Sommeliers Smelling Wine

[cabrales]

French Laundry sommeliers only smell a bottle of wine, after opening it and prior to serving it to guests. This appears to be the practice for both red and white bottles.

What are members' views on the efficacy of the practice? Are members aware of other restaurants that have implemented it?

Edited February 10, 2003 by cabrales (log)

[vmilor]

Cabrales,

I am a bit confused. What else can sommeliers do ? What other practices have you encountered? Did you mean that they are only smelling but not tasting the wine? Quite a few people can tell if a wine is corked by only smelling. This is actually why I feel a bit cheated if I order an expensive wine and when it is uncorked some heads turn (because it is aromatic) and then the sommelier helps himself to a good 2 ounces of it. Maybe FL people(Bobbie?) are trying to be polite.

[cabrales]

vmilor -- Yes, I meant they only smell.

[Robert Nesta Marley]

they're probably only smelling it because they don't want to be perceived as "stealing" wine from a guest, as vilmor explicated. it's too bad that some people perceive it his way, especially after someone has assisted you in choosing your wine. i would hope that enough guests invite them to a glass at FL so that it isn't an issue that they don't actually taste wine they're serving.

while TCA is generally apparent on the nose, some of the other potential flaws aren't. so i do think it's important to taste a wine before you serve the $300 bottle to someone who probably isn't used to IDing flaws. a great many people (who order expensive wine, even) can't ID TCA, even. so it's a sommelier's responsibility, as far as i am concerned, to do it for them. it's our job. so charge us for the 2 oz, will you? or spare me that resentment.

[vmilor]

Robert,

I have seen sommeliers(such as Monsieur Jambon at Faugeron) who, when they identifed a flaw in a $300 bottle they threw it out even if I would not have sent the bottle back. You may belong to this honorable category for which I hold highest esteem. But unfortunately sometimes it is the other way around: I identify a flaw and the sommelier is resistant. There are not too many sommeliers out there who will smell the bottle, see that it is not corked and than taste it , find another flaw, and warn the client. This said, nothing is more pleasant for me in a restaurant than to hit if off with the sommelier and share my wine if he/she honors me by drinking with me--either from the bottle I ordered or I brought (when I brink the bottle the first time in a reataurant and share with the sommelier I have one condition: they SHOULD charge corkage and my offer has nothing to do with it). Well in the end as it is not hard to identify good from bad wine by the aroma, it does not take more than a few minutes and exchange of a few glances to understand the sommelier's character. And to assure you Robert, a good sommelier can make me loyal client in a fine restaurant but a great restaurant with a bad sommelier(say Ledoyen) will forever lose me.

[Robert Nesta Marley]

so you do want the sommelier to taste your wine, vilmor? is that what you're saying?

[cabrales]

a good sommelier can make me loyal client in a fine restaurant but a great restaurant with a bad sommelier(say Ledoyen) will forever lose me.

vmilor -- Given that restaurants often have a team of sommelier, how does your "bad sommelier will forever lose me" position in that context? How would you know the sommelier has not left, if you do not return?

Also, Ledoyen has very good cuisine -- are you indicating that no matter how good the cuisine, you would not return?

[vmilor]

so you do want the sommelier to taste your wine, vilmor?  is that what you're saying?

If they are performing a service and adding a value they are welcome.

[vmilor]

a good sommelier can make me loyal client in a fine restaurant but a great restaurant with a bad sommelier(say Ledoyen) will forever lose me.

vmilor -- Given that restaurants often have a team of sommelier, how does your "bad sommelier will forever lose me" position in that context? How would you know the sommelier has not left, if you do not return?

Also, Ledoyen has very good cuisine -- are you indicating that no matter how good the cuisine, you would not return?

Cabrales,

I judge the restaurant on the basis of whoever among the sommeliers deals with me. If they cannot answer a question, they can always ask the head sommelier.

About Ledoyen: it happened twice under different regimes. It was even worse under LeSquer. I ordered a Meursault Perrieres 95 from Coche Dury. There was tremendous resistance. They recommended that I try a Henri Boillot Meursault instead because it was ready to drink. I told them that I preferred to drink the Coche Dury since I especially like his style, and I recommended that they decant it. He said they do not do this. I asKed to speak to the head sommelier. There were only 3 tables (the restaurant was 2 stars then in early 2000), but the head sommelier took his time. When he spoke to me I got the impression that he thought I had coincidentally hit on the prized bottle, and he was prejudiced against serving it to me. I did what I hated: name dropping. (I actually had met Coche Dury.) By the time they had reluctantly agreed to bring the bottle my first course had arrived. To add salt to the injury the temperature was not correct: 20 or 22 in Celcius instead of 12 or so. They decanted, put in an ice bucket, but I had to send back my shellfish. It came back reheated and overcooked. In the meantime, the chef had prepared his masterpiece turbot dish with truffles, which then had to be reheated. All in all, it was a comedy of errors. By the way the wine was outstanding: leesy, textured and intense, a perfect match with truffles.

But as I said before I have also seen great sommeliers both in US and in France. They can really add or detract value to your meal. Most of them take pride in discovering little gems which are not outrageouly priced. Bobbie in FL is one of these guys and so is Jonathan at Chez Panisse and Ray at the 5th floor. I am sure there are many great ones in New York. As consumers we have to be selective and demanding in order to differentiate and reward the good ones and help their cause.

[vmilor]

so you do want the sommelier to taste your wine, vilmor?  is that what you're saying?

Robert,

I apologize I forgot the most salient point. Sometimes I get the impression that some restaurants do not let sommeliers taste special bottles and sommeliers serve themselves more out of curiosity than other more lofty reasons. The fault lies with the restaurant owner not the sommelier. If they ask me or if I like them I am more than happy to share the bottle I ordered but I like this to be a matter of my discretion rather than theirs. Am I correct in my perception? Perhaps you can give us an insider view.

[Robert Nesta Marley]

Sometimes I get the impression that some restaurants do not  let sommeliers taste special bottles and sommeliers serve themselves more out of curiosity than other more lofty reasons. .....If they ask me or if I like them I am more than happy to share the bottle I ordered but I like this to be a matter of my discretion rather than theirs.

Well, there's nothing wrong with being curious with a wine. i would hope that my sommelier would be curious about something i'd chosen; and it's fun to approach a wine with anticipation together, and discuss reactions. this is the passion that should fuel service. but i'm sure many sommeliers are careful with guests who may get proprietary about the bottle they paid for. and they have the right to be, so that's a salient point. but i don't know any sommelier that would come out and ask for a taste of a wine that's already been tasted by a client (barring a suggestion of defect).

[Beachfan]

Is 2 oz. standard for a tastevin fill? I would have thought 1 oz was more common (and I am happy for my sommelier to check it out).

[marcus]

I believe that smelling the wine is entirely sufficient. There are very few flaws that an expert sommelier can't detect on aroma alone, too few to worry about. I personally like to drink as much of my bottle of wine as possible, including drinking from the dregs after the decanted wine is finished. In fact, for very old wines, the dregs may be the last repositories of the wines original character. I also agree with Beechfan that when a wine is tasted, the pour should be under an ounce at most.

With regard to vmilor's 95 Coche Dury, I suspect that they believed that the wine wasn't ready. I had a similar experience at Ducasse with an 89 Chave Herimitage. Some sommeliers have gigantic egos and they view not taking their advice as a major insult and then proceed to sulk for the rest of the meal.

[Steve Plotnicki]

With regard to vmilor's 95 Coche Dury, I suspect that they believed that the wine wasn't ready. I had a similar experience at Ducasse with an 89 Chave Herimitage. Some sommeliers have gigantic egos and they view not taking their advice as a major insult and then proceed to sulk for the rest of the meal.

I used to believe this but I have been informed otherwise by my friends in the trade. Sommeliers like to put their cherries on their lists, but they like to save them for their cherry customers who give them repeat business. I had two instances in 3 star restaurants in Paris that I found unusual and which friends of mine told me it was because I wasn't a regular customer. One where the sommelier fought very hard with me about the wine I wanted to order (some powerful 1990 red Burg) and instead pushed a 1987 Jayer Cros Parentoux which was diluted. And another where I wanted to order a bottle of 1999 Meo-Camuzet Richbourg and the sommelier fought with me about it and I ended up ordering a 1995 Haut Brion instead. And I don't know how long ago you ate at Ducasse, but I've had that Chave a number of times in the last year and a half and the bottles vary from being on the verge of ready to drink to slightly closed. Certainly nothing that can't be overcome with a short decant. I think he was just trying to hold on to his Chave.

In reality, most of the wine restaurants sell is closed. In fact, I would say that 95+% of the wine on restaurant lists is not ready to drink. So that excuse is bogus. And if the wines are closed, what are they doing on the list? Once when I went to Arzak the sommelier offered me the wine list. I had heard from a friend that they had 1958 Marquis de Riscal on their list for $45. So I open the list and the oldest wine is from the 80's. After a discussion with the sommelier, in which he hemmed and hawed, I eventually out my foot down and he finally offered me a reserve list with wines going back to the '40's. By the way, I find that Taillevent does not discriminate this way and that their recommendations are actually improvements on what you tried to order.

Vmilor - That '95 Coche Perrieres is a great wine. But not as great as the '96 Coche Perrieres which along with the 1996 Niellon Chevalier-Montrachet are the two greatest young white wines I have ever tasted. They are as close to perfection as it gets IMO.

[Ron Johnson]

When I am presented with a small amount of wine from a recently opened bottle by the sommelier for tasting I almost never taste or swirl. In my opinion, the only reason to send back a wine is if it is defective, and a corked wine is best determined by smell. Swirling can mask the cork taint, so thats why I dont swirl before I sniff.

However, once the wine is mine, I swirl, sniff, taste, and savor.

[vmilor]

Steve P, thanks for the tips. I actually have 96 Meurs. P. Coche in my cellar and not 95 so I was very curious. My tactic with the French sommeliers is to tell them that I am very unsophisticated therefore unable to appreciate the subtleties of ,say a 94 Mongeard Mugneret they propose and insist that they uncork the 90 Jayer Brulees which is not"ready". Usually they get the message.

For Arzak: I failed to snatch the 58 Riscal that Geoff Troy had the priviledge to taste and rave about. When I faxed them I requested that they make 50 and 58 available by calling the winery if necessary. This is when I had made 3 reservations over 15 days we were there in the sep. of 98. They found 50 and 64 Riserva. instead of 58. They charged $50 or $60. These were very good bottles, but 92-93 range not higher. When I was there last november they swore that they do not have any 50s from Riscal anymore. If you or I ever taste the 58 let's not necessarily expect Nirvana because there are significant bottle variations in old Riojas for reasons I do not know.

[Steve Plotnicki]

If you or I ever taste the 58 let's not necessarily expect Nirvana because there are significant bottle variations in old Riojas for reasons I do not know.

I know someone who was able to buy a case and a half of the 1958 . Problem is, my experience (ahem) is that 50% of the bottles are bad. But the bottles that are good are phenomenol. In fact I had a Rioja tasting at a friend's house a while back and I am including a link to the notes in case you never saw them;

Old Rioja in Greenwich Vikkage

[Wilfrid]

In reality, most of the wine restaurants sell is closed. In fact, I would say that 95+% of the wine on restaurant lists is not ready to drink. So that excuse is bogus.  And if the wines are closed, what are they doing on the list?

That's worth a thread of its own. I couldn't agree more, and it depresses me somewhat. It seems an utterly sufficient reason for trying to do BYO.

[vmilor]

If you or I ever taste the 58 let's not necessarily expect Nirvana because there are significant bottle variations in old Riojas for reasons I do not know.

I know someone who was able to buy a case and a half of the 1958 . Problem is, my experience (ahem) is that 50% of the bottles are bad. But the bottles that are good are phenomenol. In fact I had a Rioja tasting at a friend's house a while back and I am including a link to the notes in case you never saw them;

Old Rioja in Greenwich Vikkage

Thanks for the link Steve. Very informative and maybe I should not feel bad that I have not had a Pingus.

Wilfrid: Please start the thread. Maybe we can get some sommelier participation.