Steve Plotnicki

This is a great post. If I can add to some of the descriptions you have posted so far. traditional French haute cuisine - Let us perform for you. We have mastered culinary technique to the extent that we have removed the inconveniences that come with eating. That wonderfully delicious soup that you are eating is actually vegetable soup even though there is not a vegetable to be found anywhere. Through pureeing, straining and the cooking process, we have made it perfectly smooth and without any extraneous bits. And the texture, consistancy and thickness is a metaphor for your success in life. High art - We have raised the spector of performance into a quasi artform. Through techniques we have devised, we will extract the essence of an ingredient and that process us will allow us to change its form. And in the process, you will discard your notion about how certain food relates to other food as well as how food relates to your life More later

Whatever the amount of 5 meals at the individual restaurants are, even if they come out to $750, that still costs far less then $1875.00.

Notwithstanding any particular diner's right to pay that amount of money for novelty, one can eat dinner at Blue Hill, Union Pacific and a third place for that much money. Nothing about what you have said about the dinner, or what you have posted, could lead anyone to conclude that the dinner is worth the price being charged. Especially when it is compared to the price of eating dinner elsewhere. I'd rather pay $500 and eat five dinners in those chef's own restaurants.

That price is outrageous price. No wonder Amex Platinum is pushing it.

Robert - Well that would be terrific if someone could illustrate techniques that are worth knowing about which are currently in use by some high end Italian chefs. In fact I would very much like to read that a certain restaurant in Italy is on the "must go to list" like Troisgros or El Bulli would be.

He was Ticinese? But his studio was in Paris correct? Maybe I should amend my statement to say, French, or practiced their art or craft in France.

Nah. I would buy anything you are selling Fat Guy. At least one time.

You know there is no reason to be insulting about any of this. So far at least four different people on this thread have admonished you for the personal attacks and slurs and you just keep on going. It is always a pleasure when someone can contribute to a conversation on the merits, even when they disagree with you providing it is in earnest. But if you can't do that, or don't want to do that, or can't accept the premise of the conversation, your behavior is calculated at being insulting and disruptive. This board is really not an appropriate place for that behavior.

Francesco - Your retrun to the site after a few days of absence is welcomed. But let me clarify my point about chefs cookbooks. Being translated into english is just one of the standards, the other standard I used is whether the cookery specialty shops in the U.K. and U.S. import the books. And of the chefs you listed I've never seen any of their books (current releases over the last 5 years) imported by either Kitchen Arts & Letters in NYC or Books for Cooks in London. But the section on modern Spanish restaurants is loaded with releases (in Spanish,) many of them top sellers to the professional chef/amateur chef/foodie customer base. There is even a reasonable business for German cookbooks. But Italy, for some reason that I don't understand, has no buzz. You even admit this yourself when you say; Well that is the whole point. And the reason it is that way is that in my experience, your basic top tier Italian restaurant is at best, very good. I haven't heard anyone come back from Italy saying that the meal they had at one of the top places is unbelieveable. Because if they had, then we would all be going all of the time. As Robert Brown always says, the proof is in the pudding. I don't think there is any shortage of people on this board who have eaten at Marchesi, Al Sorriso, Vissani, Dal Pescatore, Aimo e Nadia etc. And while you hear people speak well of those places, you don't hear many people say, "my god, that was one of the most delicious meals of my life featuring the most creative cooking." That is what Italian alta cucina is missing. The buzz that something special is going on there. Just having good food isn't enough. It needs to be good enough so that people are willing to go out of their way for it.

Although I don't subscribe to the BYO glass theory very much, I keep a dozen Riedel Vinum tasting glasses "on file" at Jarnac. But I have friends who schlep their own glasses everywhere. Some of them have special leather cases. But some just carry the Riedel boxes into a restaurant, use the glasses, put them back in the boxes dirty, and bring them back home to wash them. But I don't agree with Mogsob's and Nesita's reasoning of "don't eat there." Unfortunately, a restaurants menu, rules etc., are arbitrary and they are set up to manage meals the common denominator diner. I don't see why all of those details aren't negotiable? And I don't see why bringing your own wine, glasses or asking for off-menu dishes isn't acceptable? Why should diners who are atypical accept things on their face? In many instances the restaurant is more then willing to imporve various aspects of your meal with a surcharge. Where is the harm in asling and then doing if the answer is yes, for a price?

Gee I didn't notice any difficulty sitting in that $200,000 Pierre Chareau chair. Nor did I notice that my haute cuisine dish that included truffles and foie gras tasted bad. So I guess that means "applique" is where the money is, providing it has function too.

Pumpkino - You keep making the same mistake over and over again. I'm sure your little country restaurant near Ebrusco is wonderful and I'm sure I would enjoy it. But what that has to do with a conversation about the Italian equivelant of haute cuisine I do not know. That is the only narrow issue I am addressing. Why the Italians haven't figured out how to succeed at a local version of haute cuisine (that garners interest outside of Italy) the way the French, British, and Americans have. And I ate at Marchese twice when he was in his original premises in Milan when Italian haute cuisine had a lot of excitement going on all around it. That must have been between 1987-1990. But since that time the world has lost interest in it. Oraklet - I have to take exception. French art nouveau, deco and post deco (like Royere and Prouve) are the creme de la creme of furniture from the first half of the 20th century. Not that there aren't important deisgners from other countries, but if you were to aggregate all of the great works by country the French would by far outshine everyone. One of the ways that is reflected is by what the furniture now sells for on the market. You have pieces by French designers selling for nearly $500,000. I don't think there are Danish equivelents of that. But again, I will let the experts speak about it in more detail.

Thank you Signore Pumpkino for revealing your credentials Oraklet - Your statement just isn't true. Scandinavian furniture might have been an important style during the 20th century on a mass produced level, but French art deco of the 20's-30's would be the "finest" if you use price at auction as a measure. Even at the highest end, Alvo Altar (sp?) furniture doesn't sell for the same prices as pieces by the French deco masters like Ruhlmann, Chareau etc., let alone pieces by Giacometti. But fortunately, both Robert S. and Robert B are going to be expert on this topic and will know current market value for things like Geoge Jensen silverware etc.

The classic "dusted with mushroom powder dish" was Jean-George's loin of lamb dusted with porcini. I'm not sure if J-G invented the technique or not but it was certainly the first time I ever saw it. And it was a long time ago as well.

Cold pressed virgin olive oil should be used within a year of it being pressed and bottled/tinned. Whether it goes rancid after a year is another matter. I've seen cans that have, and I've seen cans that last much longer. But usually two years is the limit and I can smell the deterioration in the oil. Can't speak for other kinds of oils. I once had a friend schlep a bottle of walnut oil back from the Dordogne. It was poured into the bottle while he waited. It was only supposed to last for 120 days, but we used it for years. It was the most amazing oil I ever tasted.

Since argon oil is something that gets added to food that has already been cooked, I'm trying to understand what gastronomic purpose it serves in the meal?

Cabby - I just read your Oct 13 report and it sounds great. But why did you drink rose with that meal? You should have had Maneschevitz . But if you insist on drinking real wine, I think you need to go with a sweet wine.

Bux - Were they still serving the spring menu or have they switched to the fall menu yet?

Apicius & Taillevent. That is ancient Rome and the 14th century I believe so the tradition is a long one. And of course there is Escoffier which is where the current tradition of intensified focus on chefs begins. But don't you think the growth of the media as a business and travel as an industry is what propelled the chef to such amazing star status? The travel industry needed to give us "a reason to go there," so much so that the world's most influential food critic is a tire company that sells the information as a way to organize your travel. And the media industry is always desperate for what is new and interesting and they need to tell us in more detail "why we need to go there." It's in that light that "relevant" is cast. I think that the phenomenon of chefs, really artisans, as celebrities once again brings us back to the notion of an emerging middle class. Consumers need overt signs that what they do, or that what they like is justified. Their desires and more importantly, their feelings about things need to be ratified by an independant source and the media has stepped in to play that role. Whether it is liking a rock band like the Rolling Stones, or whether it is liking your meal at Robuchon, they both come with the knowledge that lots of other people feel the same way about it. Without going too far out on a tangent, I think one of the main differences between art and craftsmanship is the need to compromise one's work for the consumers benefit. Being a craftsman is a business. And people like songwriters, cabinetmakers and chefs, without an audience or customers to buy their work they have nothing. And I think that rung of service provider for society was an easy one to glorify. And in hindsight it isn't surprising that one of the major occurences of the 20th century was that a market was made for these types of craftsmen on an international basis. None of that could have been done without the media. Before the second half of the 20th century, who would have thunk that the future of cooking lay in that fact that distinctly middle class people from all over the world would have mashed potatoes as one of the reasons they were going to France for their vacation? By the way, I went to Kitchen Arts & Letters yesterday to see about Italian cookbooks. They only knew of two books that had been translated into English. One is the book from Don Alfonso I mentioned in this thread. That was released within the last six months. The other book is from Heinz Beck who cooks at the Hilton in Rome and that was released within the last year or so. But other than those two, there has never been a single Italian chef whose book has been translated into english. Not even Gualtiero Marchesi when he had three stars. I find that amazing. By the way, and to put everything into perspective, as far as I know of, none of the Spanish chefs have been translated into english either. But their books, including books about modern Spanish cooking in general are huge sellers as imports.

Actually I left out Louise Berthole, Secrets of the Great French Restaurants. A tour de force in its day listing countless recipes from famous chefs and restaurants. And it saddens me to see so many mentions of Verge's books. Le Moulin was once upon a time such a great place to dine.

JD - Sorry I missed this point. Actually what I argue is that French cuisine involves more demanding technique then other cuisines. That is why it is so dominant a worldwide basis. And which is why people follow and are interested in the chefs. They razzle dazzle everyone wth their technique. It's for the same reasons that people follow any type of performer. Their technique is interesting. It's true for everyone from Ferran Adria to Tiger Woods. But if we look at your bottarga example, while making the dish delicious, there isn't enough technique involved for the bottarga shaver to become famous. Because while shaving bottarga thin is an art, it's doesn't expend as much technique as making a perfect souffle.

If you go down that line of thinking, the simpler conclusion is that Italian cooking philosophy has been fully realized and that is why there is no "improvement of technique" beyond the classic technique. The same phenomenon has been happening to the French over the last 20 years. The improvements are more like individual flourishes amongst various chefs like Passard's minimalism or Gagnaire's improvisational style. One can say that those are just affectations added to the French lexicon and not substantive improvements. Spain is obviously a place where technique is being improved. The U.S. and Britain too. But maybe Italian cuisine, like Chinese, Moroccan, Turkish etc. has exhausted itself. That phenomenon isn't unusual when it comes to the practice of artistry. When was the last time you heard someone write an opera that become popular? Or when was the last good Impressionist painting painted?

David - It was a joke. Obviosuly you haven't been following the conversation about this topic on another thread.

Pumpkino you oaf - You keep talking about how the food tastes and I keep talking about how much publicity and notice they are getting. When I say that there is very little word of mouth about Italian cuisine, hardly any cookbooks published and imported into the U.S. and U.K., and there aren't many articles published on the chefs or restaurants, that has nothing to do with how the food tastes. It has to do with how "relevant" those chefs and restaurants are to the worldwide dining community. Maybe they are serving the most delicious and inventive food in the world (they're not but it's possible) but that woudn't make my statement wrong. The issue is acclaim outside of Italy. It's the same for Rick Stein and other chefs who are poissoniers. The issue is that he is famous. Whomever you are speaking of is not, i.e., has no "relevance." As for Arzak, since you are having a problem rebutting my proffer regarding acclaim, you insist on reading what I wrote in a way that suits you. I wrote that it was possible I was there on an off night. So my statement about higher standards applies *only if that is the best they can do.* Because when I was there, they were pretty much serving what I would call a refined version of Basque cuisine without much inventiveness to it. Things like Clams and Hake in a refined green sauce. That dish, while a fine dish, is in no way in my mind a haute cuisine dish. In fact from memory, every dish they were serving was a refined version of traditional cuisine and that is why I called it "correct" (which is a term I borrowed from the critic Patricia Wells who describes restaurants that serve classic cuisine without much creativity but where the food is perfectly fine in that manner.) I also said that according to other eaters I trust, they have had similar opinions to mine. Most of them tell me the best food in the area is at Zubaroa (sp?) but I haven't been.

Is it open to all members?