Babbo (First 6 Years)

[Fat Guy]

I can see the potential for having the best Italian meal in the U.S. there. But my underlying question is, what does that mean? It doesn't necessarily get you to "best or favorite restaurant in NYC" which is what you hear fairly often.

People who say Babbo is the best restaurant in New York are speaking from a certain perspective: They probably already prefer Italian-style food to French and New American, and they are probably influenced by a number of non-food issues such as Babbo's very competitive pricing on both food and wine. And of course popularity can be a self-fulfilling prophecy. So while they're saying best they mean favorite, to draw the distinction that Zagat draws.

If you're coming from the perspective of someone who thinks Italian food is by definition inferior to French, and on top of that your Italian food gold standard is the best stuff in Italy, then sure saying something is the best Italian in New York is like saying something is the best dim sum in Monrovia.

[Nick]

Nick - Please do not try and characterize my editorializing of the interaction as rudeness on my part or anyone elses. You have no idea what you are talking about.

[Robert Schonfeld]

letting the chef cook for you can be a good thing

Edited December 6, 2002 by Robert Schonfeld (log)

[macrosan]

Babbo is my favorite restaurant in New York, but I would never call it the best restaurant in New York. The former is a subjective assessment of the totality of dining experience, including food, atmosphere, service, price and so on. The latter could make no real sense, apart from maybe being a cry for attention

[Steve Plotnicki]

But a restaurant is a business that by definition should strive to do its regular everyday best for every regular customer with its regular everyday offerings

[Wilfrid]

Interesting, and I find myself not too surprised by the comments here. "Too busy and overwhelmed" I think Steve said. Yes, my impression from my one visit is that a restaurant operating at that frantic level of hyperactivity is not going to be able to focus very carefully on each dish it sends out - nor, in a clinical business sense, does it really need to.

It's hard to think of a restaurant in New York where a better Italian meal is a possibility - I haven't been to Lupa, and San Domenico is not really running in that race - but I can readily see why the potential at Babbo often goes unfulfilled.

[Rachel Perlow]

(BTW, I asked FG to move my post to this thread).

[Robert Schonfeld]

But that isn't the standard that most businesses operate by.

[Nick]

... for customers not known to the owner or staff, and not ordering very expensive wine, .....

I guess I have to be let it known here and now that I'm not a wine drinker. I've never gained an appreciation for it.

Does this mean that if I go to a decent restaurant in NYC (or anywhere else for that matter) and don't order wine, the meal will be sub-par? I can't just go there to have good food?

[Ron Johnson]

Last time I was at Babbo, I was sitting next to a minor celeb type. He and his date were getting the big shot treatment. My date and I were not. However, rather than get pissed because I was not being treated like a big shot (please ask the kitchen to cook just for me) and start treating the server like crap, I decided to sit back and enjoy four courses of brilliantly prepared Italian food and two bottles of exquisite wine. Of course, thats just me, other courses of conduct may vary.

[Wilfrid]

A question which probably derseves its own thread, Nick. I don't know about sub-par, but there's no doubt in my mind that your server - and therefore potentially the kitchen - will draw conclusions about you from your wine order. I don't say that's fair, but I'm sure it happens. Over the years, I have dined out a lot, for business reasons as well personal hygiene (before someone else says it), and wait staff are often visibly reassured that they are not dealing with a stingy sad sack when I order the booze.

[Fat Guy]

Yes, it's worthy of its own thread.

[mogsob]

Later on in the evening, Susan said that if we were known to Mario or the restaurant, there is no way we would have been served cold lamb chops.

[Robert Schonfeld]

Does this mean that if I go to a decent restaurant in NYC (or anywhere else for that matter) and don't order wine, the meal will be sub-par? I can't just go there to have good food?

[Toby]

It was suggested that I send my not-hot calamari back to be reheated. The whole point of the dish, as I remembered from reading the recipe in the cookbook, was that this was a very impromptu treatment in which the squid would be just cooked enough (about 2 to 3 minutes) so that they would be opaque and tender. Once squid get past that point they toughen up and have to be cooked much longer to get tender again. The lukewarm squid were tender but tasteless; the whole dish seemed beyond help.

[Nick]

Yes, it's worthy of its own thread.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Well I have to say that from the outset I was looking for value oriented wines and told the sommelier as such. So the $36 Gini and the $145 Spinetta do not exactly qualify as expensive wines. There are people there ordering $2000 bottles of 1985 Sassacaia. But I have to say that a usual benefit of BYO is that you arrive with expensive wines that come from your own cellar. And if Babbo allowed BYO, I would have brought a 1985 Conterno Vigna Collonello which one can buy these days for $135. And maybe the sommelier would have taken a different view towards me if he saw that bottle.

But now that I am writing this, I remember the following. I asked for a wine list at the bar so I brought the list with me to the table. After a few minutes the sommelier appeared and asked if I needed any help. I told him that I probably didn't need any because I had tasted almost all the wines on the list and that I was looking for something interesting and which had good value. Well he didn't take the bait. 8 times out of ten when you do that with a sommelier he will smile, recognize that you are a wine lover and a pride will come over him and he will point to the treasures on the list. This guy was rather clinical about it and he started asking me what region I was interested in an which terroir (I love describing Italian things with French terms .) What I was really trying to get him to do was to tell me what the hidden gems on the list were. Those esoteric wines that he gets because he is Babbo that I might not be able to see anywhere but as a wine enthusiast he figures I would appreciate.

I guess this issue, and the ones discussed so far, are a matter of pride of place. When I asked about letting the kitchen cook for me, or asked this guy about wine, I am really asking, we would like to try the things that make you proud working here. Why that message didn't get through to either the server or the somellier can only be the way the place is wired because of its popularity.

Edited December 6, 2002 by Steve Plotnicki (log)

[Charles Smith]

This is similar to my last experience at Babbo- I was eating alone at the bar, and asked the bartender if there was "something special" to be poured with my truffle dish. 3 or so years agao, when I had my best meal ever at Babbo, we ordered a "gem" that caught the attention of the sommelier and he gave us some pretty special tastes of wines other diners had with special menus. At subsequent trips, this had worked well again- this time however, no movement at all- did I expect it? no. does it make a difference in the meal- absolutely, even if it's just some thought on the part of the bartender.

It's disheartening to see that a restaurant that can be so good has lapses in terms of the basics.

[Fat Guy]

It's disheartening to see that a restaurant that can be so good has lapses in terms of the basics.

Well said, very disheartening, and unfortunately true to at least some extent at most every restaurant.

[cabrales]

Eventually they will start catering to your whims. It's just that the level of effort one has to put into reaching that goal is harder at a place like Babbo then it is at other places in the city. And I don't find that much **potential in the food** there for me to go through that amount of effort.

Steve -- I couldn't agree more with your indication of your assessment of the potential of the food at a given restaurant, as being important to whether you undertake effort.

Who would want to become a regular at a restaurant if the restaurant did not offer exceptional cuisine? Without exceptional cuisine, I wouldn't subjectively want attention in many circumstances. I wouldn't want to feel akward if I merely wanted to stop by and have a relatively rapid or simple meal. I wouldn't want to be unresponsive when the chef came by and asked me how the meal had progressed. I wouldn't want to have to finish the entire portion on a plate, particularly when I was on a diet.

Conversely, for a restaurant that I truly appreciate, no incremental "effort" would actually be required. I would want to take in cuisine there.

Edited December 6, 2002 by cabrales (log)

[maggiethecat]

As someone said later, she reminded them of a cocktail waitress at a hotel in the midwest.

Back to this gem. Words fail me so I'll stop. Gawd.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Well it's an apt description of a certain type of person. The location chosen was based on the way she impressed this particular person. They could have said a hotel in Maine or Northern California instead. Or they could have said or a kosher delicatessen in NYC if she fit the description. We only offer images. You can draw your own inferences.

[maggiethecat]

Okay.

And thanks...at last I have a signature line!

[Steve Plotnicki]

Hey it wasn't my line. I'm just reporting on what comments were in vogue.

[maggiethecat]

Hey it wasn't my line. I'm just reporting on what comments were in vogue.

That's why I put in the "as recounted" bit. Accuracy and all that.