Pan

If you're asking do I think it's a bullshit argument, the answer is a resounding yes. But "know to be wrong"? Well, I'd rather hear the arguments on both sides than preempt one side by claiming to know the absolute truth one way or the other. When I got this story after editing I did some Googling and one of the first things that came up was this page. I looked at it. You know, the thing is, maybe it might even be true that MSG is harmful. But the problem is that Planck simply asserted that it's a "brain poison," and then, when confronted with why she also said that glutamates in their unprocessed form were OK, begged off, saying she wasn't an expert. So for me, the problem is that she is talking through her hat and doesn't have evidence to provide when confronted, even if such evidence exists. So, as I tried to post last night when for whatever reason, I was able to either post twice or not at all, there's a comparison to be made between Planck and the NY Times reporter who made up unsubtantiated "news" stories. I do get your points, though.

Oh well. Thanks for posting about your experience.

I usually go by myself, so I don't often get big dishes, but I'd recommend the following: Cold Dishes: Seaweed Spicy Cabbage Aromatic Sliced Beef I think the Kau Fu is better at the places across the street. NGB makes a pretty good Noodles with Meat Sauce. I also like their Smoked Fish Noodle Soup, their Aromatic Beef Noodle Soup, and various other noodle soups.

Pan: I am certainly not a chemist, but to answer your question the research says: Synthetic Vinegar means a liquid derived from Acetic acid Synthetic Vinegar shall conform to the following standards : 1. It shall contain at least 3.75 gms of acetic acid per 100 ml. 2. It shall contain i. Sulphuric acid or any other mineral acid ii. Lead or copper iii. Arsenic in amounts exceeding 1.5 parts per million iv. Any foreign substance or colouring matter except caramel Prasad, I can't believe any foodstuff would have lead in it by design. Do you mean that it won't have lead in it?

I see your points here, FG. So let's look at this one: How far along the "know to be wrong" continuum does "MSG is a brain toxin" go? See, I don't think that the piece is objectionable because I think everything soy is good for people in mass quantities. I frankly don't know about that one way or another and could use some evidence, whether pro or con, to help guide me. The problem is that Planck presents her case in a less-than-credible way. If I say the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq was good because Saddam was evil and had 50 hydrogen bombs at his disposal, is the alternative that Saddam was good and didn't have 50 hydrogen bombs at his disposal? Could it be that Saddam was bad but you disagree with the reasons given for launching an invasion that deposed him because you think they're untruthful? To me, it becomes a problem when the dispute is with the credibility of the messenger rather than the key point, which might have been that soy is best used sparingly, fermented, or combined with animal products. But given the way Planck presented her case, I don't know whether she established any of it to my satisfaction. Suppose I tell you that I'm against the Bush Administration because it cuts funding for education and takes orders from Martians. Have I presented a strong case or exposed myself to ridicule and cast doubt on the credibility of everything I say? And is it useful, then, to start a conversation that, on the evidence of this thread, seems to divide into those who are already anti-soy and the rest of us, who as far as I can tell are without exception not soy promoters but reject the extreme and unsupported propaganda that went along with Planck's anti-soy message? Do you see my point? (Note: Political points made purely for analogy, not to open off-topic discussions which concentrate exclusively on the reasons for the invasion of Iraq or the domestic policies of the Bush Administration.)

Thanks, Kris.

Prasad: What do you mean by "synthetic vinegar"? What is it made from and what makes it "synthetic"?

Perhaps it would be helpful if you said why you thought it was one of the better articles in TDG.

What part(s) of the chicken is the cartilege used in this dish from?

Katherine: I hate rose hips, too.

The "Mamster Lily." I have a serious question to ask: Does anybody here, besides Trillum, think that I should have rejected Nina Planck's article? Or do most believe that, on balance, despite what I do consider to be some flaws in the way the argument is presented, it was something that deserved to be published? Did everybody catch the part in the bio at the end about how HarperCollins is publishing a book-length version of much the same thesis that Nina Planck has been presenting (and will continue to present) in the pieces we're publishing in The Daily Gullet? Also, is anybody under the impression that it represents the viewpoint of anybody but its author? I think it's below the level of other things I've read on The Daily Gullet, so I question whether you should have published it. I think the best thing you could have done is - like a peer-reviewed journal - request revisions and publish the article only if suitable revisions had been made. Planck has admitted that she's made accusations she lacks enough information to back up. That makes them, in a scholarly sense, junk. As for the fact that a book is being published, so what? Lots of trash is published, and some of it sells well. If that's your standard for The Daily Gullet, I think that's problematic, too. On your last question, I'm under the impression that you share much of Planck's viewpoint, but only because you said you did. I don't assume that the articles represent the viewpoints of the eGullet staff, but I do suggest that you try to keep propaganda masquerading as facts out. Because Planck's article was so harsh and purple, I was shocked to read it.

The place sounds interesting, and I'm in that hood fairly often (and can walk there in about 20-25 minutes, anyway). Grimes mentions "dinner entrees." Does anyone know if the place is open for lunch (and perhaps cheaper then)?

Kris: Sorry about the late reply. My parents and I have hibiscus tea almost every day. We take it because experimental studies have shown that it lowers blood pressure 11 points on average (I don't remember whether those 11 points were systolic or/and diastolic). I also enjoy the bracingly tart taste of the tea. My recipe is as simple as can be: Put dried organic hibiscus flowers in a tea spoon (that is, one of those spoons that is really two perforated spoons that enclose around a substance), add hot water, steep, and drink. No sugar needed. But watch out lest you dye something red.

Mikey: We can talk more about Berlioz by PM or email if you like. I love Berlioz. But another question about the Ouzeria (and this is for anyone): Is it an annex to Uncle Nick's or otherwise owned or run by the same people?

Yeah, I'm sure that's the one. I think my father uses a couple of tablespoons. We love urad dal!

Sorry, Prasad: It's my father's cookbook and it's uptown at his place. Beats me which of the Jaffrey cookbooks it was. Hmmm...I think it's the semi-soft cover one (sort of a hard soft cover, if you know what I mean) that has intermediate-sized pages and pictures of some dishes inside. That's about the best I can do. And it might even be a false memory, as it might be from the hardcover cookbook... If I called him, he might or might not remember which one it was from, offhand (doubtful he'd remember the actual name of the book) but it's way too late at night for me to call him about such an unimportant matter.

Excellent post, Ed. During my visits to Thailand, Singapore, and Indonesia and my stay in Malaysia, I was struck by the fact that the local Chinese communities have developed new types of Chinese cuisine based on a combination of the food of the "Old Country" (whether that be Guangdong, Hainan, Hakka, Hokkien, or what have you), the influence of local ingredients, and the influence of aspects of non-Chinese cuisine in those countries (especially Thailand, it seemed to me in my brief trip there). While I'm skeptical of Chinese-Western fusion because I've found that it tends to water down what's tastiest about Chinese cooking, fusions of Chinese and Thai cuisine and fusions of Chinese cuisine with influences from other cooking they encountered in Malaysia and Singapore is terrific.

What would a French presentation of an Italian dish be?

I was there at 6 P.M., Mikey. It was in fact a pre-performance dinner. We went to Carnegie Hall last night for a literally awesome performance of the Berlioz Requiem. During the Tuba Mirum, it almost felt like the Earth was truly being shaken to its foundations.

Suvir: You'd be interested to know that my father cooks a Madhur Jaffrey Chettinad Chicken recipe, except that he quadruples the amount of urad dal, and it's very popular among my immediate family and their friends (mine, too, when they've been to my folks' for dinner). More recently, he found another recipe (I forget by who) of a different Chettinad Chicken that is even better.

Surely, you're not suggesting it's in any way justifiable or OK for her to counter that position with her own made-up stuff and half-truths, are you? I frankly question whether her article was all that worthy of being posted on this site, and until she provides a satisfactory explanation for some of her more purple prose, I won't be satisfied. It's my impression that the article contained at least some statements that were not even half-truths but simply false. Once again: What is it about the process of extraction that changes "good" "natural" glutamates into the "brain poison" called MSG? The best way to counter bullshit is with truth, not opposing bullshit. It does seem to me that there is an honest, accurate case to be made against soybeans. I don't think that fertilizing that case with bullshit will help it to grow up to be a healthy case.

Bonne chance, Louisa, or should I say <<Merde>>?

Where's the Ouzeria, Anil?

Loved your post, ecr! I hope you stick around. I've spent only part of one summer in China (c. 4 1/2 weeks, 10 days of which were in Hong Kong), but I do have one comment: I did find I was often unfavorably comparing food I had in China in 1987 to the great Chinese food I had had in Malaysia, Singapore, and Thailand between 1975 and 1977, but my conclusion was that the most important element of delicious food was good ingredients, and that good ingredients were a product of a society that is in some sense wealthy. Most Malaysians I knew were poor - though that is a relative term, and most were not as poor as most Chinese ten years later, I daresay - but the country was wealthy in excellent and affordable fresh produce. It seemed to me in my admittedly limited travels that that was much less true of the east coast of China in 1987 (by the way, this excludes Guangdong, which I didn't visit), but it was true of Hong Kong then (which had a wealthy enough populace to cause local markets to be chock-full of fresh produce from every neighboring region), and that helped make Hong Kong food excellent. But there was one place I visited in China then where delicious food was found at every turn: Hangzhou. And I think that had a lot to do with the fertility of the local farms and the availability of excellent fresh-water fish and shrimp from Xi Hu.

Exactly. If glutamates and glutamic acid are fine in "natural" forms, what is it in the extraction process that turns them into "brain poisons"? Absent some logical argument substantiated by data, this doesn't pass the smell test.