Italian - the true test?

[Matthew Grant]

Incredible: Italian agriculture ministry infiltrated by PeterPumpkino

I couldn't believe this when I read it. Will Restaurants be fined if they don't come up to scratch? So what if an Italian restaurant serves dishes from different regions of Italy, why should this disqualify it from being 'authentic'.

I realise that parts of Italy may have fantastic cooking but I hope they ensure that every restaurant in Italy is up to scratch before they start working on London! My only Visit to Italy was about 3 years ago (Rome) and it was probably the most disappointing place I have ever been to for food. Over cooked, underseasoned pasta/meat, bland saucing etc. Even more frightening was the fact that (in despair) we went to Planet Hollywood one night and had some of the best food we ate in Rome (not a dificult feat to achieve).

[spqr]

This sounds a bit over the top to me, but if it succeeds in taking Olive Garden down I'm all for it.

[peterpumkino]

Wow! Where do I sign up?

Seriously, to put things in perspective, the food as it is served in Italy (and that is not just the ingredients, it's the mode of cooking, the freshness and availability of the ingredients and, possibily the most overlooked, and most important, of all, the actual balance of a true Italian meal - i.e. light pasta entree followed by a suitably light main course with very few 'contorni') is what I like. I am not saying that "Italian" (as most people outside of Italy know it) should be outlawed or anyone that likes it is a phillistine. I am merely saying that I, personally, like the food as it is served in Italy, basta, finito.

Now it seems that the Italians are fighting back as they are fed up with their cuisine getting, what they see as a bad rap, outside of Italy.

A good analogy is this: in America (in an average restaurant) the house wine is Red, Rose or Chablis. Obviously the 'chablis' is white (often Gallo and invariably disgusting). My question is simple, don't you think the good people of the Chablis region in France are a little pissed off at the name of their premium wine being used in the U.S. as the cheapest table wine around? When your average American goes on holiday in France he, naturally, refrains from ordering a wine (Chablis) that he has found, through experience, is terrible? When, of course, it's not. Now please, do not spam me with your opinon. I am not referring to anyone on this site. I am referring to your average American and by 'average' I mean people that go to the Olive Garden or to Ponderosa etc etc.

As I said at the beginning - where do I sign up

PS The article mentions Pizza and Mozzarella. I have two things to say: first I have been told, in no uncertain terms, that the true Pizza was invented in New York?!!!! And secondly, the article asks what is wrong with Mozzarella made in Holland for example and my answer is simple: Cheddar made in England is fabulous, made in the US it's plastic. Steaks cooked inthe States are wonderful and very juicy, steaks in Europe are invariably tough, small and tasteless, Bratwurst in Germany are plump and very tasty, elsewhere they are very bland - need I go on??

[Kikujiro]

I have no doubt that the Italian government agencies involved will carry out this project with admirable efficiency, consistency and integrity.

[spqr]

Hah! You are a very funny guy, Kikujiro.

[SamanthaF]

Steaks cooked inthe States are wonderful and very juicy, steaks in Europe are invariably tough, small and tasteless,

I seriously disagree with you Peter. I've had fabulous steaks in Europe, my most recent experience in Bernardaud, 11 Rue Royale in Paris on Friday last. The steak was delicious. A good 1 1/2 inches thick perfectly cooked and the most flavoursome pepper sauce. I've also had great steaks in the U.S. [including Peter Luger] not worse, not better. I also think that the French cook steaks better than the Brits (Oh No! Call me Plotnicki )

[Tonyfinch]

Now it seems that the Italians are fighting back

Italians fighting-that should be...er....interesting.

I agree that it's hard to find a decent steak in Britain (and btw did anyone read in the paper yesterday about the demise of the Aberdeen and Angus Steakhouse chain-shame that) but grilled Cote De Boeuf for two in France is a staple restaurant classic and can be as delicious as any you can have in the States.

[Adam Balic]

I'm with the Italians. Bistecca should be banned as un-authentic. It's just a dish that the poor Tuscans had to start cooking because of all of the English tourists. Damn Imperialists.

What point in time/social history/geography are they going to choose as being the most authentic Italian?

Should be interesting when the facists start dragging all those shit restaurant owners in Venice and shooting them in the street. Obviously, this will be followed by a push from the Red Brigade to defend the right of all True Italians to cook really bad food for tourists.

[peterpumkino]

Samantha, you can 'seriously disagree with you' all you want but IMHO, generally speaking (note the word 'generally') steaks are not nearly as good in Europe (including France) as the US. I have had really lousy steaks in La Belle France saved only by a great sauce. It's difficult (although by no means impossible) to get a truly bad steak in the States.

Having said that my 'generally' allows for one of the nicest dishes I have had in the UK for a long time and that was at Le Poussin (New Forect) two weeks ago where I had a 'trio' of meats and one of them was the most delicious and tender steaks I have ever had - so generally steaks are better in the States - but not always.

On the very sad demise of the Aberdeen Steak House chain it did remind me of a story. I worked in Germany for a while and my friends there stated that the food was awful in London. Of course any attempt to refute this was met by a guffaw and underlying talk of 'chauvenism'. I then asked where they had eaten and they replied, yes, the Aberdeen Angus Steak House! I have NEVER been to one and I do not know anyone who has. They went back to London for a meeting and returned convinced that they were even more right about the food in London. I again asked them where they had eaten and they said a terrible Italian restaurant in Leicester Square. I will not even insult anyone's intelligence regarding my answer but they were two blocks away from some of the best Chinese Food in the World - and the Chinese food in Germany is awful (I am talking generally - please do not send me a response Samantha saying that you seriously disagree with me as you found a great Chinese down a side street in Heidelberg!).

[mogsob]

Peter, please allow a born and bred NYer to respond:

1. Pizza was NOT invented in NY, but rather in Naples. The first pizza was made at the end of the 19th century for the King, and the colours were chosen to represent their flag (red tomato, white cheese, green basil). An Italian named Lombardi brought the recipe to NY and set up shop on Spring Street (the original Lombardi's was a few blocks down from its present location). His two students went on to found Totonno in Coney Island and Patsy's in Harlem. That said, the pizza board from Naples came to try NY pizza back in 1992, took a bite of classic NY-style slice pizza and said "Delicious. Lasagna." So much for international comity.

2. The days of ordering "Chablis" in a US restaurant have been replaced by ordering either "chardonnay" or "merlot". Americans, by the main, will never get wine because they have no concept of terrior.

3. There are some very good farms in Vermont making excellent cheddar, although England still leads in quality and quantity by a country mile. The cheese revolution in the States is but a few years old, so give us some time to recover from Velvita and Cheese-wiz.

4. While I agree that US beef is the best, I have had very good Scottish beef and, of course, great Chiana beef from Italy. The problem seems to be in the butchering and ageing. Great steak can only be made from huge slabs of sufficiently dry-aged beef. Europeans, in the main, do not sufficiently age their beef or cook sufficiently large steaks (Simon M., notwitstanding). Take for example Sophie's Steakhouse, supposedly based on NY and Chicago steakhouses. Most of their steaks are 8 to 10 oz. You simply cannot cook a great 8-10 oz. steak, as it lacks the thicknesses needed to produce a good crust while leaving the interior rare.

As for Rome, it is one of my favorite dining destinations. Matthew, if you didn't eat well in Rome than you have no one to blame but yourself for not doing enough research. Rome has many great restaurants, but they are not easily found.

[macrosan]

I don't go into a restaurant because it is called an "Italian" restaurant, I go in because I've heard (or discovered for myself) that it serves good food. I don't care if their dishes are "authentic", I care if they're enjoyable and/or interesting and/or in line with my tastes.

"Authentic" is a much overvalued and misunderstood quality. As has already been mentioned in this thread (and others), you have to define when and where before you can even start to assign any meaning to the term. Then you have to define who, because there will be much disagreement on how to cook a particular dish even among those who "originally" created the "authentic" dish.

Many people who demand authenticity are simply stating a preference for a particular dish or dishes which they once tasted somewhere, and to which they wish to assign this "authentic" quality for reasons of nostalgia or "one-upmanship". Some also seem to believe that there is a mystical property in authenticity which somehow makes food "better" than it really is.

[StephenT]

Well said macrosan!

[peterpumkino]

I don't go into a restaurant because it is called an "Italian" restaurant, I go in because I've heard (or discovered for myself) that it serves good food. I don't care if their dishes are "authentic", I care if they're enjoyable and/or interesting and/or in line with my tastes.

"Authentic" is a much overvalued and misunderstood quality. As has already been mentioned in this thread (and others), you have to define when and where before you can even start to assign any meaning to the term. Then you have to define who, because there will be much disagreement on how to cook a particular dish even among those who "originally" created the "authentic" dish.

Many people who demand authenticity are simply stating a preference for a particular dish or dishes which they once tasted somewhere, and to which they wish to assign this "authentic" quality for reasons of nostalgia or "one-upmanship". Some also seem to believe that there is a mystical property in authenticity which somehow makes food "better" than it really is.

I do not agree that it is 'well said'. As I have maintained frequently I love the Italian food 'as it's served in Italy'. This has nothing to do with 'authenticity' (what is that anyway?) just that their way of cooking and preparing and serving the meal (not to mention the all-important 'balance') is what I personally like, other peole can eat at the Olive Garden and have a lovely meal and, in a way, I'm a little jealous as the OG is MUCH cheaper!!

I hope I've exhausted this point.

[peterpumkino]

Peter, please allow a born and bred NYer to respond:

1.  Pizza was NOT invented in NY, but rather in Naples. 

3.  There are some very good farms in Vermont making excellent cheddar.

4.  The problem seems to be in the butchering and ageing.  You simply cannot cook a great 8-10 oz. steak, as it lacks the thicknesses needed to produce a good crust while leaving the interior rare.

Matthew, if you didn't eat well in Rome than you have no one to blame but yourself for not doing enough research.

StephenT, if anything deserved a 'well said' it is this reply.

First of all it clears up the misconception once and for all that Pizza is Italian and NOT from NYC (BTW did you know that there are many Pizzaria's in Naples that do not serve wine at all! Italians, on the whole, prefer to drink beer with pizza and think we're crazy ordering wine).

Secondly you make some serious points BUT you are talking about New York CIty and, contrary to what New Yorkers believe, NYC is NOT America and I can take you to areas where 'chablis' is the norm and the Cheddar sucks!

Like you said you CAN get good steaks in Europe but it's not asy and your comments that a). we do not hang the steaks properly and b). the average steak should be at least 15 ounce to cook properly is right on (in fact, Berne's Steak House in Tampa strongly recommends that two of you have the same steak and order it as one as the steak will be cooked better in one piece.

Finally I agree about Mathew. There are some appalling restaurants in Rome (as I have said before, if you see the menu in English run a mile, if you it's also in Japanese run the 4-minute mile) but there are a million truly memorable restaurants there. Do your research Mathew and get away from the tourist restaurants.

[macrosan]

As I have maintained frequently I love the Italian food 'as it's served in Italy'.

You exactly make my point, Peter. "As it's served in Italy" depends on which village in Italy, which year, which restaurant (or home), which chef or cook, and what ingredients were available this morning.

If you take the simplest pasta dish, the variations of "what is served in Italy" will be so great as to make it possible to love one variation and hate another.

Of course that's true for any "national cuisine". Even French

[StephenT]

I do not agree that it is 'well said'.

Peter, It's well said because it distilled into a few clearly understandable paragraphs something with which I agree. In fact, in your response you said that you don't care about authenticity either, you just happen to like the food as it's served in Italy. Therefore you agree with macrosan too.

[Tonyfinch]

I don't go into a restaurant because it is called an "Italian" restaurant,

Well,maybe but people still classify restaurants by their country of origin as opposed to any other way. People fancy an Indian or a Thai or an Italian or whatever. It'sthe way they think about how to choose a restaurant

Obviously within each genre is a wide varation of quality and authenticity,but certain identifiable traits still define the genre and can be reconized as having links to some sort of original template,even though those links may have changed in order to adapt to local conditions and demand.

[macrosan]

Tony, of course you're exactly right. But Peter has this thing about not accepting a genre. He believes that in order to qualify for the title "Italian food" it must be cooked in some precise (but unidentified) way according to a precise (but unidentified) recipe precisely as it is served in (an unidentified) location in Italy.

So I'm just pulling his piedino a little, just to see if he'll concede the point

[Adam Balic]

Mathew - you poor bastard you went to the "Authentic-like-it-is-in-Italy-Restuarants-that are actually-authenticlly-Italian-but-suck" section of the guide book, rather then the "Authentic-like-it-is-in-Italy-Restuarants-that-are-actually-authenticlly-Italian-and-are-lovely-little-finds-off-the-beaten-track-from-the-what-the-usual-hoi poli (especially Americans)-finds".

[Adam Balic]

Tony, of course you're exactly right. But Peter has this thing about not accepting a genre. He believes that in order to qualify for the title "Italian food" it must be cooked in some precise (but unidentified) way according to a precise (but unidentified) recipe precisely as it is served in (an unidentified) location in Italy.

So I'm just pulling his piedino a little, just to see if he'll concede the point 

Oh, you just don't understand at all. Sigh. If only you had been touched by the spirit of precise (but unidentified) Italy like Peter. Then you wouldn't have to be told, you would just know.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Okay let me straighten you guys out. Except for Sam who has got it spot on.

The steaks in the U.S. are overall better then they usually are in France, the U.K. or in Italy. I never see the meat in Europe that is anywhere as marbled as the way it is in the states. Steaks here are simply "beefier." But they are also have a certain chew to them, tough but not too, that beef anywhere else doesn't seem to be able to match. But I have also been served some terrific steaks in Europe. If you get the right cut of Charolais, Bazas. Chianina, or even Angus from Scotland beef you can eat really well. There are two schools of thinking here. There is the one that says that U.S. beef is better, and there is the one that says that U.S. beef is just different, and that European beef is just as good. I have to say that where I come down on this is to say that U.S. beef is superior to European beef. Not that I don't like eating the steaks in Europe. Quite often you will find me ordering a cote de boeuf or a steak frittes as my diner. There is much merit to the beef there. But I just think the meat in the U.S. has something special about it which pushes it over the top. More texture then elsewhere. And if I can point to any corroborating evidence it's the French diners that I often run into in NYC's better steakhouses. It says something that they aren't dining in Daniel, but they are dining at The Palm.

The second issue is Macrosan's point about why he goes into a restaurant. I have to say that I go for exactly the opposite reasons. Before I sit down to eat, I want a complete reference point as to what is going to be on my plate. Since dining is ultimately a comparitive experience, I need to calibrate my taste buds accordingly so I have the proper reference points to apply against what they are going to serve. So when Peter makes the point that he wants to eat "real Italian food," that statement means something to me. I eat Italian food in NYC all of the time but it is hardly ever real Italian food. By that I mean evoking the sense and spirit of Italy. Though I'm not the hugest fan, Babbo does a good job of approaching a meal as if you were in Italy. But then there are restaurants like Il Mulino, while widely popular, that have nothing to do with what you would get in Italy.

As for dining in Rome (and Venice since Circeplum's old note has been revived,) I think they are two of the worst places to eat in Italy. Not that you can't have good meals in either place, they just pale in comparison to some of the food available elsewhere.

[macrosan]

Since dining is ultimately a comparitive experience...

And my point is that for me dining is ultimately an eating experience

[Adam Balic]

As for dining in Rome (and Venice since Circeplum's old note has been revived,) I think they are two of the worst places to eat in Italy. Not that you can't have good meals in either place, they just pale in comparison to some of the food available elsewhere.

Steve - I agree. While I have had terrific dining experiences in both of those cities, in general they are not such immediately obvious 'food cities', like some of the other Italian cities.

My question would be if Mathew had said that he had a bad meal in London, rather then Rome, would he have got the "You are an idiot" response that he did?

[Tonyfinch]

I took Macrosan to mean that there are as many "real Italian" meals as there are people in Italy who know how to cook them. That the variations are so numerous that to talk of "real Italian food" is meaningless.

However Italian restaurants in London generally abide by sets of conventions that may or may not bear any relation to those abided by in Italy. They form their own genre and that genre develops over time according to taste and demand and a host of other things. These days fewer restaurant to the phallic pepper mill and sprinling of dried parmesan routine than used to,there are fewer straw covered Chianti flasks.More restaurants stress regional dishes and ingredients and so on.

However since many London cuisines developed out of a demand from holidaymakers returning home and demanding an approximation of what they ate while on holiday,an approximation is what they get. They want to relive the "Italian Experience" or the "Thai Experience" which in many ways was never an "authentic" experience in the first place.

[Steve Plotnicki]

And my point is that for me dining is ultimately an eating experience

Macrosan - Well all you are saying is that you don't bring the same level of discernment to the dining experience that others do. Didn't you know that is a reuqirement to participate on this board. The shame of it.

Adam - Well I would never call anyone an idiot who says the food in England is crap . I just think the response Matthew got is based more on Rome's reputation then actual experience. And maybe Matthew ate in the wrong places. But it's also very easy to have poor meals there. But it also gets back to the question of what good really is, and what standards need to be kept, and whether everyone here keeps the same, or requisite (as shown by Macro above) standards.