadays, not only do you find the extra large "value" meal, you also find these triple decker hamburgers, these Six Dollar Burgers, along with the extra large bag of french fries, washing it down with a 32-64 oz soft drink. Once one chain starts doing it, all other fast foods follow.

Can you imagine eating xiaolongbao the size of your fist? Or wonton that's the size of a tennis ball? Or 2 plates of rice for your pick-up-stick lunch special? That's the direction America is heading.

[hzrt8w]

When food is free (read "buffet" all you can eat)... we can eat three times the normal amount!!!       

←

And I thought Las Vegas was popular with the Chinese because of the gambling...

←

Gambling first! If you win big, you dine at the 5-stars eating abalone and drinking shark-fin soup. If you don't... well, you can at least stuff yourself up on the house!

[ecr]

>>Can you imagine eating xiaolongbao the size of your fist?<<

I don't know ... is it a tasty one?

[jokhm]

mmm

I remember trying one in HK that wasn't quite thaaat big but far bigger than those I've eaten in Shanghai, and it was filled with yellow soup and crab meat. I don't remember the specifics but someone said that it was the season for these (august) and they cost about 28HKD each!^#@

That brings me to a second thought which maybe i should be including in a new thread altogether. Can anyone describe the intended differences between xiaolongbao and guantangbaozi? Are the GTBs often bigger (mine were definitely a bit larger than normal XLB, and filled with lamb rather than pork or seafood. But are there any other real differences. When i mentioned them in Xi An many people didn't know what XLBs were and some just said they are the same but eaten differently. Perhaps someone here knows more? Either way I could live on both of them... and that's it.

[mflo]

as a professional cook and as a chinese, i would like to point out that beside the msg, the other difference between home cooked chinese food and restaurant style is the lack of "wok hei" in home cooked food. the stove makes a difference.

you can store your rice overnight before cooking it as fried rice just like the restaurant did, but you can never achieve that same taste, even with the MSG.