thom

Thanks for the tips guys, that's most useful. Happy to return the favour if you fancy a jaunt to sunny Manchester. Cheers Thom

Hey guys, I wondered if I might pick your brains RE my planned trip to Valencia. I'll be travelling with my partner and two kids (3 1/2 and 6 months old), probably in early September and we have been yearning to find a holiday destination which ticks the following boxes: Direct air flight from manchester (transfers and airport delays with children are awful). Relaxed family atmosphere with is good for kids. Good weather, but not too hot. Parks and ideally a beach to let said kids run wild for extended periods. Wonderful food which is accesible to people with, yes, kids. A city which is cosmopolitan and is accessible to visitors but without being too touristy. You know it's scary to note almost all those points above revolve around children. I guess you realise when you become a parent that you being happy depends on making sure they are happy... Anyway, I had really wanted to take my girlfriend to Italy but couldn't get easy flights to the places I wanted to visit (Bolgna etc) and I checked out Valencia because my mum is due to visit soon, and because an old friend lived out there for several years. I was delighted to see that not only does the city have a beach nearby and some fantastic parks (and a world-class aquarium!) but it also seems to be making a name for itself in gastromic terms. Result! Against all the criteria listed above it seems it could be the perfect place. My question to you good folk of eGullet though would be where should we go to sample the best culinary delights of the city but with kids in tow? Our youngest will sleep anywhere so no problem. Our eldest is generally pretty well behaved but I would prefer places that welcome having kids in there rather than just tolerating them (that goes for fellow diners as well as the staff) and generally that rules out formal stuffy places. Also, we have to get the kids down for around 7-ish so we will probably just remain in the hotel to eat and drink in the evening. The key therefore is places for lunch or informal daytime eating. We would like to feel that we had maybe found places only locals no, and eaten the "proper" cuisine of Valencia. I'm not one for ticking "must-do" places off a list so I'm happy to avoid the big names and "talked about" places if someone can steer me to the hidden gems. Thanks in advance for all your help on this. I hope I can return the favour if any of you should decide to visit Manchester! Cheers Thom

You'd think so, but actually the first person who mentioned the star to me was Michael Caines himself down at the Catey's last year. I'm guessing this has been the line from the top down and his local PR have led in with the bullish line. I haven't actually eaten in Abode, but people who have tell me it's pleasant (and sometimes patchy) but certainly not Michelin-aspiring. Why would Michael and his team say Abode in Manchester will be? As for the Relish comment, I heard the same thing. Did you hear it at the Food and Drink Festival launch or did the local press pick up on it? Ah well, as you say, we still have Red Chilli... Cheers Thom

I just do not see the Michelin thing for Abode. Getting the talent and keeping it in Manchester is very tough. Getting the diners to appreciate what you are doing will also take time. Doing all this whilst making a restaurant commercially viable is the real challenge. Doing all this, whilst making a restaurant commercially viable, in a tucked away basement site in a hotel (amongst three other hotels with decent food offerings) in Picadilly (a very non-dining/heavy drinking end of town, albeit it's changing) will, I think, be nigh on impossible. I don't doubt for one minute Abode could contain a very nice restaurant (as Bertie says that alone would be great) but I think the only way it will get a star is if Michael ups sticks and moves in to do the job himself. I don't know whether PR gurus have decided that announcing an intention to clinch Michelin for Manchester is the way to introduce a restaurant to the city and get the populance onside but I fear they have been grossly misinformed. I am waiting, patiently, for someone to open a restaurant with no PR agency, no launch party, no courting of B-list celebrities, no grand claims and no flouncing out after twelve months if the high-falutin' business plan isn't holding up. We need someone to come in under the radar, take a dog of a site for a pittance of rent and rates meaning they don't need volume to survive, and then just cook. Consistently and passionately and excellently. Like Anthonys. Really this is half heartfelt lament and half a cheap shot at reverse psychology, hoping my words directly or indirectly spurs Abode on to new heights and possibly even a star. If, of course, Michael Caines reads this. And if, more to the point, he could care less what I think... Cheers Thom

Quite apt that on a foodie website I cannot help but bite... My point has always been that Manchester has serious failings in fine dining, but not necessarily in good places to eat per se. In addition, I must say RDB that if Paul and Katie don't have you on the payroll already then they should do so without further ado... Juniper can have some truly wonderful moments, but I think it's laying a bit much at it's door to state that it is the panacea (not Panacea) to all Manchester's dining ills. Cheers Thom

El Gato I haven't been to (yet), but from reviews and feedback I would place it and El Rincon at very different end of the scales. Both very good, but very very different. Anyway, El Rincon is on a street whose name I forget, but basically you need to be on Deansgate, heading away from the Kendals end towards Castlefield. After you cross the Peter St/Quay St junction look for your next right which should be Great John Street which is a little Georgian street with all the doctors brass name plates on. Then, hang first right again and you are in a small back alley. The first major door is a club called Ampersand and the second, just before the eponymous "corner", is to El Rincon. I think actually it might be called Longworth St? To have a successful restaurant in a basement site in such a tucked away location is quite something. That said it is only a stones throw from Granada and was always very popular with assorted Corrie actors etc when they wanted to avoid the paps. Anyway, you never did you Juniper write-up did you you lazy git? Cheers Thom

Rafas is a great place - one of my favourites in Manchester - but you have to know what you are in for. It is a pretty authentic tiled basement tapas bar, but although the food is always enjoyable and the atmosphere is excellent don't expect high cuisine or a gastronomic awakening. The food is very decent and I like the fact that the menu is much more adventurous that you would find in La Tasca et all (it has a special section for stews, with plenty of tripe!) but they do have a fondness for the microwave with tortillas etc which is disappointing. The wine list suits the food admirably but the best thing is, as described above, the atmosphere. It feels 'properly' Spanish without being a theme bar. It's always busy (you'd stuggle without booking on a Tues/Wed evening and no where else in Manchester could say that), the service is quick and friendly, and when full the place has a clattering, racous energy which really does make you feel like you're on holiday. It's been there around 15 years or so (started by an Spaniard who is an ex professional footballer - well, Stockport County) and it really is an unsung gem in Manchester's restaurant scene. It doesn't do PR, or advertise, or win awards, or ever get a 'buzz' about it, but people just relentlessly and repeatedly chose to eat there. Cheers Thom

Tom, Cheers for the update, I wondered how you got on! Glad Rafa's hit the spot, it's one of Manchester's hidden secrets and is astoundingly busy every day of the week. Cheers Thom

Weirdly enough, someone in the office suggested this place only yesterday. It is indeed done by the gang behind Living Room (they have refurbed the old Est Est Est site after they bought the chain last year) and they are very much gunning for the Restaurant Bar and Grill market (which actually is also worth recommending - people take it for granted now but it is always a safe bet for a big night out). I went for the soft launch and my team have been since and on both occassions the feedback was generally good. It's not cheap, and the concept can feel a bit contrived (ie a tank of live lobsters which is never touched regardless of how many plates of lobster the kitchen actually sends out) but the food is not bad at all. I had steak (not kobe) and lobster which was actually excellent and cooked to perfection and a clam chowder which was not bad at all. The menu is exactly as you would expect from a pseudo-American high end grill joint but the emphasis on quality ingredients lifts the interest levels a bit. I found the decor a bit bland (how many more cream and brown/leather banquette and exposed brick places can we take) but it is undoubtably expensively put together. I also found the clientele a bit Cheshire or, worse still, wannabe Cheshire. This may be better or worse on the weekends. Oh, and don't be fooled into believing they have a 'bar' area. They have a bar along which you can stand/sit squeeze but you in a narrow corridor between the entrance and reception and end up getting jostled by diners or staff for as long as you can bare to stay there. I think you'd certainly have a good night there and be well looked after but it depends if the atmosphere suits and if you are happy with an largely unexciting but accessable menu, albeit with decent quality ingredients and competent cooking. It's a polished place but I must admit I've not rushed back. Maybe I'm being a bit harsh. Cheers Thom

The Marble Arch is fantastic and well worth a visit if you like 'pub' pubs. In fact, I took Bapi and Gary there on our last Manchester jolly. Whether they remember it or not is another matter... Like AJNichols it was my local (within 50m) from 1999 till 2004 and I loved it dearly. It's lock-ins were legendary and I kind of liked the fact that the only food you could get were Seabrooks crisps or Tunnock Teacakes and Caramels. I used to do a mini-pub crawl from there to the Pot of Beer and the Beer House (The Pot of Beer is now RIP, has the Beer House followed yet?) which was a joy as I was never more than 150m from my front door. The pubs were part of the reason we took the pioneering (at the time) decision to move North of Miller St (in the words of a 'local' friend of mine - "You're paying how much to move to Collyhurst!?"). The only things I missed (as a pub-chav) were Sky for the football and a pool table. You've probably discovered them anyway AJNichols but there's a pub down the back-streets across Rochadale Road called, I think, the Hat and Feathers which has an excellent pool table, and football can be had in the atmospheric confines of the Hare and Hounds on Shudehill. Halcyon days... Have you made your decisions yet then Tom? Cheers Thom

Ohhh... Now this is one of those 'I could go on all day' style questions. I won't though, partly because I risk repeating or rehashing similar Manchester threads past (anything in the last twelve months should still be pretty current) and partly because I am at home, using my girlfriends computer, which has a sticky space bar and is driving me up the wall. To recap - The brief (and I will be brief) is a weekend place for group of friends with good drinking. Ok, here goes: The Cotton House is awful. The Bridge is in new hands, and has reverted to 'pub grub'. For curry, try EastZEast underneath the Ibis at the BBC end of Princess St. Avoid Rusholme. Groups of mates find happy eating/drinking at Rafas El Rincon (down and dirty but tremendously enjoyable basement tapas) Piccolino/Croma (both reliable mid-market Italian's), Sam's or Mr Thomas' Chophouses (hearty Brit stodge in snug surroundings - see Jay's recent review). Chinatown is still good. Yang Sing can be fun if you let the waiter/waitresses do the ordering and Red Chilli is unbeatable if you explore the scary Sichuan dishes (and the lamb chilli broth). Jay took a gaggle of chefs/'celebs' there recently and at least one proclaimed it the best Chinese they had ever eaten. Otherwise if food is to take a back seat to drinking and atmoshphere then try the Northern Quarter. There are plenty of places there that do decent bar food such as Odd, Centro and Trof but most importly this area has the best bars in town. Socio Rehab for cocktails, and wonderful beer lists in Trof, Odd, Centro and more. Stock is ok, but I'm never overly impressed and it can be a bit poncey. By contrast the food at Harvey Nichols brasserie can be excellent but the atmosphere can be weird and a little sterile as the dining space is completely open (though you do get to peer into the food hall). Outside the city centre may not be an option, but if it is then GemandI and the Lime Tree and excellent, but very different, options. There, that's briefish isn't it? Cheers Thom Edit to add: Gaucho is actually a good call. It's a weird, though impressive, subterranean space and the steaks really are knock-out. I know several chefs who go there religiously for their red meat fix.

As far as I understand it was all just a bit of a scare-story whipped up by images of Chinese restaurants tipping industrial sized bags of scary looking chemicals into stirfrys. The facts are that MSG is in almost every way like salt, it just has a scarier name (Monosodium Glutamate rather than Sodium Chloride). In it's refined state it is a white granular substance. Like salt. It enhances flavours. Like salt. It naturally occurs in many tasty foods (parmasan, soy sauce). Like salt. In high doses it can make your throat dry or give you a headache as it dehydrates you. Like salt. Isn't it meant to be the substance that supplies the recently discovered sixth taste of 'umami'? The thing that gets me with things like this is when people say 'well yes but too much is bad for you'. Well yes, but 'too much' anything is bad for you; as Stephen Fry pointed out that's precisely what 'too much' means - an amount above a safe or advisable limit. Too much water is bad for you, as is too much oxygen. Anyway, I'm all for less additives in food but personally I worry less about salt animal fats or even MSG (which has been used in Asian cookery for ages) than pesticides, growth hormones, steroids, antibiotics etc. That's my, possibly factually incorrect, Friday afternoon two-pennoth worth anyway. Cheers Thom

Thank goodness it is only once a year... See, I'm even too busy to engage in mild banter. Cheers Thom

Loooooooong... And all in all very enjoyable. Or at least what I can remember was mostly enjoyable. Rather frantic here right now what with the show and the awards next week (Northern Restaurant and Bar exhibition and the Northern Hospitality Awards - plug plug) so a proper write-up is beyond me for the moment... That said, one of the nerdier amongst us did request a copy of the menu so I can only imagine they are planning to do a blow by blow, definitive, 'painting pictures with words' style writeup of the gastronomic experience that was Juniper. Over to you then Bapi. Cheers Thom

Why I oughta'... Cheers Thom

I think he's more of a lap dog to be honest. Cheers Thom

I hear they have a "care in the community special menu" on Fridays and I am aiming to do my bit for the less fortunate by taking a couple of hairy-palmed social inadequates from eGullet along there this very week*. Plastic cutlery and supersize bibs all round me thinks. I'll report back on how it all goes. Cheers Thom *As long as work doesn't make my head explode in the meantime.

You can if you can sell. Cheers Thom

Hmmm... Eight years in and I'm still going strong. I'll give you the name of my accountant. And, just in case anyone from the tax office is reading this, I stress restaurant visits genuinely are for research and are critical to the continued good health of my business. Phew. Cheers Thom

My reply obviously took longer than everybody elses. That's what comes of trying to be a smart-arse after a very long day... Say more with less Thom, say more with less... Sorry if this now appears a little mob-handed Sunbeam, but I guess it is a point we all feel strongly about. Cheers Thom

Hmmm... Where to begin. In short (the long bit will follow) I don't think it is to do with a lack of scruples, old-fashioned or otherwise, I think it is to do with an understanding of what eGullet is. EGullet is in the public domain. Anyone can post and anyone can read posts. There are plenty of sites which are members only or have restricted areas (Bapi, not the sort of sites you might peruse) and although that model works I actually enjoy the open, accessible and inclusive nature of eGullet. I think everybody does (or should) understand you shouldn't write anything here which you wouldn't be happy to have read by anyone, any where, any time. I have an image of Joan Collins and Leonard Rossiter... Chefs and critics do come here, and seemingly in ever greater numbers. I think the dialogues between punter and pro is mutually beneficial and hugely enjoyable and it is what makes some of the content of the site so compelling. I think by and large everyone is trusting and respectful of differing viewpoints and I don't see that the relationship between the two sides of the pass is in danger of being damaged. Personally, I think the above is pretty much an indisputable given - The eGullet model is set and it has it's pro's and con's. If you're here, it should be because it works for you. There is though another seperate but linked point which is that for eGullet to thrive it needs people and participation, and for that it needs profile. There has been a history here (see threads of ancient times) of lazy journalists loitering around on here, nicking the topics and concepts which our fevered food-nerd minds throw up and writing them up in their esteemed organ as their own musings. Possibly that is a little paranoid, but I seem to remember a couple of instances appeared pretty nailed on. Of course this isn't important in the grand scheme of things but I think it shows a little disrespect. A lack of scruples. You can see where I am going with this. Although Jay is an appalling human being with bad points and character flaws to numerous to mention I applaud him for taking the time to flag up eGullet and it's input into his writings to a winder audience of foodies. Of course once eGullet does go 'overground' and become a mass market phenomenon we old-timers can bitch about the unruly newcomers and declare the spirit of the site lost, the soul of eGullet diluted and bastardised for commercial gain and then either set up a splinter site (The Judean People's Front?) or just sit in the corner grumbling. That's what being part of a web community is all about Cheers Thom

It was research Bapi, research, and therefore an entirely reasonable expense in the eyes of Mr Taxman. Back to Hi-Life, although you are only meant to use the card in each place once (they have a system of numbered squares on the back of the card which venues tick off) in practice they never ever bother so you can use it in most places ad infinitum. Cheers Thom

RE The French - Not been there recently but I think even post refurb it is painfully old-fashioned, competent if uninspiring and expensive. Aside from that I've found the general hotel food terrible - I had a caesar salad which defied belief (chopped iceberg, no anchovies, no croutons etc) That said, the owners have come out in the media recently and claimed that despite the demise of Le Mont and Establishment fine dining is in rude health in Manchester and that they are going all out for a Michelin star. Hmmm... Good luck. Interestingly The French was the last place to have a star in Manchester (city centre) some 34 years ago and I did read somewhere that they got the first ever Michelin star in the UK? Seems unlikely but can anyone more nerdish than me confirm or deny this rumour? Cheers Thom

Add sadly Bapi Juniper is not signed up to Hi-Life either so you will still have to get your hand in your pocket. Cheers Thom

Probably interesting to flag up the Hi-Life diners club at this point. Although practically invisible to those outside the North West Hi-Life has been going for a long, long time (15, 20 years?) and now claim 80,000 members across the North of England. Their model is one of a discount dining club; most of the time participating restaurants offer a 'two for one deal' either on main courses, or occasionally on the whole meal. In theory the restaurant limits the offer to its down-times (midweek lunctimes, Tuesday evenings etc) but in actuality everything excluding Christmas and Valentines day seems fair game. The financials are simple: The members pay around £40-£50 per year for membership (I'm going from memory here so anyone with more time than I is free to offer corrections or clarifications) and the restaurants themselves pay nothing. £45 each means big numbers when you add up the number of members and the probable overheads... Anyway it works thus: Members get cheap meals, which they like. Restaurants get a marketing outlet in that the scheme encourage people to try their restaurant (and makes them aware of it in the first place through their annual restaurant guide). Sure it seems the restaurant takes a hit but actually most restaurant's major costs are fixed - staff, rent, rates, services etc so once you are open of an evening the actual food costs are a relatively small proportion (in the 20-30% bracket?) and serving one chicken breast rather than two shouldn't break the boat. Obviously restaurants would also hope to also recoup some cash by upselling around the diners visit (alcohol, coffees etc) as well as persuading them to return again and to bring their friends with them. Don't get me wrong, some chefs and restaurants refuse to buy into this - either they feel they don't need it (The Individual Restaurant Company for example) or they just don't believe the money side stacks up. That said, over 1,100 restaurants around the region HAVE signed up to it, and if you go to their website you'll find plenty of gems in amongst the Frankie and Bennies (in Manchester this includes Palmiro, River Restaurant, Sapporo Teppanyaki, Harvey Nichols, Marmalade, Thai E-Sarn etc). The whole company has recently been taken over by an Irish operation who, weirdly, did a virtually identical thing discount membership scheme for golfers and golf courses around the world. They have big plans so expect a national Hi-Life roll-out in the near future. You know, in spite of all I have written above I don't actually have a Hi-Life card. Maybe I wouldn't be a member of any club which would have me; maybe I just hate restrictions on my eating; maybe I live with the mortal fear that the many chefs and restaurateurs I know round here would tut and think me cheap as I apologetically slid the card back to them with the bill. Maybe I just have more money than sense. Either way, hopefully that sheds some light on why restaurants sign up to the whole 'Eat for £5/Two for one' schtick; it does seem it works for at least some of them. Ah well, if nothing else at least let me put off my crushing Sunday afternoon workload for another twenty minutes... Cheers Thom