The etiquette of being served first

[hollywood]

Does anyone think, that it is generally accepted good manners, in the States (not France) today, to start eating a course while a diner is briefly absent from the table?

Well, since you put it that way, no.

[ngatti]

I would not.

Nick

[cabrales]

I would say diners could beginning eating in France without appearing impolite (if properly executed), or they could wait.

Separately, I wonder whether the gender of the missing diner at Lespinasse had any impact on the decision. Let's say that Wilfrid were the missing diner. Nick: Would you have waited?

Edited December 9, 2002 by cabrales (log)

[ngatti]

I would say diners could beginning eating in France without appearing impolite (if properly executed), or they could wait.

Separately, I wonder whether the gender of the missing diner at Lespinasse had any impact on the decision. Let's say that Wilfrid were the missing diner. Nick: Would you have waited?

Yes.

Nick

Edited December 9, 2002 by ngatti (log)

[Basildog]

Macrosan, if you were the missing purpose, would you prefer that your tablemates waited?

(Edit: Nice Freudian slip there, huh? Please read purpose as person.)

I like it when Marcosan leaves the table...when else can we talk about him?????

[Fat Guy]

Wilfrid, surely you will agree that "generally accepted good manners" and proper etiquette are two different things. Most people -- Americans especially -- have no clue regarding basic table manners. What we're talking about are accepted good manners among people who bother to focus on issues of etiquette. And among those people I would say that it is entirely acceptable, indeed required, to eat hot food when it is served. Not eating hot food when it is served places the person on whose account everybody else is waiting in an awkward position, and that's just plain bad manners. I also take issue with the argument that etiquette doesn't make sense. It does make sense. It's just that not every convention has utility. But to use your example of shaking hands, don't you think it makes sense for there to be some societally agreed upon means of saying hello to people? And of course there is a solid tradition behind shaking hands having to do with the right hand being the sword-bearing hand. Preserving tradition makes sense in and of itself as a means of perpetuating society. So I do think it's useful to understand the underpinnings of our etiquette decisions.

I'm reminded of the scene in Point of No Return where Anne Bancroft is giving etiquette instruction to Bridget Fonda. Bancroft explains to Fonda that when you find a bone in your food, the right thing to do is simply take it out of your mouth and put it on your plate with a minimum of fuss. Trying to hide it or otherwise overcompensate is for those who don't really understand the rules.

Is there one person here who will say he or she would want his or her tablemates to wait? I doubt it.

Of course in a restaurant situation the restaurant shouldn't put the customers in this position at all. But that's not the point. The question is what to do if the situation arises. And I say the most appropriate response is to eat the hot food.

[ngatti]

Of course in a restaurant situation the restaurant shouldn't put the customers in this position at all. But that's not the point. The question is what to do if the situation arises. And I say the most appropriate response is to eat the hot food.

Okay, I feel better.

Nick

[Fat Guy]

Nick: After all, if nobody throws a wrench in the gears, etiquette is easy. What separates the men from the boys is dealing with situations where somebody else has behaved badly. Then you have a real test, and the way you pass the test is to make it better instead of worse. Letting the restaurant's screwup cause seven out of eight people to eat cold food is collective self-flagellation in the name of some silly idea of etiquette that has no support in history or common sense and it just makes a bad situation worse. The way you make the bad situation better is by eating.

[cabrales]

Speaking of shaking hands, there's a not irrelevant analogy of a passenger on board one of the cruise ships that, on a previous voyage, had had passenger illness problems. There was a NYT article within the past week on a reporter who took a trip on such a ship. The crew was touching elbows with passengers, instead of shaking hands, because of the risks of transmission of disease.

I agree with Steven's position, and add the following minor points:

-- At some restaurants, temperature *contrasts* are an integral part of certain dishes. This is the case in a number of the high-ranked restaurants in Spain, say. With time, temperature contrasts intended to be conveyed by the chef become distorted.

-- Aromas can obviously be lost, in addition to temperature, when a dish is allowed to rest. While a diner can take in the aromas of a dish that is not under a cloche as he awaits the return of a missing diner, aromas are often best enjoyed concurrently with the taste in the mouth of the dish.

-- As mentioned before, if the concern is about politeness to the missing person, either the person would understand the early taking in of the dishes or would receive an apology. It would be selfish of the missing person under certain circumstances to insist that an entire table of diners be held up on her account.

-- Also, the remaining diners do not know why a person might have left the table with precision. For example, one sometimes exit the main dining room to make phone calls. Thus, there is no assurance that what diners might expect to be a restroom break would not be coupled with a phone call made (including on the person's mobile phone in the restroom, e.g., to check on work voicemail).

-- The rationale behind starting together is dubious in the first place. If the idea is that diners would not feel rushed to finish, diners eat at different paces in any event and some might feel rushed to finish regardless of when they started. Obviously, in addition to the pace of eating of different diners, different dishes can tend to slow the eating process down or not. For example, if one has to take time to extract remnants of flesh from shellfish without using one's hands, or one would like to eat frogs' legs without using one's hands, that requires more time.

-- If the rationale is that the kitchen can pace the progress of the table as a whole, that rationale is called into question by a person's departure in any event.

[Fat Guy]

Along the lines of touching elbows, the wrist-shake is common among kitchen employees. They touch wrists instead of hands, because the hands are being used for food preparation. And if you're given a kitchen tour and you reach out a hand to greet one of the cooks, you'll likely be offered a forearm instead of a hand.

I hasten to add that those who go ahead and eat should do what they can to make the odd-person-out feel comfortable. That may be saying nothing, it may be giving some sort of reassurance, it may be making a humorous comment, or it may be offering a taste. That would have to be evaluated based on what feels right in the moment.

[awbrig]

I'm reminded of the scene in Point of No Return where Anne Bancroft is giving etiquette instruction to Bridget Fonda. Bancroft explains to Fonda that when you find a bone in your food, the right thing to do is simply take it out of your mouth and put it on your plate with a minimum of fuss.

FG, you really should see the original le Femme Nikita - it is much much better!

[Fat Guy]

I liked each for what it was.

[awbrig]

sorry, i didnt know you had seen the original...

[Fat Guy]

No need to apologize, Brig. What do you think about the etiquette issue we're talking about here? You're an experienced restaurantgoer. How would you handle it?

[awbrig]

i dont know, i just read the post about Bridget Fonda, give me a few minutes...

[awbrig]

oh shoot, can i go ahead reading if everyone hasnt started yet...Damn I always screw that up!

[hollywood]

why do all those upscale restaurants make such a circus of removing all the cloches from all the plates they have put on the table at exactly the same instant ?

Drama?

So they can replace the cloches with berets?

Metalllic berets?

[hollywood]

I'm reminded of the scene in Point of No Return where Anne Bancroft is giving etiquette instruction to Bridget Fonda. Bancroft explains to Fonda that when you find a bone in your food, the right thing to do is simply take it out of your mouth and put it on your plate with a minimum of fuss.

FG, you really should see the original le Femme Nikita - it is much much better!

The opening sequence of the original is killer.

[Fat Guy]

I don't mind if they want to do synchronized cloche-ing, but I have an infinite capacity for being surprised when customers go "ooh" and "aah" as though removing the cloches at the same time is some sort of amazingly difficult feat requiring years of training.

Even worse is when the only thing they have to say about the restaurant the next day is, "Wasn't it amazing how they lifted all those lids at the same time?"

I assure you, any four morons can be taught to do it in about a minute.

[awbrig]

true, but its still cool though if done right!

[hollywood]

I don't mind if they want to do synchronized cloche-ing, but I have an infinite capacity for being surprised when customers go "ooh" and "aah" as though removing the cloches at the same time is some sort of amazingly difficult feat requiring years of training.

I don't think it's the synchronicity they "ooh" and "aha." I think it's looking at what the other people got and trying not to be envious or feel superior. Did you ever do that Christmas thing where people open gifts and get to steal them from one another? Real study in human nature.

[cabrales]

The cloches are not a real solution. The dish still loses part of what it had, albeit perhaps at a slower rate. I have also wondered whether the heat traped inside the cloche might continue, to a very limited extent, the heating up or cooking of the shielded contents in a manner that is undesirable (???).

[awbrig]

I like oohs and ahhs, why wouldnt anyone not want to be ooohed and ahhed, i certainly would....

Sometimes.,like at Ambria in Chicago I love the traditonal silver service and silver chargers and the cloches sp?...i just the love the custom of it and the formality...you know you are in a place that takes its food, or at the least, the service seriously...

Edited December 10, 2002 by awbrig (log)

[hollywood]

The cloches are not a real solution. The dish still loses part of what it had, albeit perhaps at a slower rate.  I have also wondered whether the heat traped inside the cloche might continue, to a very limited extent, the heating up or cooking of the shielded contents in a manner that is undesirable (???).

Which do you think preserve the dishes best, the silver plated ones or the polysytrene ones?

Edited December 10, 2002 by hollywood (log)

[cabrales]

polysytrene ones

hollywood -- I haven't focused in on polystyrene ones. What do they look like?