Bux

I've heard pros and cons about the effects of cheese on the taste of wine. There are many today who feel that cheese and red wine is not the ideal match and that the custom of drinking them together is result of cheese coming at the end of the meal. Be that as it may, I recall reading a long time ago that a wine merchant's trick was to offer a bit of cheese with his tastes because it made the wine taste better. You friend may not be cleansing her palate as much as coating to make the next wine taste better.

Interesting point, but he worked alone before he worked with his daughter and I recall a more interesting show then. I wasn't so sure his shows were better with Claudine, although I don't think they were any worse and I generally enjoyed them.

What I tried to say was that I didn't read anyone's response to your post as saying any of your criticisms weren't valid. What was said was that they took them in stride, which is fair for them to do. In fact, I recall someone saying that because oversalting was never reported before, it made your post even more valid. It's not just criticism, it's news. The point is that news is often news because it's a report of the unusual. Once again, I'm saying you seem to misread the replies to your posts. There's a world of difference between taking something in context and suggesting someone omit comment or shrug something off. If someone implies they're taking your comments in the context of those of other diners or their own experiences, it doesn't imply that you should not have posted those comments. I don't think saying "keep it real" was helpful, although the intent may have gone over my head.

The new is always more bothersome to a greater number than the traditional. We come to the table with preconceptions. Thus we, as European diners, allow a greater sweetness in Asian cuisines, because we approach them as foreign from the start. A lot of this is in how the diner is approached. Even Victor's remarks about balance, which I think are on the money, are culturally based. Shocking the palate is easy. The difficult thing is to shock it and leave the diner favorably impressed I think we can differentiate between the different ways sugars and sweet fruits have been used in classic dishes. The nuts and fruits of the middle east have survived in Spain and Southern Italy and Siciliy. The sweet and sour dishes from Alsace of Jewish origin have a long tradition that lives in the recently popular agridouce dishes of many chefs. It's not ancient history but in the late sixties I remember an outstanding chicken (capon I think) in a cream sauce with vin jaune and morels in the Jura. I assume it was a traditional dish, but maybe not. Roast duck à l'orange never appealed to me as much as braised duck served with peas. All of these don't necessarily appeal to the same diners, although they each have enough support to be considered classic.

If I had expressed myself adequately, there'd be no occasion for Miguel to use "but" when noting that in the cultural context that is France, the ritual choreography of the dining room, makes diners more comfortable. That it makes insiders more comfortable is exactly that which makes others (the outsiders) less comfortable. Conventions can appear much like secret handshakes and cryptic code to those who aren't in on the secrets, in spite of the fact that those conventions evolved to make dining more pleasant. For service to be truly unobtrusive, and it can be sublimely so in France, both partners need to be in step. A waiter must learn exactly where to expect a diners hands and implements to be at any time and to read what time it is by their placement. At the same time the diner must know almost instinctively where the staff is and what they're doing at any step in the meal. It's not just an agreement regarding the side from which food is served and the one from which it's taken, or the symbolism of the placement of tableware before, during and after the course of eating a dish. It's two sided all the way. It's not just a servant-diner relationship and it's certainly never meant to be a confrontation. Just as a waiter should never interrupt a conversation, (let alone join in one with an opinion as happened in a NY Hotel restaurant to me) it's incumbent on the diner to be aware of when the waiter should be heard as well as seen and for the diners to time their conversations. It is, as Carrot Top suggests, a foreign language. It's not really valid to make certain kinds of criticisms based on my needs of the language if it suits the native users. Robert Brown makes a few valid additions to what Miguel said. I don't think he contradicts what Miguel says as much as I think he brings the subject up to date. Much of what it wonderful about fine dining is disappearing and can't be maintained in today's economy. That doesn't make it wrong as an ideal, it just means it's unaffordable. "The more you eat out, the more you get out of eating out," is another way of saying that you are responsible for making your next meal a better one. That there are waiters who abuse the system by trying to show up a diner is less a failure of the system than of those waiters and I don't think those were the basis of Terry's criticism.

Any reply that starts off by telling me I've spoken well deserves a lot of attention. Lucy has started a new thread about French Dining Rituals. It seems apt to post the results of my attention there so we don't bog this thread down with multiple subthreads. Let's all discuss that aspect there.

Probably nothing patently obvious at all and just an impression. To be fair, I've spent little time in Austria and less in fine restaurants there. In fact, I prefaced my comment about about being reminded about Austria with the phrase "Don't ask me why." Why do I see more Loden coats in Madrid than Paris? Are they really more common in Madrid? I don't know. As for suggesting you didn't find any common thread in the service, surely you're not suggesting that each of these restaurants could have been in Pennsylvania or France. I'm saying the decor and service touched a certain subjective nerve, and reminded me that both were part of the Hapsburg empire. I may be the only one in the world who had that reaction, although Mrs. B also thought it was a reasonable one at the time. Our limited experience with Austria is mostly a joint one and a pleasant one.

Lucy, you make excellent points about why a restaurant would be reluctant to let its list out of the dining room, especially when you speak about the sommelier's work. I've discussed putting complete wine lists on restaurant web sites. More than a few restaurants have done this and felt it was something to be featured, but others have noted that that they're leery of allowing it to be used as a research tool. While other restaurateurs and professionals are free to peruse the list at will in the confines of the restaurant and memorize as much as they can, the restaurant is not eager to make the list available for dissection and intimate examination. In fact, they would regard a diner photographing pages of the wine list as industrial espionage. There are restaurants that do not look kindly on diners taking photographs of the plated food for precisely this reason and I have been forbidden to take photographs inside a retail boulangerie in Paris. The clerk was so unpleasant about this, that it's tempered my view of the bakery. Thus I'd agree that it can backfire in some cases, but the diner has to understand the reasons before dismissing a refusal to allow a diner to take the list upstairs, as part of some arcane ritual. As Terry is a major player in the industry, it raises other questions as to why this is not obvious to him even if he dismisses the idea on those grounds. Are restaurateurs and sommeliers in his area just more open about their lists, or are they more trusting of him because they know him well?

Have you tried AsiaRoma Bar and Lounge on Mulberry?

I didn't hear what you seem to have heard. If one person reports a problem, it's not unreasonble for another to note that it's the first time he's heard that complain about that restaurant and it's also not unreasonable for a third person to note that it's both reasonable for one person to make the complaint and for him to ignore a single complaint from a restaurant that's had many positive posts. It neither disputes the complaint, nor does it say the complaint should not have been posted. It simply says the post will not deter him from eating there. I've registered an opinion that people who expect four star restaurants to be absolutely perfect 100% of the time and to provide a perfect experience to every diner at every meal, are naive. I don't think anyone has suggested that Blue Hill or Blue Hill at Stone Barnes is even a four star restaurant let alone perfect. I have been served overly salted dishes at four star restaurants by the way. That you had an oversalted dish at Stone Barnes has not been doubted, but it does seem to be a rare thing. Was it oversalted enough to return to the kitchen? Did you return the plate? Did you eat the eggs? Did you comment on the dish to the waiter? None of these thing reflect on your post, but they do affect the chance of the error being repeated.

The service in Spain is different from the service in France. Of course it varies in both countries from restaurant to restaurant as well and France sets a standard for luxury restaurants the world over. I think it's the interpretation that's different. The restaurants in the north or Spain, the Relais Gourmand restaurants of Spain and those that aspire to international status most attempt to ape French service. Don't ask me why, but Arzak reminded me more of an Austrian restaurant than a French or Spanish restaurant in terms of service. The historical ties of Spain are often not with neighboring France. On the whole I'd agree that Spanish waiters are there to serve the diner, while French waiters are there to serve the great tradition and I think it's clear that Terry doesn't like that. I might quibble with some of his observations, but on the whole they're objective. His reactions however, may be subjective. It's an interesting post and quite welcome in the forum. It's a pity he's not here to discuss it, but it raises a number of issues worth tackling. Maybe too many for one thread. It's very difficult to compare eating or dining in France to it's counterparts in the US. You can compare Paris to New York perhaps, or a number of other cities to SF, Chicago, DC and some places in the US, but small towns, the hinterlands and areas of lower density are very different. I think it's wrong to say there's no culinary effect in those small bib gourmands and GaultMillau awards hearts across a great spectrum of restaurants. In fact, the thing that makes France so different from the US is the connection between FDs and JPEs. One need only to read John Talbott's digests to understand how carefully the bistros are watched by the food critics and how much attention is paid to reporting on their culinary offerings. We are creating a class of star chefs in the US, just like in France, but in doing so, we're bypassing the stage where the guys who do the cooking for the JPE get a lot of respect as well. The small town artisan chef is a local culinary figure in France. I find the use of "ballet" to describe the service to be accurate. I have often referred to the interaction between a diner and a waiter as a dance, and it's one that goes poorly if the diner doesn't know how the steps. American service may be less formal because we like it that way, but it's also less formal because Americans don't know the steps and American servers who know the rules, have to improvise so often that there's no point in teaching the new kids on the floor how to dance. The French are a very formal people in any social setting. It's no surprise that dining has evolved into a prescribed ballet, and no greater surprise that it makes some outsiders uncomfortable. I know certain reconstructed Frenchmen who have spent enough time in the US to be impatient when faced with the French pace, but it's a cultural difference and I find it hard to take a "right" or "wrong" stance. There are some wonderfully creative French chefs, but on the whole, that's not been the national forte in the kitchen. More often than not American chefs are quite agile with new ideas, but they can fall on their face because of a lack of proper discipline and technical training. Given a choice, I'd probably pick Spain, although the truth is I spend my money here, there and the other place. We could go on and talk about the restaurants named as well. Last month we had a wonderful dinner at Régis Marcon's Clos des Cimes, highlighted by excellent and attentive wine service. A couple of years ago we had a dinner that was perhaps even more superb in terms of the dishes we ordered, but the evening was ruined by atrocious service or should I say lack of wine service. We ate cold food after waiting for wine that sat in our bottle and was never served. Why did I return? Well, for everal reasons including the quality of the food, but I entered the dining room rather tense and it's to the place's credit that I was able to relax. I started by ordering a glass of bubbly as we sat in the lounge enjoying amuses and perusing the menu and the wine list jointly, but I have to agree with Terry here. Had I been shown the wine list before being asked for an aperitif order, I might well have ordered the local house special aperitif that was listed. There are lessons to be learned at FDs that make the next meal more appealing, but that sort of thing can lessen the joy of the first visit which is unfortunate.

I know, and just when you were thinking he's being groomed for FoodTV, or vice versa.

It assumes you don't want a bottle of some remotely upscale wine. The result of forcing mom and pop liquor stores to compete with supermarkets on the plonk, means that they will have to make all their profits on the upscale stuff. It helps a certain consumer and hurts another, but that is the nature or our economy in most marketplace issues. Once you remove a personal interest, the question is, "why should the retail wine market be so different from that of butter, eggs and underwear?" To what extent should government protect consumers, retailers and distributors and in states where the government owns the liquor shops, "why?"

I saw him do some smoked salmon appetizers, a "fast" "cassoulet"-ish pot of beans, sausages and ham, and a dessert of oranges and sweetened cream cheese. I've been a big fan of his for years and enjoyed his books and TV shows, but I have to say that with the exception of the smoked salmon salad without apple slices, nothing looked appealing and I don't think it was the time limit. Worst of all, I had the deep sense he was playing down to a new audience for him. I hope it's just that particular episode and that if I catch the melon and prociutto episode I'll hear him offer some particular wisdom or advice about even that combination. The inclusion of the apple with the smoked salmon, red onion, cucumber, capers and goat cheese was so unusual that I wished he'd commented on why he included it. The absence of that sort of comment left me feeling he was talking to people he felt had little experience and little taste and were just looking for fast recipes to try. It was inherently boring for us to watch because we felt he was just making a recipe and offering no insight. I didn't feel he was talking to those who were already fans of his either.

I hope I'm not abusing my privilege here by going off topic for a minute, but I've found that over the past twenty years or so, the oyster selections in NY have improved vastly, while France and Brittany just seem to be recovering from certain disasters at sea. When I returned from my first visit to Brittany, I found the oysters in NY to be tasteless. Not so now. It may have been my imagination and maybe I gave up on them for twenty years too quickly, but in the forty years I've been eating oysters, things seem to have changed. There's no doubt in my mind that cold water oysters are just more exciting to eat. The best defense of Gulf (of Mexico) oysters I've read, is based on their meatiness and cheapness, rather than flavor. Health reasons may suggest cold water oysters as well, although I suppose if you're eating oysters for health, you're not eating oysters at all.

I would discuss that in the NY forum, but we've been eating out less often, or at least less often at the formal or creative end in NY. I have been experiencing fruit with fish for a long time and have gotten used to that to some extent. Pedro even remarked that he experienced the use of citrus fruit with seafood in NYC before he did in Madrid. I have also noticed an increasing appearance of tropical fruit in Chinese dishes that seem very much influenced by some pan Asian trends, although both Chinese and Japanese food incorporate sugar far in excess of that used in European savory dishes.

As are many of us Doc, I'm following your reports with interest and from time to time a comment or two brings a particular smile to my face, with a sense of having been there done that. While I did not go from Sant Pau to Cacao Sampaka and on to Cinc Sentits alone, I was forced to choose between joining my wife in early retirement and traipsing through the tapas bars in San Sebastian alone in the evening after large midday meals. It's hard work and someone has to do it. We should get medals, but instead it's crise de foie. If there's one thing consistent thread that's run though some of the most modern food I've had from Blumenthal in the UK, Adria and a number of others in Spain, that didn't thoroughly please me, it's sweetness in a savory course. I've actually run across this in France once as well where I found it most off putting.

For me, it's the exploration as well as the chance to make greater contact with the place. It's a kind of terrior of travel, although I'm not insistent on the wine being absolutely local. We discovered albariños some years back in the states, but have been tuned into Ruedas lately, especially verdejos in Spain. Generally we've found them both very nice white wines for food and generally inexpensive. It's a good point to remember that a wine labeled Rueda need not be made from verdejo grapes unless it's labeled as "Verdjo." The only albariños I've not particularly enjoyed have been the isolated examples that have been aged in oak. They are, or course, proudly offered at a premium price. Ditto for Ruedas, although I think over the years my tastes have changed back and forth on this. There are some whites from Catalunya worth trying as well.

The award is about food and restaurants, at least in good part and that's why Jamie's original post was on topic and why some of the recent thread hasn't been.

It seems as if one very food related aspect of Thanksgiving has been overlooked. It's a harvest holiday no matter how you look at it. Here it's looked at on TV with 22 men running around trying to control the harvest represented by a large pointed egg traditionally made from pigskin, a metaphor for the bounty of the farm and an animal designed to be put up for the winter as hams and sausages. I realize we here in US (Alaska excused for the moment) have our cold spots and you have your hot spots, but on the average, and national holidays seem to reduce us to the lowest common denominator, your last harvest occurs well before ours. Actually we pick oranges all winter long but Thanksgiving is about symbolism. So while you're eating turnips and potatoes, we're still picking berries. I know, there are going to be a lot of snowballs flying south across the border when you read this, but I'm just trying to explain why you have Thanksgiving in the middle of the summer.

I was in Vancouver, maybe five or six years ago. People seemed to treat me well enough and I hope I managed to stay our of everyone's way. What I remember most was being well fed, well wined and dined as a matter of fact. The beer was good too, although I'll not forget not being able to get a rare burger. There was more than enough compensation in geting my foie gras cooked right. We ate well in restaurants and we even conned a local friend of a friend we had entertained once in NY to invite us to dinner at home. Some here may have seen that as a civic duty so I wouldn't waste restaurant chairs reserved for locals. People are nice to you, but you never know what they're saying behind your back. The truth is, if you build a better restaurant, they'll come for dinner. Anyplace worth living in is worth visiting as long as it's got good restaurants. Of course if it hasn't got good restaurants, it's not worth living in or talking about. That may not be universally true, but it's kind of accepted at eGullet. And you guys have a bad attitude about wine. You don't ship it here. I've got to go there to get it. Actually I have no problem going where I'm not wanted--if the food's good. To paraphrase a successful campaign phrase, it's the food. That's why people come. They come to Vancouver to eat the food and they come to eGullet to talk about the food. The tourists who come here for other reasons are not enriching my life. They're also not posting in accordance with the agreement they made before being allowed to post here. Can we take the tourism politics, at least that which is unrelated to the quality of the food, off the board before we reach the point where we have to delete the thread.

Not in the chef, but possibly in the eye of the beholding judge.

I think not. Although I'm even less prepared to discuss Penrose than McGee, Penrose's work seems very theoretical and abstract, while MdGee set out to discover why what happens when we cook, happens and to make the connection to the basic workings of the natural world. While his curiosity was far beyond that of most cooks 20 years ago, his studies result in information that often has an immediate effect on how cooks think and prepare foods. They explain exactly why the results we see occur and sometimes explain why we've made the wrong attributions in the past between technique and results. While his thinking was outside that of conventional cooks then, his work, while still at the forefront of science in the kitchen, is known to most serious and professional cooks today. This is not to say that all of the book will be directly approachable and applicable to home cooking on a daily basis any more that we'd use all the words in the dictionary on a daily basis, but it should prove useful to anyone with a curiosity about the science of why things happen when we cook. I've got a dozen of those sort of blurbs, courtesy of the publisher.

It's nice to see Michael Laiskonis up there too, but I have to say that some of those affiliations are not exactly up to day. It looks as if this web page was written and fact checked a year ago. EDIT: Already under discussion here. The Michael Laiskonis announcement, I mean.

I'm quite prejudiced on this one and will only note that she's up against some formidable competition. On the other had, looking at her photo, I'll accept that she's got Jeffrey's vote all sewn up.