Craig Camp

I certainly admire their stated goal of making a 'food wine' style, but would argue they did not actually attain it. Food wine does not equate with boring wine, which is what many of the Mondavi Napa wines have become. There are California wineries like Iron Horse that make a balanced style of wines that match well with food, but are still complex and interesting. Mondavi failed at this. However the financial problems of the Mondavi winery do not come from their Napa Valley wines which are a small percentage of their total sales, but from dropping sales of their huge Woodbridge brand and the mixed results of their many joint ventures - none of which make anything but dull wines except Arrowood. Opus One is widely considered the most overrated wine in California and Luce has claimed that honor in Italy. A once proud name has become associated with mediocrity. What is exciting about anything the Mondavi name is connected to today?

Cotechino is a traditional holiday dish in northern Italy and originates from Emilia Romagna. Is it the choice for New Year's Eve where it is served with the lentils as you mention. The lentil represent financial good fortune in the New Year and the more you eat the more money you are supposed to make. The Cotechino is fully cooked already so just defrost it and simmer until heated through. Then the traditional meal is to just served it sliced over the lentils. Very tasty!

After 70 posts on a thread we are officially in a free-association mode. What do you see in this ink blot? The 75's were always disappointing. Just too hard and not enough fruit to back it up. Can't you make the same arguments we were making about food to wine? Is a great Montepulciano like Oasi degli Angeli Kurni as 'interesting' as a Altare Barolo or is this like comparing fine trattoria cooking with a top Michelin Italian restaurant? Is that an interesting question (and a oh so subtle attempt to get back on topic).

The Conterno is a baby compared to those guys - needs another 10 years. The Roumier is a dream. The 1970 vintage of Bordeaux was the vintage I first started to collect in the late 70's - unfortunately I did not display the proper restraint and have few bottles left now. I had the 70 Latour the last time about 5 years ago along with the 79 Latour, at the time the 70 tasted 10 years younger than the 79 - I love those 70's - arguably the last great Bordeaux vintage made in the classic style.

Straight Barb - I bought a case in 82 for $12.00 a bottle. There is not a better $12 wine on the planet. It is drinking beautifully right now.

Actually I think I know what you mean too, but I am happy to live with my definitions. Believe me I admire the restaurants and chefs that you refer to as standards. I am in for the pleasure wherever I can find it. By the way I had a 1978 Gaja Barbaresco yesterday - sublime.

Wrong, wrong, wrong! I find them all interesting at different times in different situations. My argument is that each at their peak have the potential to be equally pleasurable. I want to argue that dining well is an emotional experience not an academic one.

I will confess my prejudice. After twenty five years of 'fine dining' I find it less and less interesting in the sense it becomes harder and harder to be impressed and the experience becomes more and more stuffy, self-important and stylized. However, as I have become more and more dedicated to my own cooking, I find what Steve refers to as 'home style cooking' more and more fascinating. To find a chef that can elevate a dish that has been done a million times is an unbelievable thrill to me. This constant flagellation of semantics and definitions seems to ignore how the food actually tastes. Where is the passion and the art? Why is it not possible to experience with the same joy and pleasure home cooking, trattoria cooking and 3 star Michelin dining. Certainly price is an issue and the 3 Star has the potential to be an incredibly bad value, but when talking about the pure mental and physical pleasure of eating don't they all have the ability to reach emotional peaks?

Now I understand. You have attained pure objectivity. So the rest of us are subjective but you are objective. OK I got it now. Subjectively speaking I find rustic food interesting. Better?

Gee, how can anybody argue with that. Just as a small point you are the one making the argument that trattoria cooking is only 'home style cooking' and it is your point that I quote "you can have interesting home style cooking". Apparently my argument is not interesting enough because now you are debating with yourself. Aha!

Sounds like some sort of private club. Is it anything like the Mason's? Do they have cool hats? Good we've narrowed the debate down. If you can have 'interesting home style cooking' and trattoria cooking is, as described by you, 'home style cooking', then why can't trattoria cooking be interesting? That is my Peter's point, Robert's point and mine. Rustic food (home style cooking by your own definition) is interesting.

I am interested in an answer to this interesting point.

Interesting point. I absolutely agree with you on Babbo and Lupa. It is the pushing for excellence that makes food interesting. A restaurant like Valentino is not interesting because it believes it has reached excellence and stops pushing. My point would be that there are chefs reaching for excellence at all three levels of Italian restaurants I listed above. As they all have the potential to 'push the envelope' they are all potentially 'interesting'. I would also argue that you can 'push the envelope' within the traditions of your own cuisine. As such, the penne con pecorino that you mention has the potential to be as interesting (or not interesting) as the coffee pasta with sea urchin mentioned by vmilor. This is all very interesting and I hope that you are interested in continuing this discussion.

That's an interesting take on interesting. When a chef finds or makes fantastic artisan penne with a unique texture and a nuanced nutty flavor that teases your palate to find a description and tops that with a small farm producer Pecorino that has flavors that literally sing - Not only do I find that interesting I am very interested in eating it. I takes a great chef to realize when to stop adding ingredients and layering on more technique just because he or she has them. This ability to see when simplicity is the highest honor you can pay to the food is a talent and discipline held by few. Simplicity does not equal naive. Please afford those chefs who are talented enough enough to cook creatively and with restraint and a respect for their own cuisine the honor of having a language that adequately describes their accomplishment.

Yes it is. It interests me. Please give me the address!

Mondavi Aftermath: Tim Mondavi on 'personal leave,' GM Clay Gregory fired

Steve and Peter, I propose pistols at dawn on the border of France and Italy. Robert and I will be your seconds.

Deja Vu. I have a strange sense I have been trapped in this thread before. Anyway, I see three important types of Italian restaurants: 1. Wonderful, rustic places making an excellent version of home cooking. I love these places and go as often as I can. Peter's La Selvaggio sounds like a top version of this kind of restaurant and I would be happy to eat there anytime. 2. The new wave of 'Osteria' and 'Trattoria' as showcased in the Slow Food Osterie guide. The food at these restaurants is not glorified home cooking, but creative cooking featuring local ingredients prepared at a very high level of technique. Usually run by chef/owners these are very personal places and are not rustic but have a unique warmth. These are usually my favorite restaurants in Italy as you eat a distinctly Italian cuisine that is prepared with elevated technique and creativity. These restaurants are improved, not diluted by an international perspective and experiences. The Osteria dell’Arancio in Grottammare I described above would be a perfect example of this type. 3. The fine dining scene which has been well described above by vmilor both in his reviews and in his insightful analysis of that scene in Italy today.vimilor Best restaurants in Northern Italy I would agree with him that this area is heavily influenced by France - and why not, so are restaurants in the rest of the world. However, I do not find that the well deserved respect that is given to the cuisine of France somehow has to demean the cuisine of other cultures. These 'high cuisine' restaurants are often spectacular and is growing and improving as a category in Italy. There is a lot of energy at this level and there is no doubt it is of international inspiration - sometimes to a fault in my opinion. Unfortunately at this level there are a lot of expensive disappointments like Steve's visit to Aimo & Nadia. Steve's review of Aimo e Nadia On the other hand there are many incredible places proudly flashing their Michelin stars like Peter's Croce Bianca in Cessina Torinese and one of my favorite La Peca in Veneto who are making exciting and energetic interpretations of Italian cuisine. It is because Italy if full of restaurants on all three level that it is such an interesting place to eat. Where else can you get three distinct interpretations of the same cuisine - all prepared with a very high level of skill and using such spectacular ingredients? What more could a food junkie want? I will admit a deep love of cuisine that some would claim to be rustic. I like to feel like I am touching the culture I am in when I look at my plate. I do not want to have to check what language is being spoken to know where I am eating.

Why do you think this is? (I'm not disagreeing.) Is it because of ingredients, or atmospherics? I would think that in places like NY and LA, the top restaurants could import whatever is needed. Many reasons: The types of fish are different here. In addition because of Italian geography the fish is very fresh everywhere by American standards and spectacularly fresh in areas right on the coast. The meat is different - the animals feed on different things and are processed differently. Affettati, the whole family of cured meats: prosciutto salami etc. - these just are not generally in the USA because often they cannot be imported legally and when they are they taste differently. Prosciutto crudo melts in your mouth in Italy and here it is saltier and dryer in texture because of the longer curing required to meet American health codes. These products are a fundamental part of Italian dining. Dried pasta - According to US law pasta has to be an "enriched macaroni product" in other words they require certain vitamins to be added to pasta in minimum amounts. This changes the cooking and texture characteristics of the pasta as it make a 'harder' dried pasta. The customers are very different. The list goes on and on........

Click on the link below for a discussion about restaurant guides - Italian restaurant guide thread Also I would suggest for someone headed to Rome who is not familiar with Roman cuisine to read Cooking the Roman Way by David Downie. It is a cookbook not a guide - but it will introduce you to the special aspects of Roman food.

You are right about the Wine Spectator, they give more weight to the wine list than the food - as they should.

Now you're on my subject (and I swore to myself that I wouldn't get into this again). You are saying exactly what I have said for years. Yes, there is fine dining, there is even fine Italian dining but for Real Italian dining you really must go to Italy. Welcome back from the slopes Peter. I like the Real Italian Dining® - you may have a brand there get your trademark application in I would agree you have to go to Italy for Real Italian Dining®, but what I think we are looking for are the restaurants that take that concept and execute it to the highest level.

Again I would eliminate the Italian American restaurants as that is a category in itself. I am referring to restaurants who have a kitchen inspired by the highest concepts of Italian restaurant cooking - then take that inspiration and apply it to the finest fresh ingredients available in their own market. I had an excellent meal at Felidia about six months ago.

The Wine Spectator story was about LA in general, not a listing of top Italian restaurants there or in the USA. In that story they referred to Valentino as mentioned. I suppose you have to divide Italian restaurants in the USA into several categories: 1. Italian American - Like Carmine's in Chicago 2. Authentic - Like Babbo in NYC 3. Fine dining - Like Valentino in LA. In a best Italian context I would have to eliminate the Italian-American places, but I see no problem in comparing Babbo vs. Spiaggia because we are talking about the quality of the food not the ambiance.

The wines are easy. The cheeses are hard. I would think our members in the UK have a better selection then the USA and that they are also in better condition. Why not pick the cheeses first then select a range of wines. All the wines are available in both places.