Chamber Vacuum Sealers, 2011–2014

[GlowingGhoul]

Take a look at the Henkelman Lynx 32 .

Very feature rich, Busch pump, touchscreen controls, and very compact at 360x320x103mm .

The chamber has no "depth". It's a flat surface, with the domed lid providing all chamber space. The only downside I can see is that if you spill something, it's going over the side, instead of being collected in the chamber.

[pep.]

Take a look at the Henkelman Lynx 32 .

Very feature rich, Busch pump, touchscreen controls, and very compact at 360x320x103mm .

The chamber has no "depth". It's a flat surface, with the domed lid providing all chamber space. The only downside I can see is that if you spill something, it's going over the side, instead of being collected in the chamber.

That, and with the H2O sensor it costs even more than the Boxer 35, but doesn't support vacuuming external containers. Furthermore, it seems like you may only use pre-programmed settings, which may be a bit awkward in home cooking. I think it is mainly designed to be operated by semi-trained who have got no clue about vacuum packing, but are able to select a program by name.

[Robert Jueneman]

I've ordered the MiniPack MVS-35XP from PolyScience, and it should arrive in a couple of days.

At least here in the US, they got a special deal from MiniPack to offer it as an exclusive, so you can only get it from PolyScience or a PolyScience dealer. I don't know about the EU or Australia, however.

I carefully considered the Henckleman units, particularly the new Lynks series, but by the time you added the H2O sensor, the vacuum sensor, and the printer, the price was over $4000, whereas the 35XP was closer to $3000 with shipping.

The 35XP uses a Bosch pump, unlike the MVS-31X, which uses an Italian-made DVP. It will be interesting to see what level of absolute vacuum I can achieve with the new unit.

The 35XP offers 100 different programs and includes a printer, which should help avoid the UFO (Unidentified Freezer Objects) problem, as well as dating the product. So each time I prepare something new, I can add that food type to the program, and thereby reduce the effort the next time around. Obviously this would be very handy in a restaurant, or even in a butcher shop -- Cids grocery store here in Taos uses a 45XP in that manner, to package liver slices and other speciality frozen items.

You can check the dimensions on line, but it is slightly larger than the MVS-31X. And wonder of wonders, they have moved away from their odd-ball proprietary thread on the vacuum port, to a standard 1/4" NPT thread, so it is easy to find a threaded barb that will fit in there. I used the same threaded barb on the MSV-31X -- it fit, but just barely -- and then coupled that hose to one that came with my FoodSaver. I put a some teflon tape around the little stud on the FoodSaver hose, and inserted it into the larger hose connected to the barb, and and plug the other end into a FoodSaver container, and it holds vacuum just fine. So you can just screw in the barb and run the unit with the lid open, then unscrew it afterwards. It would be a good idea to set up a program that cuts the seal time to 0, so that you don't risk melting the hose. The advantage is that you can put dry goods (crackers, etc.) in one of the FoodSaver containers, and pull a vacuum on it, without crushing the contents --unlike using a bag. You can also use it to quickly marinate something in one of the square FoodSaver marinade containers, although you can also do that in a bag, using the slanted tray to keep the liquid from running everywhere. Finally, since the FoodSaver containers have a one-way valve, you can use this set-up to hold something like a meringue under vacuum for an extended period of time, although I haven't tried that yet. I'm still looking for a vacuum lid for a Gastronorm hotel pan, as seen in MC, but I haven't found one yet. That might be handy for marinating large pieces of meat, or a whole lot of veggies.

Once the unit arrives and I get to play around with it a bit, I will probably order the gas fill adapter kit, since I already have a regulator and nitrogen tank, and I use the gas fill on my MVS-31X a lot, to preserve bread, etc.

I think the PolyScience MVS-35XP unit comes with the standard two 3mm seal bars, but I think I would rather have a 6mm plus a cut-off strip. Doug at Doug Care told me that I don't need to buy a new seal bar, but instead simply buy the appropriate heating strips and some Teflon tape, and rebuild it myself. I'll think about that, although the seal bars aren't THAT expensive, and it might be nice to be able to switch back and forth.

More feedback next week.

[GlowingGhoul]

There's no need to externally seal FoodSaver containers if they fit into the chamber. Just put the entire closed container into the chamber. The one-way sealing valve allow air to be evacuated and then closes to prevent air rushing in.

Not only does it work well, it's easier than hooking up the hose. You'll have to experiment with different vacuum levels to find the correct on for a particular container, since full vacuum will cause it to collapse.

I cancelled my order for the hose when I discovered this.

All the programs on the Lynx are fully customizable on the Lynx, just like the Boxer. The Lynx has 20, Boxer has 10.

Edited January 22, 2012 by GlowingGhoul (log)

[pep.]

Not only does it work well, it's easier than hooking up the hose. You'll have to experiment with different vacuum levels to find the correct on for a particular container, since full vacuum will cause it to collapse.

I cancelled my order for the hose when I discovered this.

I wasn't talking about FoodSaver-style plastic containers, but about professional GreenVac stainless steel containers (a special kind of GastroNorm containers). Most of those wouldn't even fit into a Boxer 42.

[Robert Jueneman]

Not only does it work well, it's easier than hooking up the hose. You'll have to experiment with different vacuum levels to find the correct on for a particular container, since full vacuum will cause it to collapse.

I cancelled my order for the hose when I discovered this.

I wasn't talking about FoodSaver-style plastic containers, but about professional GreenVac stainless steel containers (a special kind of GastroNorm containers). Most of those wouldn't even fit into a Boxer 42.

My FoodSaver 2.3 L square container just barely fits in my MVS-31X, and so far hasn't shown any signs of collapsing. However, the tall canister is 20 mm high by 17 mm in diameter, and won't fit into any chamber vacuum I know of.

The GreenVac system looks like what I've been looking for. Does anyone know of a US distributor? The Salvis AG site out of Switzerland is very confusing -- I can't figure out what lids to order with what.

[GlowingGhoul]

I haven't found any US source for the greenvac containers. Please let post if you find one.

[Robert Jueneman]

My MV-35XP chamber vacuum arrived a couple of days ago. It is made by MiniPack-Torre in Italy, and is sold exclusively by PolyScience or a PolyScience dealer. There is no online user manual, and the description on the PolyScience website is rather terse, so I thought I would provide some details about its features and operation. I will compare it to the MVS-31X that I've had for a year or more.

Because the single biggest difference between X models and the XP models is the label printer, let me begin by describing what you can include in a label.

The first line is the manufacturer, restaurant name, or owner's name. The second line contains the primary description. The third line is the most flexible and it can contain the ingredients, and you can modify that to say anything you want — there is about six lines available.

The next line is a packaging date and time, followed by an expiration date, the operator’s code or initials, a batch number, and item number within the batch, and then the percentage of vacuum and the percentage of gas, to comply with applicable HAACP regulations. So in my case a sample label looks like this:

****************************

R. Jueneman

****************************

Beef

Rib-eye 35mm 1:37@52.0°C

Pack.: 01/26/2012 11:20

Exp.: 01/26/2013

Op.: RRJ0

Batch: AA0000

Num.: 0004

Vacuum: 100.0% Gas: 00%

****************************

Now, this may be fine for a restaurant, but if you were operating a grocery store or butcher shop, it probably doesn’t go far enough. In particular there is no provision for a bar code, everything is in the same typeface and font size, and for many ingredients there may not be a sufficient amount of space.

Some of the more typical types of products and ingredients are available under the menu selection, but you can still edit the “ingredients” as you wish, one character at a time.

I had hoped that the unit had 100 programs available, but this was apparently a misunderstanding on my part. Only ten programs are available, but for each program you can alter the percentage of vacuum, extra time, gas fill, and the item description. I'll probably keep one program for just generic applications, and develop others for steaks, chicken breasts, corn on the cob, and other vegetables—the things I cook most often.

My understanding is that PolyScience is working with MiniPack, and hopefully they will be able to come up with an interface that is little bit more user-friendly, one that is computer-based, and can offer more extensive features. Hopefully it will be possible to obtain a retrofit kit to update my current unit.

Now, on to the rest of the features:

The interior chamber of the MV-35XP is very similar to that of the 31X, and the seal bar is interchangeable between the two machines. However I was pleased to find that the seal bar that came with the 35XP had a 4 mm seal strip, and a cut off wire, as opposed to the two 3mm strips on my 31X. I find the cutoff wire to be very convenient. If you slop a little bit of food near the edge, the cutoff strip allows you to peel off that portion very neatly, so that it doesn't contaminate your sous vide circulator or whatever.

The overall size of the unit is somewhat larger than the 31X, but that is probably because it uses a Bosch pump instead of the DVP that the 31X uses. It is actually lighter than the 31X.

Unlike the 31X, which has a start button on the front panel, the 35XP starts when you close the lid. Now this might be very handy if you were bagging lots and lots of product at one time, but in my case is a bit of a nuisance, because I have to turn off the machine before I can close the lid just for sanitary reasons.

The 35XP has a soft air release with four different settings, and a gas-fill option at extra cost. I'm in the process of ordering that, because I like that feature on the 31X.

The 35XP also has provision for an external vacuum hose. I had been given to understand that the new unit used a ¼” NPT-thread that you could screw in a hose barb, however, I can only get about one or maybe two threads with my existing barb, so perhaps it is some kind of a metric thread—TBD. If you're using the external vacuum hose, you have to set a parameter on the menu so that you can select START, instead of closing the lid.

The unit was shipped on a wooden pallet, but FedEx refused to bring the unit into the house, despite charging me an extra ninety dollars for residential delivery! Upon unpacking it, I was surprised to see a significant amount of oil in the chamber—perhaps 15ml. It is not clear where this came from, and I am surprised that they shipped it with oil in it. As it was I spent an hour or more running it on the conditioning program, and wiping out the chamber after each use. Somehow oil was being sprayed all over the plastic bag inside the chamber at the end of the cycle. All I can imagine is that there was some oil in the vacuum line, and during the hard air return, the oil was being blown out into the chamber. It is possible that somehow the unit was tipped on its side during transport, but that seems somewhat unlikely. Another possibility, which seem smore likely, is that back-pressure on the oil forced some of the oil into the vacuum line, as the unit was transitioning from essentially sea level to my 7000 foot elevation.

Another problem that has yet to be resolved is how to calibrate the unit for my altitude. There is a calibration menu item included, but the instructions say to let the vacuum run until it reaches 000mbar, and then press Stop. In my case, however, it never goes below 192mbar, so I don't know whether it is properly calibrated not. I guess I'll have to try pulling vacuum on some water at various temperatures commonly in order to determine the absolute level of vacuum that is being achieved.

According to the PolyScience web site, unit is supposed to include a slanted shelf for use with liquids, but none was included in the package. I'm still trying to resolve this.

All in all, despite some initial familiarization problems, I think I'm going to be very happy with the unit.

[GlowingGhoul]

Robert,

Vacuum pumps are never supposed to be shipped with oil in them. Given the amount of your investment, I'd call and insist on a replacement...lord only knows what the hydraulic oil got into and what effect it may have on the long term reliability of the machine. At the very least, the exhaust filter is almost certainly contaminated, reducing the maximum vacuum you can draw.

[Robert Jueneman]

I took the back off of the MV-35XP and checked the pump label. First of all, the pump manufacturer is Busch, not Bosch. The type is a KB 0010E 3Z0, which according to the label and the manual, should be able to reach an absolute pressure of 2 hPa (=mbar). So that gives me something that I can test with the water boiling method. If it won't get close to 2 mbar, I will request a new exhaust filter and seal.

PolyScience is sending me the liquid tray, which was supposed to have been included. And they are working with MiniPack in California, to try to resolve some of the other issues.

Bob

[GlowingGhoul]

Busch is premier vac pump manufacturer, so that's what you want anyway.

Google "Chamber Vacuum Pump shipped without oil" or "Vacuum pump shipped no oil" and you'll see that universaly, oil vacuum pumps are drained before shipping.

At the very least, I'd insist on the warranty being extended, in writing.

[Robert Jueneman]

Busch is premier vac pump manufacturer, so that's what you want anyway.

Google "Chamber Vacuum Pump shipped without oil" or "Vacuum pump shipped no oil" and you'll see that universaly, oil vacuum pumps are drained before shipping.

At the very least, I'd insist on the warranty being extended, in writing.

My understanding is that PolyScience has repeatedly requested MiniPack to ship units without oil in them, as the MVS-31X was. All I can imagine is that perhaps MiniPack is trying to save the consumer a bit of an initial headache. The Busch Installation and Operations manual make it very clear that the vacuum pump should not be lifted, much less shipped, when full of oil.

The unit seems to be working OK for now -- at least it is no longer spraying oil all over everything, and it doesn't appear that anything is broken. However, trying to boil chilled water indicates that I am far from the 2 mbar absolute vacuum the pump should be capable of. 11C boils just fine, 5C won't boil, and 7.5C seems to just simmer.

With a 2 mbar vacuum, it should be capable of boiling at 0C.

I suspect that the exhaust filter is oil-soaked, and in addition the fact that the sight glass doesn't line up with the hole in the back indicates some possible freight damage -- maybe the unit got tipped over, somehow, and the pump slid a bit.

I want to make it very clear that I am not blaming PolyScience in the least, as they have been very helpful and supportive. If the problem was due to shipping damage, they ought to file a claim against FedEx.

But rather than go through the hassle of returning the unit, I have suggested that they send me a new exhaust filter, and we'll see if that solves the problem.

[Robert Jueneman]

According to http://sousvide.wikia.com/wiki/Find_out_how_strong_a_vacuum_your_machine_produces, a boiling point of 7.1C (about 0.4C lower than I tested), corresponds to a vapor pressure of 10 mbar, or 99.0%, as opposed to the 2 mbar that Busch claims.

Now, is a 99.0% vacuum all that terrible? No, not for most applications, I think. However, if it is an indication that something is wrong, or at least less than optimum, that is a different matter.

I suspect that it indicates that the exhaust filter is clogged with oil, and should be replaced.

[GlowingGhoul]

You are more tolerant than I would be Robert. Regardless of whoever's fault it is, they should pick up the damaged unit and replace it with a new one.

[pep.]

You are more tolerant than I would be Robert. Regardless of whoever's fault it is, they should pick up the damaged unit and replace it with a new one.

I agree this doesn't sound too good for a new unit. I find it fascinating, though, that the Minipack machines are apparently readily available in the States, but not in Europe (except in the UK). Strange distribution policy for an Italian company.

[Robert Jueneman]

The story of my MV-35XP has been a long saga, but the end is near.

I would like to publicly thank and commend Joe Stryble and Jason Sayers of PolyScience for their absolutely exemplary customer service. Although I was willing to replace the vacuum hose and the exhaust filter, they were concerned about the possibility of internal damage, and they therefore shipped me a new unit and arranged to pick up the old one. It should arrive tomorrow. They previously shipped me the liquid tray, which instead of being like the slotted type included with the MVS-31X, is more steeply sloped and has a magnetic plate to hold the bag in position. Nice!

Jason personally tested the new unit, and drained the oil before shipping it. Hopefully MiniPack will start shipping units dry, as recommended by Busch.

Before packing up the old unit, I drained the oil, and was quite surprised by what it looked like. The new oil is crystal clear, but the stuff that came out looking like coffee with too much creamer in it, but with a greenish hue. After letting it settle for a couple of days in a glass jar, I was even more surprised to see about 1/4" of grayish sediment. Now, I've never drained the oil in my MVS-31X -- maybe it is nasty looking too, but has anyone else ever seen this?

The only thing I can figure is that I packaged some chicken and rice I had cooked, and it might have still been a bit warm -- maybe some vapor got into the oil somehow? I have no idea where the sediment came from, but I am going to check the oil more carefully, from now on.

BTW, if anyone has a chamber vacuum with a Busch pump, Busch has a 20-page user manual that is much more detailed than the four page version included by MiniPack. In it, they talk about an optional gas ballast. There is also an optional exhaust filter pressure gauge.

The gas ballast is intended for use in conveying condensable vapors. But as I understand it, the pump has to be run within a shut-off value in the suction line, operated for about half a hour so the operating temperature rises the approx. 75C. Then you open the shut-off value, suction out the air and vapor, then close the shut-off valve and operate the pump for another half-hour. Sounds like a lot of work just to make Heston Blumenthal's triple-cooked, vacuum-dried french fries!

I don't know whether the exhaust pressure gauge would fit inside the MiniPack or not. The alternative is to measure the current drawn by the unit while it is operating (using an amp meter, or a Kill-A-Watt meter). If the current drops significantly, that indicates that the exhaust filter has broken through and must be replaced. If the current increases, then the exhaust filter has become clogged, and must be replaced.

[Robert Jueneman]

OK. Finally, all is well with my replacement 35XP, and my apologies to everyone who has been bored to tears by all of this!

I'm still having some problems with the instructions as to how to calibrate the unit for my altitude -- I'm going to have to ask MiniPack California to contact the folks in Italy to resolve the issue, but I can't get below 192 mbar during the calibration phase, whereas the instructions say to press STOP when the vacuum reaches 0 mbar.

However, I tried the boiling water at high vacuum trick, quite successfully. I filled a cup with ice and distilled water, and then submerged a shot class in it, and left it there so the glass itself would be cold. I ran out of patience when the temperature reached 0.045C and wouldn't get any lower, so I poured out about half of the shot glass and put it in the chamber vacuum at 100% plus 40 seconds.

Shortly after reaching the 100% point, the water started to boil, and then the strangest thing happened -- a thin layer of ice formed on top of the boiling water, apparently due to the evaporative cooling. Boiling ice -- damnedest thing I have ever seen, in my entire life!

In any case, I'm sure that the new unit is coming very close to the published 2 mbar final limit, regardless of the calibration questions.

I hope that PolyScience will give me a post-mortem on what they find when they disassemble the returned unit. And again I have nothing but praise for their customer service people, and I'm going to write to their president and tell him that.

After setting up the new unit, I decided to drain and replace the oil in my 9 month old MVS-31X, as well. That oil was somewhat milky-looking, perhaps because of some dissolved water vapor. -- maybe due to Heston Blumenthal's triple-cooked, vacuum-cooled french fries. But there was also some small amount of sediment, which I cannot account for. I am inclined to believe that vapors from cooked food may contain some small amount of solids that get sucked up. But in any case, I'm gong to be checking the oil much more frequently that in the past, and replacing it as required.

[rickangell]

Boiling water at room temperature is fun but don't it often or you'll contaminate the vacuum oil in the pump.

[GlowingGhoul]

Robert:

I'll bet you can observe the "boiling meat" effect now

Do you have a link to the Busch pump manual you referred to?

[Robert Jueneman]

Robert:

I'll bet you can observe the "boiling meat" effect now

Do you have a link to the Busch pump manual you referred to?

The next time I buy some fresh meat, I'm going to try it!

I don't have a link, as it was e-mailed to me. I don't want to violate anyone's copyright, so I would suggest that you contact the Busch representative in your country. In the U.S., I spoke with Dennis Gibson, at dgibson@buschusa.com.

[adefiore]

This is my first post here. I have been lurking around reading all the wonderful information every has to offer.

I have a question for anyone who owns the vp112, can you measure the dimensions front to back. I know it says 24" but I would like to see some exact numbers. I would like to place this in my base cabinet in the kitchen and want to see if this will fit.

Thanks

Anthony

[pep.]

Finally, after Boxer 35 fiasco, I've got a new chamber vacuum sealer. It's a VC999 K2. VC999 is a Swiss company and apparently quite big in the packaging system, though not as widely available as the Henkelman units. They do not release their prices to everyone, but I found a demonstration model available for about 3700 Euros on another site. Of course I got mine a lot cheaper on eBay

It's got six programming slots with a sensor-guided target vacuum level and automatic boiling point detection (with programmable sensitivity). The machine also has soft air ventilation, but as far as I can tell it can't be disabled (somewhat similar to Henkelman's Jumbo series). An optional GreenVac tube is available, as well as a magnetic liquid tray. I'm currently looking to get those.

As you can see, VC999 follows a different philosphy regarding the top of the machine, only a small window is transparent. I guess the whole top can be constructed more sturdy that way. The sealing bar is removable and contains a sealing and a cutting wire (with a single sealing time/temperature setting).

Edited February 15, 2012 by pep. (log)

[GlowingGhoul]

Looks like a great, full featured unit. I don't think there's any problem with soft air all the time. It might slow down production if you were sealing hundreds of bags a day, but I'm sure that won't be a problem

Boil detection too - what a nice bonus.

Good luck pep, I never heard of that brand, but I've never found fault with Swiss engineering!

[blackp]

Looks like a great, full featured unit. I don't think there's any problem with soft air all the time. It might slow down production if you were sealing hundreds of bags a day, but I'm sure that won't be a problem

The only downside I can see to "permanently on" soft air is for vacuum infusing. I have no particular scientific reason for saying this, but the quick burst of atmospheric pressure does seem to cause better infusion.

That said if I had the choice between a machine with permanent soft air or none - I'd take the soft air option every time.

[pep.]

Looks like a great, full featured unit. I don't think there's any problem with soft air all the time. It might slow down production if you were sealing hundreds of bags a day, but I'm sure that won't be a problem

The only downside I can see to "permanently on" soft air is for vacuum infusing. I have no particular scientific reason for saying this, but the quick burst of atmospheric pressure does seem to cause better infusion.

That said if I had the choice between a machine with permanent soft air or none - I'd take the soft air option every time.

Yes, that's why I'm a bit disappointed. Everything else is fully programmable.

Well, my disappointment isn't huge, overall I like the machine very much. Indeed there is a setting that somewhat looks like it might have something to do with soft air, but the seller/service technician told me it is only for maintenance and that he never changed the setting "because there is no point". Despite a follow-up question, he didn't want to tell me what it actually did, however. The setting is called "Sperrzeit" respectively "off-period" (the manual is multilingual), and can be a time up to 99 seconds (0 seconds means it is disabled). They recommend 10 seconds, so this somewhat looks like a setting for soft air to me. Alas, I'm a bit hesitant to try to change it after the response I got from the technician.