Gumbo

[Jaymes]

We live about 30 miles from Lousiana...

So where does that put you? Down around Orange??

[SobaAddict70]

I don't get it.  Are you mad at me because of the unhappy time you had at Gage & Tollner's?  Is that what's at the bottom of this?  When it was your suggestion to go in the first place, and I was the one who made the arrangements?  Why did you have to pick a fight now?

Please note that by saying "re-read," I assumed you had already read "Evangeline" at least once -- an accomplishment I doubt many people your age have, these days.  This is being patronizing?  And then when you threw in the non sequitur about "Cajun not Creole hehe" after making statements that were unsupportable -- Why?  Again, I don't get it.

Now you're assuming things that have no bearing on the subject matter at hand.

I had a bad time, true, on many levels -- but that has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Your reply to me may not have been intended as patronizing or condescending, but I perceived it that way. FYI, I've never read "Evangeline" (nor am I a fan of pre-20th century American literature, but that's neither here nor there). Your reply sounded VERY patronizing and if you can't see that, well then...I offer an example below.

Listen to what you're saying. You say and I quote -- "I assumed you had already read "Evangeline" at least once -- an accomplishment I doubt MANY PEOPLE YOUR AGE HAVE, THESE DAYS" (caps added for emphasis). If that is not patronizing on the face of it, then I don't know what is. Since when is my age relevant to having read a poem of that length? Since when is it relevant to anything? FYI, I've read "Sir Gawain and the Green Knight" in the original Middle English, and "The Canterbury Tales", also in the original ME, and parts of "The Odyssey" in the original Greek -- things many ppl my age do so these days. I don't assume things about other ppl, and I would appreciate it if you'd do likewise.

It was not a non-sequitur. The editors of that magazine are Cajuns. They're not Creoles. When I've had gumbo in NO, these were in fact Creole versions, and followed certain Creole traditions: no mixing meat and fish, use of okra as a thickening agent moreso than file powder, etc. But again, whatever.

I am NOT accusing YOU of anything because I had a bad time. On the other hand, you're assuming I am, for some perverted line of reasoning. And I am "picking a fight", to quote you, because you made a statements that rightly or wrongly, I perceived to be patronizing and offensive. I'm just standing up for myself. Apologies to anyone who needed to wade through this sideshow.

Side note: if you think this is a flame, well...you haven't yet seen me parading my asbestos underpants. I do assure you, they're quite flame-retardant and can be ordered on the Internet Home Shopping Network for the cheap-ass price of $19.95, shipping and handling not included. I do believe they take all major credit cards, and Paypal for the credit-card-challenged.

SA

[SobaAddict70]

Ah, but are there any worthwhile vegetarian versions?

Me, I'd rather have a good oyster gumbo anyday.

SA

[SobaAddict70]

Sorry about the pirate, Colonel.

Actually, I felt bad for the pirate. How would you feel with a hand up your tukhes?

hmmm

that depends on whose hand it belonged to and what said hand was doing up there...

heheh

SA

[Dana]

Jaymes---Beaumont, to be exact, the armpit of Texas. Most of TX is so nice, and we got stuck here....oh for retirement.

SA---there is such a thing called gumbo z'erbs, but I don't really know if it's vegetarian or if you could make it so. I know it contains a lot of greens, and here in the south, where there's greens, there's usually pork products of some sort. You'd just have to do a little research. Nothing wrong with oyster gumbo, though.

[Bond Girl]

This is one of my favorite food of all time. I make a nice dark roux, add it to a spicy soup base and then let it cook forever. As the soup gets to the right consistency, I'll throw in the seafood that I feel like at the moment and let it cook through.

But recently, I was reading Norman Van Aken's Black Bean Gumbo which involves cooking the soup and the seafood separately, and assembling in the soup bowl when serving.

Any thoughts on which is a better way? How do you cook your gumbo?

[col klink]

Um, I remember posting about gumbo but, hopefully, your thread turns out better.

My, um, thread.

Oh yeah, my thread doesn't involve seafood.

[fifi]

First... Gumbo is gumbo. It is NOT soup. I am not sure what you mean by adding roux to a "soup base" but that is the wrong way around. following is the typical technique for Louisiana gumbo.

The normal technique is to make your roux (color depends on the style of gumbo), add your seasoning vegetables (onion, celery, green pepper seasoned with salt and cayenne) to the hot roux, add the liquid, then you add your meat or seafood at the appropriate time and cook it as long as you like for the proper effect. Adding the vegetables to the hot roux is a flavor thing and stops the roux from cooking any further.

A little explanation about style... There are the very dark gumbos that typically have sausage, chicken, duck or whatever. The vegetables are cooked away and you don't really see them. If you add seafood, it is added at the end to not overcook. At the other end of the spectrum is a lighter roux, vegetables in recognizable pieces, usually seafood. Tomatoes and okra tend to be controversial. Black beans? OH THE HORROR! But I suppose you could branch out from the classic and get something good. I have even done that but hesitate to call it gumbo.

Every "real" gumbo recipe I have dealt with or had recited to me follows this general pattern. Sometimes the meat portion is precooked since gumbos are often made with leftovers, such as the Thanksgiving turkey or the remnants of a big seafood boil. So you could cook the seafood separately, but WHY???

[Bond Girl]

Thanks fifi for the input. I was wondering that myself. The way I was taught to make gumbo was that you make a dark roux, then separately, you sautee the vegetables, add the stock to make a soupy mixture. Once everything is combined, you add the roux to the whole thing, and then let it cook forever. At the very end you add the seafood.

The Norman Van Akan recipe use puree balck beans cooked in bacon instead of the roux which gives the whole soup a balck color. I'm not sure why it call for frying up the seafood and use it as topping though....Having said that it was an interesting taste.

[fifi]

I don't know where you got your instructions but, a real Cajun Momma would never use another pot if not necessary. I have never known one (and I have known a few) that would do anything like saute veggies separately. They do everything in the one pot. Plus, the heat hitting the vegatables is a flavor thing.

One tip on adding the liquid. If the roux/veggie mixture is hot (as it will likely be) you need to have the liquid at room temp. Then you add a little at a time and stir in. If you don't, you get this gloppy goo. I made this mistake one time when I was simmering the turkey bone broth while I was doing the roux and veggies. I like to have never got it together. The rule is to add cold to hot, a little at a time and stir.

[awbrig]

Buy it from Heaven on Seven

Edited April 1, 2003 by awbrig (log)

[fifi]

Uh... Awbrig... What the hell does that mean?

Oh... now the picture shows up.

editted for too fast fingers

Edited April 1, 2003 by fifi (log)

[awbrig]

Fifi,

IMO, they have the best Gumbo Ive ever tasted so far...

Ill never try to outcook them in Gumbo because theirs is so damn good....

Their website...

http://www.heavenonseven.com/frameset2.html

[awbrig]

Um, I remember posting about gumbo but, hopefully, your thread turns out better.

My, um, thread.

Oh yeah, my thread doesn't involve seafood.

Klink I was reading through your old Gumbo thread...classic eGullet stuff!

I especially liked the pirate!

[fifi]

Awbrig... You have probably just saved my son! He is an ex-New Orleanean living in Chicago and is in a gumbo crisis. He was about to get a cheap ticket to Houston so his Momma could make him some gumbo. I will be sending him the link to the site so he can go find his gumbo on his own. (I am big on child self sufficiency.) Thanks.

[awbrig]

Awbrig... You have probably just saved my son! He is an ex-New Orleanean living in Chicago and is in a gumbo crisis. He was about to get a cheap ticket to Houston so his Momma could make him some gumbo. I will be sending him the link to the site so he can go find his gumbo on his own. (I am big on child self sufficiency.) Thanks.

Going to Heaven on Seven is like stepping into Mardi Gras in N'Orlins...He'll love it! What a great Momma!

[davidscooking]

I've recently read several Louisiana cookbooks, during the course of which I looked at least a couple of dozen gumbo recipes, and in every one, you add your seasoning vegetables to the hot roux. That's completely in accordance with what I've seen cooks here in NO do.

As for other rules about what makes gumbo gumbo, here's what Leon E. Soniat Jr. has to say in "La Bouche Creole" about the gumbos prepared in his family:

"The gumbos we ate were divided into three main classifications: those with okra as a base, those with file (fee-lay; a powder of ground sassafrass leaves) added just before serving, and those with neither okra nor file. Some Creoles will stoutly maintain that a gumbo must have either okra or file, and there is a great deal of merit to their position. There are others who just as vehemently uphold the opposing view that a gumbo is a gumbo, even though in contains neither okra nor file."

Okra and file have the effect of thickening gumbo. If you use file, add it at the very end (a pinch to the serving bowl), as cooking file generally produces a stringy mess....

[Steve Klc]

Here's one thing I've always wondered about--is there any performance or taste advantage to using file which you grind yourself from whole leaves versus the powdered stuff you can buy? Is this discussed in any of the sources or been observed in practice? This speaks to the "grind your own from whole spice" for much fresher fragrant effect that seems to apply to many other spices.

[Bond Girl]

Fifi, thanks for the tip. I will try your method of Gumbo this weekend. It will certainly cut down on dishwashing. I think Gumbo should have Okra and file, but when its not done right, you just get this gooey inedible thing.

davidscooking, in your recipes, do they cook the meats separately? Or together in one pot?

Edited April 1, 2003 by Bond Girl (log)

[johnjohn]

Any tips or secrets when working with Okra? I've never cooked it, but am interested in using it in a gumbo. When do you add it to a gumbo? Is frozen sliced Okra any good?

johnjohn

[col klink]

Frozen is all right if that is all you can find but fresh is certainly better; it won't be as slimey.

[Bond Girl]

I like frying it in a bit of oil and vinegar. It helps with the sliminess.

[fifi]

On okra and file...

My family and friends are firmly in the NO OKRA camp. If you are not careful, you can end up with a slimy mess. Some recipes call for blanching before adding (there goes another pot) or sauteing at a high temperature to "seal the cut ends". I don't know how well either approach works since we don't like it.

I have never seen the file available as whole leaves. I have picked my own (sassafras leaves), dried them, then pounded them to powder in a plastic bag (didn't have a spice grinder). I concluded it wasn't worth the trouble. The leaves don't have the flavor that sassafras root does. It is used for thickening more than flavor, added by the pinch at the table. The darker the roux, the less thickening power it has, so it is most common with the darker end of the gumbos. It is an acquired taste... er... texture.

BTW... Gumbo is an African word for okra. That is where it all got started and why some say it is not gumbo if it doesn't have okra. I think it has evolved to mean the particular style of dish we are discussing here.

[davidscooking]

Bond girl. The most typical way of handling meat: If the gumbo includes poultry and/or sausage, they are browned in oil one at a time, then removed from the pan. The cooking oil and any fat rendered in the pan are used to make a roux. Then seasoning vegetables are cooked in the roux. Seafood is generally added near the end, so as not to overcook it. But there are lots of variations in which various meats are handled, and some are cooked separately before adding to the gumbo.

Okra tips:

Soniat says "In selecting okra for gumbo, always remember to get fresh, tender okra, One way to tell this is to bend the tips of a few of the okra pods.... If the tips snap off, you know the okra is fresh, but if the tips are soft and pliant and do not pop off, do not use them--they are not fresh."

"It's best not to use cast iron in cooking as it may discolor the okra."

[Marlene]

At the end of this installment of my cross-country journal, you'll find a good gumbo recipe from King Neptune's restaurant in Gulf Shores, Alabama.

FG, may I put this recipe in the eGRA archive?