Craig Camp

They do not come close. Bordeaux remains secure.

Count me in on the cru Beaujolais (and Gamay as F. Jim notes) bandwagon. When well made it happens to be one of those beautiful simple pleasures. Bloud and Janodet in Moulin-a-Vent and Piron in Morgon are among my favorites. Sometimes producers like this make wines that can challenge some pinot noir wines in complexity and have the ability to age beautifully. Serious Beaujolais, the Loire (red and white) and Alsace continue to produce wines of great style and value - and are soundly ignored in the United States because of it. At least it keeps the price down.

Cosa Bolle in Pentola Here is a classic recipe from Cosa Bolle that I follow. Don't worry about the 'fish glue', gelatin works just fine. For variations try omiting the caramel and using various fruit toppings. You can also add 3 or 4 tbls. dark rum, espresso or fruit brandy for variations. Try a Moscato d'Asti with it - delicious. The mamster version sounds wonderful - I will try it soon.

In the interest of a good fight, please don't agree. No problem.

Just your words. That's enough. Fresser is the Yiddish word for people with hearty appetites. Let's ratchet this baby up a bit. Do you not agree that French wine is superior to Italian wine? Whew! That's a relief. As far as the wine question do you mean now or twenty years ago as those seem to be the wines you are drinking - you lucky dog. If you mean then, yes. If you mean now, no. The answer now is no because France just can't offer the broad range of quality wine styles offered in Italy. The only French wine Italy can't match Parker point for Parker point is Burgundy and this is no big deal because no one really makes great pinot noir or chardonnay other then Burgundy - nice yes, great no. But to get to the heart of the matter I actually do not believe Italian wines are superior to French wines or vice versa (same for the food). What is the point in arguing that one is superior to the other when it is their differences that make them exciting and make them match certain foods in certain ways. In the past it was no contest, but it is no longer the past and France does not hold the elite position it once held. There are great restaurants all over the globe making food inspired by the local cuisine. World class wines are being made in California, Australia, New Zealand, South American and South Africa. Fine dining and fine wines are no longer under the control of one country but are a truly international phenomena.

Please forgive my ignorance. What are fressers and should I be afraid of lurking ones? Can they read my thoughts? They must be deities as they understand the basic truths of the food universe and can parse good from bad. Where does one go worship them? When will they stop lurking and reveal themselves?

Stuck in Denver for personal reasons that are grave and serious, I wish I could have been in Italy enjoying the meal you describe. Sounds wonderful and the desserts sound amazing. Can you share more about them please? Nothing like inspired simple home cooking for me. It is that which I miss in Denver. Hey Suvir, thanks for dropping by the Italy forum. I owe you a visit!

You Italophiles personalize these things so. Why is it an attack? It's just an analysis of the cuisine. Why about that would be an attack? Why isn't it just a fair analysis? And why is my analysis wrong? Where is the evidence to disprove it? I would question your analysis because you seem to be outnumbered 6300 to 1 on this topic among eGullet members. It could be more now but that was the number of members a minute ago. No one is making this argument from the same position that you hold. I would describe your attitude as an attack because in seems more of an attempt to prove the superiority of French cuisine, which you love, to Italian cuisine, which you don't love, than it is an attempt to really analyze the food of Italy. Your outright rejection of pasta as anything 'interesting' is proof that you do not have an open mind on this subject.

Always glad to help but my fingers are getting tired and I am getting a little paranoid.

Steve I don't need an eyetest. I am referring to your persistent and overall attack on Italian cuisine as anything beyond glorified home cooking. Do not confuse the issue by trying to limit the discussion to your last post as you have made hundreds (maybe thousands) on just this topic.

I think you are the only one saying it is not on the way up. This is like waking a sleeping giant. No other country has the range of high quality raw materials - both food and wine. The example of France is of course an inspiration, as well it should be. What the French have accomplished in the kitchen can only be awarded the highest respect.

The prosciutto on the autoroute is very interesting by the international standards of expressway cuisine. I believe that it is you that said the cuisine of France is in the doldrums. Italy is just starting to express itself. I would rather be on the way up than on the way down. Vedat must be very uncomfortable with you looking over his shoulder. Give him some space.

Are you sure that's what you feel? Perhaps you are missing something. So many disagree with you there may be something there to consider. It is possible that there is something in this type of cuisine that that you just can't feel?

Why? It is always interesting to someone who has never had it. It is also interesting if you have had it 1000 times and this is the best one you ever tasted.

How often does Peter Luger's have a 'good day'. Are you more likely to hit a bad or good day? You can add my vote for chianina beef as the best tasting. Here is some more information and some links. Il Forteto Chianina beef Epicurious.com www.rollerfirenze.orgHere's what they look like

Bulls eye. This is what ultimatly produces great winemakeing everywhere. It is only the name of the producer that gives any sort of quality guarantee. This ability to charge higher prices was the gift of Angelo Gaja to Piemonte and these higher prices inspired others to reach for higher quality. It is worth noting that Gaja no longer uses DOC or DOCG.

Beaujolais, Shedding the New for the Old from the New York Times

Why does wine cost what it does? free registration is required on the NYT site

... What is your comment?

Cured meats are all 'raw' if by that you mean uncooked. All these recipes approach the same thing. A long, slow low heat (simmer) cooking to blend the flavors. It tastes better and richer prepared in this way.

Of course they offer SOME degree of consumer protection. However, simply keeping Moroccan wine out of Barolo and Bordeaux hardly stands as a very high standard of consumer protection. It seems a shame to place the blame on the backs (or in this case tongues) of consumers. I would think the point of AOC and DOC is to protect those people who are not experts. The experts can defend themselves. Fine wine and food should not only be reserved for those who 'know' the difference. Only by experiencing better food and wine will people stop accepting "crap food on their plate without complaining about it."

The importer can be a good indicator of quality - but of course that means you have to learn who the good importers are. A great importer like Neil Empson or Marc de Grazia treats their portfolio like a sommelier treats a wine list. They are trying to select the best wines possible from the important wine regions, but they also seek great values as this is important to creating an economically successful portfolio. They need to have a balanced portfolio to stay in business - not just famous tiny estates, but a few wines at low prices that people can drink everyday. Just like a sommelier selecting a fine house wine.

from ItalianMade.comAs I mentioned before cotechino and zampone are prepared from cured meat. They are not raw. The cooking process only intregrates the flavors through warming just befoe serving and as Wilfrid mentions creates a great cooking broth for your lentils. They just taste better warm. You heat them under low heat so the shape is mantained so it takes longer - 45 minutes or so - to heat through.

IGT is another whole bag of worms. The requirements are so broad as to take in almost anything. I will expand on IGT and Vino da Tavola in an upcoming Daily Gullet. It is not a question of enforcement. Producers follow the laws- its not that tough. To refer back to the Argento Barolo it is made under exactly the same guidelines as Monfortino. The difference is that great producers grow a lot less grapes than the DOCG allows. If you produce at levels allowed by the DOCG you can't make a great wine. Most Italians only drink local wines produced by cooperatives - just like the French, Spanish and Portuguese. Its not that they don't care - its that wine is such a normal part of the daily culture they don't give it much thought. All the great wines of Europe - Bordeaux, Burgundy, Champagne, Rheingau, Barolo and so on have been driven by the demands of an export market. Over 80% of Barolo is exported. Bordeaux would go bust living on the French market.

Excuse me - Argento Barolo.