Trotter's and Trio lately

[Suvir Saran]

But I would find it refreshing if a pastry chef would recalibrate a banana split to incorporate something savoury. Like making it with Kulfi and a sauce that was spiked with something savoury. After eating 10 dessert courses in Chicago I went to Boston the following Monday night. And overall I enjoyed the kulfi and banana cinammon ice cream I had at Vanessa's in Cambridge more then my fancier desserts in Chicago.

You know I remember very little of my last meal at CT. Shame! Both to my memory and the restaurant.

What is even more shocking is that I do not remember the desserts. Very unlikely for me as I live for them. The favorite part of my meal. Steve, like you I look for substantial yet creative play with old classics. It can be done. I have experienced it... But it takes a desire to serve great stuff. I think Ed Schoenfeld says the same thing far more eloquently in the Q&A in the thread about Dim Sum and GoGo.

But so many people celebrate the chef and the restaurant, that I truly believe I must have gone on an off day.

What do you say Awbrig? You seem to have had plenty of meals there... and one quite recently, even after Steve P's. What was your experience like?

[Jinmyo]

Who would not want Banana Split?  Seriously.

Me. Seriously.

I was talking of mere mortals.

Not immortal beings with perhaps nothing mortal.

Suvir, I'm old but I'm not that old.

Thanks for the input, cabrales. This is something that I for some reason find myself thinking about. After all, it's a pretty fundamental issue.

[Steve Plotnicki]

I don't understand Cabby's comments about J-G vs Trotter's as I find that J-G has the most inspired cuisine in NYC when they are on their game. In fact they are one of the few places in town where they even have a defined cuisine. Most of the places just serve French food without a whole lot of personality to it. Now Trotter's I don't see as inspired at all. But like I said, it seems to revolve around a cooking philosophy that I haven't yet put my finger on. That will make do in lieu of a strong cuisine.

[cabrales]

(11) Grilled Wagyu Strip Loin with Lobster Mushrooms

This dish was fairly good. The beef, from Texas, was not as delicious as other Wagyu preparations I have had, and arrived in the form of 3-4 smallish slices of regular beef slicing thickness. **One problem, for me, was that the meat appeared to have been presented medium. I would have preferred a rare preparation, and probably should have been more proactive about communicating that preference to the serving team member.**  ...

Upon review of my own post, I note that the Wagyu beef was cooked more than I like it. However, it was presented medium and I would not consider that overcooked for beef necessarily, even though the slices of Wagyu were not particularly thick.

Please ignore my inadvertent post in the other Trotter's thread.

I don't understand Cabby's comments about J-G vs Trotter's as I find that J-G has the most inspired cuisine in NYC when they are on their game. In fact they are one of the few places in town where they even have a defined cuisine. Most of the places just serve French food without a whole lot of personality to it.

Steve -- I have never liked the cuisine at Jean-Georges, and that is not for want of having tried. I find his cuisine unbalanced. It's different from the other NY four-stars all right -- it's less balanced, for my subjective purposes. I gave J-G as the example because, relative to my own tastes, it is the weakest of the NYT four-stars.

Note that I have only had one meal ever at Trotter's. Any assessments of it might therefore be premature.

Edited December 2, 2002 by cabrales (log)

[Suvir Saran]

Who would not want Banana Split?  Seriously.

Me. Seriously.

I was talking of mere mortals.

Not immortal beings with perhaps nothing mortal.

Suvir, I'm old but I'm not that old.

Thanks for the input, cabrales. This is something that I for some reason find myself thinking about. After all, it's a pretty fundamental issue.

Immortal does not mean old. It means Special, powerful, blessed and out of the ordinary.

All great things to be and aspire to be.

[ballast_regime]

from many recent meals at charlie trotter's, i'd have to say that in many ways it is preferable to a lot of meals that i've had at new york's top rung of restaurants--namely, daniel, lespinasse, le bernardin, jean georges, et al. the reason for such is that, in many ways, i find a lot of what trotter's kitchen does to be very conceptually different from most of the french stalwarts in nyc, and, if anything, refreshing, which is a dead horse that has been mauled many times over in other forums (and i'm not about to go on about it ad nauseum here). unfortunately for trotter, his kitchen is very imperfect, its dishes executed in a manner that one could describe as incomplete and sloppy, and conversely as organic and naturalistic (both assessments would be correct in my mind, because there are dishes the kitchen churns out where the in-the-moment cooking--sometimes where a dish is produced that is different than expected--bolsters the dining experience, but there are just as many moments where it detracts and is ultimately frustrating).

perhaps the best thing i can say about charlie trotter's is that it is, to me, the most frustrating restaurant in the country. i have had some of the best dishes i've eaten in the past two years there (a simple salad of raw or slightly-cooked shellfish with watercress and horseradish comes to mind), but it also has disappointed me (by the inedibility of certain dishes, like a daurade dish that was horribly cooked and that came with little, if any, accoutrements to divert my attention from the poor quality of the fish) more than any top-end restaurant. daniel is certainly more homogenous, and in some ways boring, but i know that i will rarely receive a dish that sucks as bad as some of the ones i've had at trotter's. i suppose that those who eat at trotter's have to go and expect, well, heterogeneity in the meal, i.e., that it's going to have a lot of ups and downs, and that, in order to have a decent meal there, you have to pretty much ignore the crap that can occasionally come out (and believe me, it is indeed crap). whether this is an appropriate way to dine, i don't know. i guess it depends upon the diner. i do know that i probably won't be returning to trotter's any time soon, but it is a restaurant whose highs are very noticeable and endearing, if not a little quirky. i much prefer the simplicity of bouley's cuisine, which is more focused and not replete with many of the wrong-turns that trotter's takes.

i have heard many good things about trio, but have yet to eat there. i was impressed with your report, steve, so keep it up (as always).

[cabrales]

ballast_regime -- In certain circumstances, I give a restaurant credit for trying to exceed the "mold", even though it may fall short. I believe that Trotter's is trying for something different, and that is a good thing. I also happen to believe that CT's is among the stronger restaurants in the US, even though that too may also not be saying too much, with all respect to restaurants in the US.

Not that I don't value consistency, but if it's consistency based on cuisine that is uninspired, that could be worse under certain circumstances than cuisine that has highs and lows (not that I can make that assessment with respect to CT's cuisine at this point).

Edited December 3, 2002 by cabrales (log)

[Steve Plotnicki]

Ballast Regime - I thank you wholeheartedly for that report and I point to it as a perfect example of the information on eGullet being better information then what you can get from traditional media sources.

What I find frustrating about a place like Trotter's, is that part of the reason they continue to be erratic is that the level of restaurant reporting in this country, and as such diner expectations, are at a lower level then the standard I would like to see reviewers apply. Considering how many rave reviews you see about CT's, my meal and your descriptions of meals do not jibe with those raves. I wish the standard applied was more discriminating. We would all eat better for it.

[awbrig]

Considering how many rave reviews you see about CT's, my meal and your descriptions of meals do not jibe with those raves. I wish the standard applied was more discriminating. We would all eat better for it.

I think I find my standards to be pretty discriminating and have eaten at Charlie Trotters probably more than anyone here...Ive been there close to 100 times.

I have never had a bad meal there and have had the most fantastic orginal and exciting dining experiences in my life there. I ate there last week and will be there again next weekend.

Charlie Trotters is such highly regarded for a reason - because it it a truly memorable experience with outstanding innovative cuisine and polished service - not because that the reviewers and the general public have low standards...thats absurd. Im sorry Ct didnt blow you away, Steve, but it continues to blow me away each and every time and for others that havent seen the pics of my second to last visit, here it is:

http://forums.egullet.org/ibf/index.php?ac...1924&hl=trotter

Ill post the new pics and descritions in the next few days...

Edited December 3, 2002 by awbrig (log)

[mikeczyz]

Steve-

Next time you might consider ordering the 8 course chef's tasting menu at Trio. 5 out of the eight choices you made for your custom menu are already on it...

mike

I should also add that even though some of the wines at Trio may not be most impressive drunk on their own, when tasted with the food, they make alot more sense. A perfect example would be the Schrock Muscat with the roasted halibut. Sommelier Joe Catterson just picked up chicago magazine's best wine program, so give him a chance before dismissing his choices as 'lame.'

Edited December 3, 2002 by mikeczyz (log)

[Steve Plotnicki]

Awbrig honey, how is it that Ballast-Regime and I managed to have amazingly similar experiences with bad dorade and you have only been served perfect meals? I am just a mere pup at Trotter's, but Ballast-Regime seems pretty expert to me. And he says that the place is erratic. In fact he says that it occassionaly turns out "crap" dishes. What do you think accounts for the differences in opinion here?

Edited December 3, 2002 by Steve Plotnicki (log)

[awbrig]

Are you guys crazy!?!?

Trotters does not turn out "crap" dishes...thats a plain ridiculous comment - even you would agree, Steve...

Im sorry the fish dishes werent to your liking and I am betting that Charlie, himself, would also feel badly about the dishes that disappointed you and would try to make it up to you the next time...

Charlie Trotters is the best restaurant in Chicago and a contender across the country for 100 reasons...

[tommy]

Awbrig honey

yippee!!!! [one for the books]

[cabrales]

On "crap" dishes, what is the meaning intended? If "crap" means "not optimally constructed or implemented", I suspect that many restaurants in the US could produce crap dishes at least some of the time (if not much more frequently, which would be my subjective assessment), with no implications on whether CT produces crap dishes.

I would agree that CT is a contender across the US, although that isn't necessarily saying a whole lot in my own book relative to restaurants in France.

Edited December 3, 2002 by cabrales (log)

[Suvir Saran]

Considering how many rave reviews you see about CT's, my meal and your descriptions of meals do not jibe with those raves. I wish the standard applied was more discriminating. We would all eat better for it.

I think I find my standards to be pretty discriminating and have eaten at Charlie Trotters probably more than anyone here...Ive been there close to 100 times.

I have never had a bad meal there and have had the most fantastic orginal and exciting dining experiences in my life there. I ate there last week and will be there again next weekend.

Charlie Trotters is such highly regarded for a reason - because it it a truly memorable experience with outstanding innovative cuisine and polished service - not because that the reviewers and the general public have low standards...thats absurd. Im sorry Ct didnt blow you away, Steve, but it continues to blow me away each and every time and for others that havent seen the pics of my second to last visit, here it is:

http://forums.egullet.org/ibf/index.php?ac...1924&hl=trotter

Ill post the new pics and descritions in the next few days...

Awbrig,

Thanks for the link honey. The photographs are most wonderful.

The Seared Foie Gras looks delectable. Was it as tasty as it looks?

How as the cauliflower with the caviar?

Cannot wait for the next batch of photographs.

Edited December 3, 2002 by Suvir Saran (log)

[Steve Plotnicki]

Sorry Awbrig but that dorade was a crap dish. In concept, ingredients and follow through. I mean fishy fish? And Ballast-Regime has had the same experience. And a fish dish with pineapple clashed with the rest of the cuisine.

But let me ask you about CT being a contender for the best restaurant in the country. How many of them have you been to?

Actually I can say that Trio in time will be a better restaurant then Trotter's. It's already a much more interesting restaurant. If they massage the rough edges it will eventually blow Trotter's away.

Edited December 3, 2002 by Steve Plotnicki (log)

[awbrig]

Sorry Awbrig but that dorade was a crap dish. In concept, ingredients and follow through. I mean fishy fish? And Ballast-Regime has had the same experience. And a fish dish with pineapple clashed with the rest of the cuisine.

But let me ask you about CT being a contender for the best restaurant in the country. How many of them have you been to?

Actually I can say that Trio in time will be a better restaurant then Trotter's. It's already a much more interesting restaurant. If they massage the rough edges it will eventually blow Trotter's away.

Steve,

Is this argument about whether Charlie Trotters puts out crap dishes? Is this argument about whether noone can correctly judge/review Charlie Trotters except Steve Plotnicki? Is this about whether Ive eaten in enough restaurants in the U.S or in Europe, for that matter, to make my opinion count?

Maybe you are right that Trio will someday beat Trotters...Could happen, stranger things happen all the time.

However, one only needs to look at all of the accolades Charlie has racked up in a little over a decade...including Wine Spectator's The Best Restaurant in the United States 2000 and

The Best Restaurant in the World for Wine and Food, 1998

Heres a few other awards CT has won by sheer luck

http://www.charlietrotters.com/restaurant/awards.asp

Anyway, I have been to many of the top restaurants in the U.S, though probably not as many of you, including Tru, le Bernardin, Daniel, le Cirque 2000, Mansion on Turtle Creek, Emerils, Sanford, Aqua, Picasso, Spago, The Ivy, Blackbird and Ambria and have been cooked for personally and privately by Eric Ripert, Michel Trama and, of course, Charlie Trotter. Does that make me more sophisticated or enable my opinion to be more respected, I doubt it but who knows...

all I know is that Charlie Trotters is in a class among the elite of the elite and I love the experiences we have there. If you don't like Trotters or are too put off by one or 2 dishes don't go back there...makes it easier for me to get in and eat all those "crap dishes"

Edited December 3, 2002 by awbrig (log)

[Steve Plotnicki]

Well it should be undisputed that Trotter can put out crap dishes because two of us have reported on them. And Marcus added a comment about Trotter's inconsistancy. So I think you are going to have a hard time convincing us that it's the best restaurant in the country. But your list of restaurants is a good one. I always wanted to eat at the Mansion and I have the cookbook. But I wasn't suggesting that Trotter's shouldn't be under consideration for the best restaurant in the country, I was just trying to find out what you were comparing it to when you said that. But you shoiud go eat at the French Laundry. I think you will find it superior to Trotter's, even though it sounds as if it isn't performing at the same level it used to perform at.

[robert40]

I would be willing to bet before the night is over I can find two people on the web that said Robuchon put out crap dish's!

But what would it prove?

[Steve Plotnicki]

There's crap and then there's crap. The dorade I am describing is at a level of crapdom that is well beneath anywhere I've eaten in France other then La Pyramide which I think is total crap.

[Fat Guy]

Any restaurant in the world can, on any given night, serve a bad dish, multiple bad dishes, or an entire bad meal. That is the simple reality of the restaurant universe. Those of us who are loyalists and champions of particular restaurants and chefs don't want it to be true of the places we love, but it's true nonetheless. More importantly, by being a partisan of a given restaurant one improves one's chances of getting the restaurant's best performances on a consistent basis and one also enters the restaurant in a more forgiving mood than the stranger might.

Charlie Trotter's is the real thing. It's a serious restaurant, not a pretender. I think most experienced diners with good judgment agree on that point. The style is not for everyone. The reports I get and my personal experience indicate high highs and relatively low lows. Pierre Gagnaire is the same way, as is most any restaurant where a lot of impromptu cooking occurs and where the chef doesn't accept the prevailing culinary fundamentals and instead goes it alone.

Plotnicki, a question: Did you say anything about the bad dish? If not, and if you were to return some day and get another crap dish, I'd be interested to see how the restaurant would handle a serious in-the-moment critique.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Well the restaurant wasn't soliciting criticism. I basically didn't eat the dish and left it over but nobody asked me about it. And my general policy about these things is that I won't say anything unless asked, unless I am totally outraged. This reminds me of a story from the French Laundry. On our last visit there was so much food that my wife decided not to finish one of her courses because it was too rich. Can't remember exactly what it was. A few minutes after they cleared the table the Maitre 'd appeared and was inquiring whether there was anything wrong with the dish. "The chef asked me to ask you Madame......." So let's just say that as good as the service was at CT, they didn't offer the same level of attentiveness and caring that we experienced at FL.

On this Charlie Trotter's "real deal" or "best restaurant" thing, maybe it was true once upon a time, but even if it was the case I'm not sure if it's true anymore. Not that they can't cook some great dishes but, the style is sort of old school at this point. You can get that style of cooking almost anywhere. And it's not just a matter of redundancy, I was sort of expecting that before I walked in the door. But what was the most surprising thing to me about the meals is how the food at Trio could have more flavor to it on an overall basis then the food at CT. I only expected the food at Trio to be weirder not to taste better. The other thing about Trotter that doesn't work in their favor is that considering they only serve tasting menus, which means they aren't preparing that many dishes any given evening, the inconsistancy and erratic performance that Marcus and Ballast-Regime reported on and I experienced makes them look bad. It doesn't make any sense really that given those circumstances the kitchen doesn't work at a higher level.

Edited December 3, 2002 by Steve Plotnicki (log)

[Jinmyo]

The other thing about Trotter that doesn't work in their favor is that considering they only serve tasting menus, which means they aren't preparing that many dishes any given evening, the inconsistancy and erratic performance that Marcusa and Ballast-Regime reported on and I experienced makes them look bad. It doesn't make any sense really that given those circumstances the kitchen doesn't work at a higher level.

[ballast_regime]

i find this thread very interesting for several reasons, among them being the implications for a restaurant's approach to the individual dining experience (i.e., of a trotter-gagnaire approach versus, say, those of the ducasse-boulud persuasion) and also how we, as diners, look at our roles as participants in the whole "food-down-our-mouths" affair.

but, first, a simple preface: just because i have received some "crap dishes" at trotter's--and by crap, i mean simply inedible--it doesn't mean that i discount the ostensible talent of trotter's kitchen, which is, in many ways, very versatile and refreshing. many could argue, quite successfully, that trotter's kitchen is not only more interesting than most of the top kitchens in new york, but that it is also prone to producing some of the greatest culinary highs one will experience on this, if any, continent. problem is, one has to be willing to either (i) be disappointed and move one (which is sort of the same advice dale chihuly offers his aspiring glass-blowers), or (ii) to simply ignore the occasional lows (i.e., crap) that may or may not come from the dining experience. for me, trotter's kitchen "assembles" dishes in that his plates seem to be a collection of (often-times) perfectly-cooked vegetables and sauces. his cuisine very much reminds of john cage's aleatory or "chance" music, where notes are chosen according to some scheme that isn't necessarily apparent to the listener. this approach is neither good or bad; it just is. it is up to the input of the person experiencing the cuisine to determine its validity, whether it is indeed crap or if it's great. there are a lot of off-moments, where something that is poorly-cooked is plopped down in front of a customer. c'est la vie, man, because that is the trotter way. like "beavis and butthead," trotter is at times quantitatively great, but his highs are remarkably higher than most restaurants in this country.

does someone like having peaks and valleys?

this having been said, there are ways to receive a great meal at trotter's. first, his kitchen is more talented with vegetal foodstuffs than any other, followed by fish (assuming it's prepared in a very minimal, asian-styled [re: japanese] way). the kitchen's midas touch quickly drops off when it comes to game and meats; perhaps this is just my personal preference, but i tend to hear similar sentiments from fellow dining companions and other foodie acquaintances. second, as fat guy has pointed out numerous times, repeat customers are often more rewarded (and deservedly so) than first or second-time customers. by this point, if the kitchen knows you, you may receive a more personalized meal. i have. third, trotter has often spoken many times that his ultimate restaurant would be one where there would be no menu, where the customer could sit down and order whatever he or she felt like having at any given moment. knowing that this is his end goal, i would strongly recommend that someone assertively taken control of their dining experience at trotter's. let them know you're willing to be adventurous, what your preferences are, and so on. fourth, dine when trotter is there. he has been out of the kitchen A LOT lately because of his (now defunct) plans for a restaurant in london (thankfully). i have noticed that his kitchen is a lot more sketchy when he was absent. considerably.

i don't think that trotter's cuisine is as cutting edge as, say, gagnaire's because it is so sprawling and expansive; it seems to me to be a jazzy riff on what is popular at any given moment at other innovative high-end restaurants in the world (i.e., trotter doesn't necessarily seem to be inventing a new cuisine to me; instead, he is awesome at reading the pulse of the culinary world at large and then assimilating and reproducing his own version of it [which isn't necessarily saying that he "rips off" others, but that he does a lot of creative paraphrasing]), but with a novel, "trotterized" twist.

if you haven't been, go.

if you've been and liked it, go again.

if you've been and didn't like it, go or don't go.

really, everything is ultimately up to each of us.

[Jinmyo]

ballast, an excellent post.

I know he loves vegetables.

I wonder what the problem is with meat and game?