The Great Steak Challenge

[mogsob]

Happily, business has provided me with an excuse to indulge in on of my long-time fantasies, as I will be travelling to New York, Florence and Buenos Aires within a few weeks of each other. Yes, the great steak comparison -- US vs. Italy vs. Argentina (thank god it's not the World Cup!).

Ok, I know where to get the best steak in America -- Peter Luger, the hometown hero. And I have contacts in Argentina that have promised me they know the best grills in Argentina.

Which brings me to Tuscany, home of the great white Chianna cow and bistecca fiorentina. Unfortunately, I suspect that the best places to eat this steak lie outside of Florence. I'm looking for the 2 or 3 best in town.

Any guidance would be greatly appreciated!

[Fat Guy]

What a great adventure! Please take extensive notes and photos. I can't wait to read your conclusions.

[Rossco]

I am a jealous, jealous man. Look forward to hearing the results of the taste-off!

I was in Florence in October last year, we found a fantastic Bistecca in a trattoria named 'Baldovino' right next to Santa-Croce Cathedral (I will try to find the address...). The two of us were presented with about 900gms of immaculate chianina - dark, caramelised crust from the roaring wood fire, and beautiful rare meat within. I'd say the steak was a good 3" thick, and butter-soft throughout. Sides were just that - you hardly needed them but they were good nonetheless. We had a potato and artichoke mash and some dressed radicchio di treviso. A packed house, great service and good pricing - I have longed for a repeat since the day I got back to London.

Baldovino is the sister restaurant to Beccofino, a more upmarket Ristorante on the south bank of the Arno, just west of Ponte Vecchio. I have heard good things about Beccofinos cuisine but its not the place for the Bistecca.

[Steve Plotnicki]

I haven't eaten there personally since 1989 but, I always thought the steaks at Tratorria Sostanza on the via Porcelana were fantastic. It was a tip I picked up from R.W. Apple who wrote an article about great steaks for the Times in the early 80's. A few years later in 1986, he published a series of his articles in a fantastic book called "Apple's Guide to Europe." In Chapter IV titled "More Britain" article 5 is called "In a Pope's Eye" and is about the Champanny Inn which is a steakhouse outside of Edinburgh. In describing it Apple says;

"the steak bears comparison with those of Christ Cella in Manhattan or Peter Lugar's in Brooklyn or Morton's in Chicago or Sostanza in Florence"

Of course those were the days when Morton's was a single restaurant and not a chain. And we all mourn the demise of Christ Cella. But I thought that was a pretty high recommendation for Sostanza. It's an inexpensive place as well with people sitting at communal tables. The chicken breast fried in butter is well worth it too and I recall the Tuscan beans as being glorious. But as I said, I haven't been in over a dozen years but people I've sent within the last few years have come back with a report of excellent.

As an aside, the Apple book is a fantastic book and well worth the effort to find a copy in the used book bins. It has terrific writing on eating on England as well as good short pieces on things like visiting Christopher Wren churches in London. It also has a great article on eating in Lyon and has a good review of traditional Paris bistros which were at the top of their game at the time.

Edited December 6, 2002 by Steve Plotnicki (log)

[mogsob]

Steven P -- thanks for the tip on the Apple book! Sostanza was, indeed, already on the list from fond memories in the 1980s also and my hotel is, happily, located a few blocks away.

I still can't believe Christ Cella closed. So few of the old school steakhouses are left -- the new ones are all modeled on The Palm, which is a bad thing.

[Robert Schonfeld]

A really special opportunity, Mogsob. I'm looking forward to your report.

You might even try the Italian Cultural Office, in addition to the usual food sources, for an idea in Florence. If nothing else, you may get a bunch of Italians to call home and ask their families. Also, Faith Wellinger lives in Florence, and would surely have the skinny.

[Charles Smith]

I've not had a great bistecca fiorentina, only good versions, but I wouldn't miss Fuori Porta- a wine bar,

Via dei Monte all Croci, 10 Tel.: 011-39-55-234-2483-

Just outside one of the old city gates- one of the best wine lists in the city, with good hearty food-

[peterpumkino]

Wow, what a challenge! Having lived in the US and in Italy and having had a girlfriend in Buenos Aires (who said that the steaks at Bernes were terrible!) I have more than a passing interest on this challenge. Personally I think that Argentina will win, but who knows? Very interesting, let us know.

BTW I ate a fantastic steak at an area known for the best steaks in Buenos Aires. Unfortunately I don't remember the name of the area but I do remember that it was on the Plate and there were quite a few steak restaurants and all seemed unbelievable and VERY cheap.

ps I had a great bistecca on the top of a hill just outside of Florence but, again, I can't remember the name, sorry.

[marcus]

Although not terrible, Bern's steaks are overrated and not at all exceptional. If she has said that about Peter Luger, then it would be a comment that needed to be reckoned with. My understanding is that Argentine steaks are much less marbled, yet still tender and well flavored. I would love to try, but unfortunately I've never been.

[Steve Plotnicki]

If you get the right steaks in Tuscany they will kill Argentinian beef. I haven't met anyone who came back from Argentina who sang the praises of the beef as being better then the U.S. or the best breeds in Europe. I understand that one of the reasons is that they don't age their beef. Why I do not know.

Pumpkino - I thought you were an expert on Italian food?

[Charles Smith]

Is there still an issue with Mad Cow and true bistecca fiorentina?

[marcus]

I don't know about aging, but most significantly they are grass fed and not put in feedlots and fed corn for the last few weeks before slaughter.

[Jonathan Day]

I am far from an expert on Argentina, and am not a great eater of steaks. But I have visited Buenos Aires several times in the last year.

In general the steaks there are good, but I have had better in Tuscany, primarily in small village places rather than in the large towns.

Argentinian beef, at its best, has a lot of flavour but is not very tender. For me the magic of a great bistecca is that you don't have to trade off flavour for texture. And the flavour profile of Argentinian steaks is somehow different: a bit more acid, perhaps, and more (pleasantly) bitter notes, than you find elsewhere.

Your friends in Buenos Aires will take or direct you to good places, but if you have free time I would highly recommend a newish place called "Sucre", in Bajo Belgrano (address Sucre 676, phone 4782-9082). A stunning room, with a fireplace at one end and an open kitchen at the other, with special tables overlooking the kitchen where you can watch your dishes being prepared. Magnificent wine/cigar "cellar", built into a giant column in the centre of the room. Cuisine is simple but precise, and the ingredients are good. I had foie gras and "cochinillo" (baby pig, cooked on a spit) ... both were delicious.

[peterpumkino]

If you get the right steaks in Tuscany they will kill Argentinian beef. I haven't met anyone who came back from Argentina who sang the praises of the beef as being better then the U.S. or the best breeds in Europe.

Pumpkino - I thought you were an expert on Italian food?

Mr Plotnicki,

I am dreadfully sorry if I go to so many restaurants that I cannot remember the name of some of them. As I mentioned I had a marvelllous steak on a hill outside of Florence but I just don't remember the name. Again I'm dreadfully sorry.

Also could you direct me to the specific area where I said I was an 'expert on Italian food'. I like Italian food as cooked in Italy! That does not make me an expert however it does confirm that I know what I like. I do not really care what other people like including you Mr. Plotnicki.

Plus, unlike you, I have met someone who sang the praises of Argentinian beef over the US (not just Bernes) and her name is Sylvana Dass - and she does not consider herself an expert in Argentian food either. Maybe it's a matter of opinion again, Mr Plotnicki?

[Steve Plotnicki]

No it's a matter of expertise. Just like everything else in life is.

[Varmint]

I can only expect that the Argentinian beef would be considered an absolutely tremendous (and, of course, unfortunate) value with the collapse of Argentina's economy. Please be sure to keep track of the prices of the various renditions.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Most people I know who have gone to Argentina are in the wine business and they go to visit the wineries. To a person, while they like the beef, all think it inferior to American beef.

[peterpumkino]

No it's a matter of expertise. Just like everything else in life is.

There you go again Mr Plotinski. No, it's not a matter of expertise, it's a matter of personal opinion. Are you familiar with that democratic principle? It means that I love pasta, you don't. It's got nothing to do with expertise (what's that anyway?).

I do not need to look to others to tell me what is good and what is not. I simply use my own preference.

[oraklet]

excuse me for being perhaps impertinent, peterpumpkino, but given

"I do not really care what other people like including you Mr. Plotnicki."

why then do you come to egullet?

[Steve Plotnicki]

Pumpkino - You are describing preference which you are entitled to. I am describing quality and the ability to discern it. If you prefer the steaks at the Aberdeen Steakhouse in London to the best place in Firenze, you would be entitled to that opinion. But you would also be a moron who knew nothing about steak. You can't have it both ways. Either knowing about good food is an expertise that is practiced, or it is totally about liking what you like. And I don't believe you really believe it's about the later. I just think you resort to that argument when you reach the end of your expertise. The steak in the hills of Firenze wasn't great because you liked it, you liked it because it may have been a great steak.

The thing is, you seem to have eaten in all the right places. But, and I'm not saying this in a bad way, you don't seem to have experience talking about food from the perspective I am describing. And for example, when someone here (most likely me,) says something like, pasta is the bane of Italian cuisine because it has held it back from advancing all these years, don't take it personally. It has nothing to do with a bowl of pasta at your favorite Milanese tratorria being delicious. We all know it's delicious. But in our world it can be delicious and a bane at the same time.

[peterpumkino]

excuse me for being perhaps impertinent, peterpumpkino, but given

"I do not really care what other people like including you Mr. Plotnicki."

why then do you come to egullet?

To hear gems from you, oraklet, of course

Seriously I do not have to like or agree with or want to hear from an individual to enjoy the conversation on Egullet and, in my own humble way, I DO contribute (I know that from private emails from people who have been to restaurants that I have reccommended and enjoyed the experience).

[jaybee]

Having lived in the US and in Italy and having had a girlfriend in Buenos Aires (who said that the steaks at Bernes were terrible!) I have more than a passing interest on this challenge. Personally I think that Argentina will win, but who knows?

I have had the (reputedly) best steak Argntina has to offer at a place called La Cabaña, in Buenos Aires. It is (or was ten years ago) the "Peter Lugers of Argentina. The steal served was enormous but lacked the great flavor of Peter Lugers or even the best US Strip steak. I have had the Bistecca Fiorentina at Sostanza and it was superb and memorable. The herbs and spices used while cooking over the wood ash fire make it unique. I would say, Mr. Pumskinowitz, that Argentine beef at its best is not anywhere near American beef at its best..

[oraklet]

but peterpumpkino,

recipes, techniques, reccomendations etc., all the egullet stuf is expertise and/or opinions. i believe you wouldn't contribute (as you do on a much higher level than i do, admittedly) if you didn't find it worthwhile, and this would only be the case if you feel yourself among peers, and this again is judged in terms of liking/expertise. so logically you must appreciate the expertise/opinions on egullet. i mean, a conversation going "i like this" "aw, bullshit, i like that" isn't very meaningful.

i'm not saying this to divert the thread. and i'll withdraw now, having only had la bistecca once. it was lovely, by the way. but that's just my opinion.

[macrosan]

I've had Argentine steak in London at an allegedly "great" steakhouse, and I've had several excellent steaks in Italy, and I've had dozens of excellent steaks in England, but probably my best 20 steaks ever were all in the USA. Peter Luger, The Old Homestead, Ben Benson in New York, Palm in Washington, The Trail Dust in Dallas, Thoroughbreds and New York Prime in Myrtle Beach, and others whose names I forget.

In my experience, it's truly difficult to get a bad steak in the USA.

[Adam Balic]

I had an excellent steak at "Da Delfina" in Artimino, which is well worth the effort of getting to.

My relatives in Chianti (Gaioli) keep mentioning a genius-insane butcher in Panzano, so if you are self catering you could try him