Pan

I'm glad someone is reading this thread.

I'm not talking about judgments. And I'm not talking about functionality--of course food is ultimately meant to be eaten as well as appreciated visually. I'm saying that food, especially at the highest levels (finest restaurants) can convey a message, and that message is non-representational, non-verbal, and as difficult to articulate as a "philosophy of art" or a "philosophy of sculpture" would be. More so, because the gustatory descriptives are more subjective. ← Please give one or a few examples. (And I'm not convinced that taste in food is more subjective than, say, a listener's interpretation of a Beethoven sonata. But perhaps this thread is no longer about which art is "most abstract," but about how cooking and dining can be abstract.)

Are you sure you have the spelling right? In Malay (and I believe Indonesian), "pondan" means "homosexual," with the connotation of "faggot"! ← Yepper! Here is the companies website http://www.pondan.com/ ← Wow, that's amazing! I hope someone who knows colloquial Indonesian will clarify whether the word means something different than it does in Malay. Carry on!

Thanks, I appreciate your perspective as always. Guilty as charged, perhaps with the additional malfeasance of eating a side dish without a main dish. I did eat rice while finishing the leftovers this morning - does that atone? ← Sort of, but you didn't quite get my meaning. In Malaysian food, _everything_ but the rice (or noodles) is a side dish! "Lauk" means "the stuff that gets put on the rice"!

Hi, Randi. Hang in there and have fun; I'll be following along and cheering on the sidelines.

Ask her which regional Chinese cuisine(s) will be the next to take off in North America. Ask her about the future of high-end Chinese cuisine in North America.

Here's another thread many of you would find interesting (I did!): Trip Report: Northern Vietnam for Tet

Take a gander at the photos on this thread: Malaysia, Singapore, and Hong Kong, selected pics from a recent trip

I'll bet waiters in Japan get a higher salary and more benefits. Plus, they don't have the same kind of ridiculous medical expenses we have here. For the record, I tend to tip something over 20%.

Are you sure you have the spelling right? In Malay (and I believe Indonesian), "pondan" means "homosexual," with the connotation of "faggot"!

Bruce, that kari terung (they'd call it "gulai terung" on the East Coast of Malaysia where I used to live) looks Malaysian, but eating the lauk (side dish) without your nasi (cooked rice)? Jahat (~somewhere between "wicked" and "naughty")!

Are you talking about anything other than the fact that people make judgments about what they eat? I'm not understanding your point.

Where did I write that? I would think that it is a good businessperson, above all, who would give people what they want, so that's a commercial rather than artistic consideration (although the boundaries between "art for art's sake" and art created to the specifications desired by customers are certainly fluid). Which is true of some arts and not others (such as architecture, painting, sculpture...) I don't agree that the highest level of any art has to challenge. That's just one possibility. High (and arguably "low," if these terms even have any objectively definable meaning) art can also delight, edify, console, excite, inspire, give spiritual sustenance, promote loving feelings, and do so many other things. Please speak for yourself! I don't find durian disgusting, and if I did, I wouldn't consider it "art" (unless God or Nature is the artist), merely a form of fruit I considered unappealing. The thing that bugs me about occasional threads like this is that it's not enough for some of you to establish how cuisine is an artistic medium; you feel impelled to make arguments about how it's somehow the "best" (or in this case, "most abstract") medium. Nothing personal to any of you, but I find arguments about which artistic medium is "best" to be puerile and sterile. Rather than to advance the notion that a concrete medium to be consumed is "most abstract," it would make more sense to have a discussion about WHETHER and HOW cuisine COULD be abstract! That discussion could be interesting and actually advance knowledge and thinking about food, in keeping with the eGullet Society's Statement of Purpose.

I take your point, Sam. I'd just point out that Cantonese steamed whole fish dishes are not very fatty and are a standard and delicious dish in good Cantonese restaurants. But I doubt that most people who go for Sweet and Sour Pork for takeout are ordering steamed whole fish much.

That's true. But what did you mean about it having to become a memory to reveal the full potential of its art? (And by the way, here again, music unfolds in time. So does a play, a movie, etc. This is a commonality of a bunch of different art forms and just plain experiences.) ← When it gets eaten it then becomes a memory. Once the chef prepares it, if it doesn't get eaten it's only partially appreciated. It's full potential is in it's consumption so the communication between creator and consumer can be fully realized. ← That makes perfect sense. My only quibble, and it's a small one, is that the experience of appreciating the creation of the dish is strongest while eating it. A memory can never be as strongly felt as the actual taste, smell, and mouthfeel of a dish one is in the process of eating.

Interesting. First of all, yes, eating can be a sport: Look at all those hot-dog-eating competitions! But I don't think it's necessary to make something new for it to be art. A beautiful execution of a particular dish for the millionth time is somewhat analogous to the millionth time a musician performs a Bach sonata, except that it seems hard to imagine a musician performing anything a million times in one lifetime. But the point here is that in either case, it is at least arguably of aesthetic value.

Kiev was never close to being as good as Teresa's, and in its last few years as a Ukranian restaurant, it was terrible! But the main point is that one after another, the cheap restaurants in the East Village are being forced out by skyrocketing rents. The place I miss most from yesteryear is the old Leshko's, where you could get a plate of good pierogies (arguably the best in the neighborhood) for $1.50, through the late 90s or so, I think. (My favorite discount hardware and sundries store on 2nd Av. was also priced out and nothing has yet moved in, showing that the landlord was greedy to the nth degree.)

Two.

Thank you! I'm allergic to Windex, so I hate it when they use that (or Fantastik) in my presence. Mopping floors with something containing ammonia is also awful.

I was at Il Laboratorio with a friend this afternoon. I asked for and received three free samples from the friendly counterwoman, and was then given what seemed like a perfectly normal portion of two terrific flavors that went together well: Maple walnut and buttermilk -- sweet and sour. The Maple walnut tasted like I was eating strong Grade A or possibly a mix of Grades A and B maple syrup. My friend is from Rome and was happy with her gelato -- coffee, which was really strong. She and I chatted with the owner some. So, anyway, in no way am I discounting your experience, but in my admittedly limited experience with Il Laboratorio, I've found them fine.

Can you please elaborate? ← A person (the chef) enjoys making and creating and designing it. The recipient enjoys seeing and interpreting it and eating it so it becomes a memory, disappears. ← That's true. But what did you mean about it having to become a memory to reveal the full potential of its art? (And by the way, here again, music unfolds in time. So does a play, a movie, etc. This is a commonality of a bunch of different art forms and just plain experiences.)

Chris, I'm sure the Ayam Panggang was good, but next time, try macadamia nuts; they're a good substitute for candlenuts.

A restaurant should refuse service in that situation, unless it chooses to engage in charity. ← Thank goodness we cleared that up... ← Did you think anyone was suggesting that eating for free was acceptable? That's not the topic at hand. My main point was already made: Don't create a "solution" that's worse than the problem.

Can you please elaborate?

I would call it abstract because it conveys a message indirectly. Also, not *all* art is as abstract as a Mondrian. ← That's not the point at all. The claim, easily disproven, is that food is the "most abstract" art. _Any_ artistic medium can be whimsical! Have a look at Paul Klee's work, which has no additional function of being eaten! And listen to music by Joseph Haydn. You want a really abstract art? Check out music!