albiston

I know, we Italians can be quite tight assed when it comes to our traditions and playing around with them. I think our main opinion difference is in that "flavor profile" you mention in your last sentence. For me a dish made with cream does not resemble carbonara anymore. As you said yourself, Carbofredo . While I can understand the fact that this flavor might still be a carbonara for many, I feel it is a misconception coming from the lack of knowledge of what the original dish should be. And this is what makes semantics and having a common definition so important. I believe it is a sign of respect for a culinary tradition to know what a certain dish is in its original acceptation. I'm not like that only towards my own tradition: I get equally pissed off when some of my Italian friends tell me they're going to have a BBQ... on an open fire. It has nothing to do with rigid definitions or categories; as I've said before, please do go on playing with recipes. But don't go around butchering those traditions. Furthermore, the cream addition is IMO something that got into the recipe to make life easier for lazy cooks: no time or too sloppy to get your carbonara properly creamy? What the fuck, just pour some cream in there and hey pronto! problem solved. That makes me particularly angry.

Nullo Modo, I agree that recipes are there to inspire and to play with, at least at times. And I'm sure the dish tastes better to you than the original, that's the whole point of changing recipes, at least for the home cook in my view. What I disagree on is if what you have there is still carbonara. Italian cuisine might not be codified as the French, but there is on many dishes a general consensus of what the defining elements of a dish are. For carbonara I would take the following: noodles, eggs, cheese, pepper and cured meat. If one keeps to that, you can play as much as you want but you still basically have a carbonara. You could use duck eggs, oriental noodles, ground sichuan peppercorns and cured Chinese meats to make an oriental carbonara. Or a pecorino and pepper flavored zabaione in which to dip your pasta, with lardons on the side. You could, like Italian chef Moreno Cedroni does, turn the thing on its head and use cured smoked fish instead of pancetta and cubed, instead of grated, cheese. Eunny's idea, with pepper replacing the sage, would make a perfect carbonara ravioli dish. I would even say a tad of cream, a slight onion or garlic note are fine, though they do nothing for me. On the other hand if your pasta sauce starts relying on cream and butter, if onion or garlic dominate the flavor, than you probably have a great rich pasta dish but it's not a carbonara anymore. The essence of the dish is simply lost.

Caffeine content, in normal non-decaf beans, varies according to coffee plant species. If I remember correctly, Arabica beans are between 1 and 1.5% and Robusta ones between 2 and 4% (or 5 maybe). Therefore the content would depend on the blend. I would imagine Illy's caffeine numbers are pretty similar to other 100% arabica blends.

Marc, just a suggestion regarding cheese, tried a few times following a suggestion from Antonio Tombolini (on his old esperya forum I guess), which works nicely. Try using the central Italian aged Pecorini in both carbonara and amatriciana. They're not as salty as Pecorino Romano, but more pungent than Parmigiano. The taste is somewhat different to what one's used to but the various ingredients are better balanced. I think you're right on rigatino being the name for pancetta tesa in Florence and Chianti, though it is leaner than other pancetta from other Italian regions, especially the southern ones.

From what I've heard Michelin doesn't award stars in any region which it cannot cover properly for lack of reviewers/inspectors. I don't know what the situation in Eastern Europe is, but I'm quite sure that in Sweden, Finland and Norway only the restaurants in the respective capital cities are tested and therefore only these could be awarded stars. Any other restaurants are only mentioned in the guide but not graded. I suspect the situation is not much different in Eastern Europe.

I thought guanciale was leaner, since it is from the jowls and not the belly. ← It depends on how the animal was raised, its age, regional traditions, etc. You can find some pretty lean guanciale, but I haven't had much luck in finding that lately. The one I order from Italy has often more fat than pancetta and if you cut through it you have two large stripes of fat separated by a rather thick meaty layer.

I didn't think you were being snotty, but I did take it seriously. I thought I was about to get some wisdom concerning which pancetta to use for which dish. I've also seen speck listed as a type of pancetta, but speck is German bacon right? ← good to have cleared that up. which pancetta to use? I like pancetta that is not too fat and is cured with plenty of pepper, something like rigatino (streaky pancetta) from Tuscany. That's also the reason why I prefer this to guanciale which has much more fat than muscle. the speck thing is a bit confusing. When I moved to Germany, my wife (German) could not understand why I insisted on the fact that speck is not too different from prosciutto, till we cleared up the difference between German speck (bacon and cured lard) and the Austrian and Sudtyrolean speck, which is made from the leg of the pig. The confusion arises because of the different German dialects, which are particularly extreme when it comes to food items... try ordering a bread roll in different cities in Germany and you'll soon get an idea of how confusing it can get .

I am no expert on pancetta, but I have read in places that there are over 20 types of pancetta. Some of these include "smoked pancetta", but pancetta isn't supposed to be smoked (traditionally) as I understand it. However, if you accept "smoked pancetta" as true pancetta, I prefer the unsmoked. As far as the different types of "unsmoked pancetta" go, I have little preference because I have little experience. ← itch, my comment was intended as a joke. Didn't want to be snotty or anything. Just for the record: I've made carbonara using almost any kind of bacon I could find, in emergency situations, and it always comes out at least palatable, even using the cheap soggy smoked stuff I often find on sale here in Germany. If you want to experiment a bit, try using guanciale for a change, if you can find it. Some people swear it works much better than pancetta in carbonara. I disagree, but it's pretty much a matter of taste: both are delicious.

Adam, thanks for the great pictures. I look at Odile Redon's "The Medieveal kitchen" about once a year looking for a stimulus to have a go at those interesting Historic recipes and who knows, your post might just be the shove I needed. Do you know if musk or amber can still be bought today? They pop up quite often in medieval dishes.

I refuse to accept anything other then pancetta. Sorry. ← OK then, let's make this game a little more interesting, WHICH pancetta ?

itch, do you mean Parmigiano Reggiano or Pecorino Romano? I use a mix of Parmigiano and Pecorino, which I vary according to my mood. Usually it's 70% Parmigiano 30% Pecorino, but sometimes I want a more rustic tasting Carbonara so I go heavy on the pecorino. Eggs: whole eggs are the traditional way but yolks will give a creamier sauce. Keeping true to the rustic origin of the dish I use whole eggs most of the time. shallots and onions (like cream) appear in some recipes but they just don't belong there, sorry. David Leite has a very nicely written short article on Carbonara, with some interesting info and a nice recipe for the dish.

balex, do you have any experience with Trimani? I have a few friends who swear it's the best place in Rome. Last time and only time I was there, years ago following the suggestion of a good friend, I was surprised, positively by the choice, extremely negatively by the prices.

Ore, Since you're not far from the mozzarella production area I'm sure you'll be able to discover all that's needed. I'll just add a little info for those who are not so lucky. When making mozzarella the curd has to be aged and acidified before it can be heated to the point where it "melts". To do this in the proper way, the milk proteins have to loose the calcium bound to them, and to achieve this the curd has to be acidified. This can be done chemically, as many industrial producers do, or through the use of a lactobacteria culture, used by most smaller producers. Every producer has his own culture and guards it closely, like bakers do with sourdough starters. The milk used in the cheese certainly plays a huge role in the final taste of mozzarella but the hardcore aficionados claim that difference between a very good mozzarella and an excellent one is in the culture used to acidify the curd.

Me for example . When I made the Nutella tart, being the lazy, metric units using person I am, I used 200 grams of butter, as the book said. It did seem like loads of butter to add, and it took me quite a while to get it incorporated in the ganache but it eventually worked. Just fine at the end, flavour-wise. Actually more than fine, judging from the time it took the party guest I baked it for to finish the thing. amyd, thanks for pointing out what looks like a print mistake. It gives me just the excuse I was looking for to bake the Nutella tart again

why not both

Thank you, Albie, for mentioning my work. Michele Scicolone ← Michele, welcome to eGullet and thanks for joining the discussion. I'll take the chance to ask straight away which of you're book you'd suggest for a first time reader of your work.

Ore, congratulations for the graduation and thanks for sharing this experience with all of us here on eGullet. This has been a fantastic and informative thread throughout and always a pleasure to read. A couple of notes on your last post. I notice your visit at the mozzarella plant concentrated on the shaping phase of production. I was wondering if they gave you any explanation on how they make and age the curd. That's actually the crucial step for mozzarella flavor. Maybe they just didn't want to give too many secrets away . Could it be that the grapes were Trebbiano? It's the same grape used for Cognac (ugni blanc) and AFAIK the traditional grape for Balsamico.

John, thanks. I'll look for the article in the NYT archive. I think Palermo is great too, but I have been there a few times, while I always missed, for one reason or another, the SE corner of the island between Ragusa and Siracusa, so probably my next visit will concentrate on that area. I'll make a note of your tips .

We'd love to hear about it, and with it any comment you'd like to make about the event. There's a special Salone del Gusto thread for the purpose.

A_Broad, nice to see you leaving the lurkers club to join the discussion here on eGullet, and thanks for the nice pictures. Happy to know we managed to inspire you to try truffles... just hope you don't hold us equally responsible for any damages your bank account might have suffered because of this I was wondering how big that 2700 Euro truffle was: any clue?

You must be kidding, right? I actually have two: a paperback edition of the original 14th or 15th print and a hardback copy of the 1st edition published for the centenary of the book by L'Accademia della cucina Italiana, with a nice introduction on Italian cookbooks pre-Artusi. It's interesting to see how the book grew in the 20 years between these editions. I don't cook much from it, though there are a few favorites in there. Nonetheless, as you say, it is the ORIGINAL Italian cookbook, and if only for historic reasons, it is a book not to be missed if you love Italian food.

maremosso, believe me, I understand very well your cry from the heart and, as I've said before, I think much of your criticism is understendable to say the least, though I can only say so from friend's descriptions, since I never ate at Pinchiorri's myself. Like you, I would not repeat an experience if I found it to be so expensive and so dreadful. My comment was more intended as a general note of caution when judging a restaurant after so much time and I hope you'll take it as only that, and not an attack to your or Carlsbad's opinions.

Suzanne, Flatbread and Flavors is many things in one book: a travel diary, a cook book and a baking book, if not even more. The recipes are divided according to Geographic origin and each chapter includes bread recipes, dishes and dips that can be served with them and a few travel stories related to these. The whole makes for a very pleasant read. I found the recipes work fine and the bread-accompanying dish matches are great when I'm looking for some new "ethnic" dish to prepare at home and have no inspiration. Still, there are a few things that can be improved. The leavened breads recipes use IMO too much yeast and therefore rise too quickly compromising the final product's flavor. I've modified them decreasing yeast amount, increasing rise time (using cooler rooms and even fridge), and even adapted a few of them to use sourdough starter with very nice results. If you like flatbreads it definitely is a book to have, I don't think there's anything comparable out there.

maremosso, don't you think that judging a place on a 10 years old experience could not reflect what Enoteca Pinchiorri is today? In such a period of time other restaurants have changed ownerships, style and target customer more than once. I'm not saying this to defend their approach to food, let me be clear on this, and I think many of your criticisms have a good reason to be. Nonetheless the Enoteca seems to have undergone a certain shift, away from more marked French influences, and its reputation is certainly improving among Italian foodies. Maybe a few things have changed from that dreary evening.

MMerrill, thanks for the interesting report. I'm sorry I missed the original thread in September since I was away at the time, otherwise I'd have added a bit more info to what I wrote for the Gambero Rosso Digest.