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In light of recent posts, I'd better write this up just in case tonight's dinner kills me! To start with - given the international conspiracy to call all meat parts by different names I have no idea what I cooked and ate tonight in terms familiar to the majority of the forum readers. Regrettably I took no photographs so the best I can do is try to describe the cut as it was when bought from the butcher: I cooked what I may call 'beef short ribs", but given some descriptions I'm not sure we're all talking about the same bit of cow/steer. Assuming that the strips of meat were sitting on their rib side they were about 12 inches long, 2 inches wide and a varying amount high (from about 1" to 2.5"). They were cut across the ribs and there was about 7 or 8 bone pieces per chunk of meat. (Note deference to US folk who can't yet understand metric measures which we moved to about 40 years ago!) Hope that makes some sense - if it does can somebody tell me what that is called in USA terms? (Many of my cookbooks call for things I can't even find definitive descriptions for on the net!) I cut each of the pieces into 2 (between the bones) bagged and vacuumed them separately after tossing them around in a bowl with EVOO, sea salt (maybe the same as Kosher salt - but here in Australia we have very few Rabbis to prove it!) and black pepper. Next was to put them into the Tiger/SVM contraption at 56C and leave them there for 48 hours. I have cooked this cut of meat before and the only way to make it good (despite it's good flavour) is to braise it with lots of other ingredients for several hours. Having no idea what to do with potentially tender rib meat I decided to do nothing complex so that I could taste the outcome of the first experiment. I baked some potatoes, onions and pumpkin in large chunks for about 1 hour at 180C (350F). When the vegetables were nearly done - I removed the ribs from the bath and seared them with a blow torch. I then added them to the roasting pan and turned on the fan-force and roasted them with the vegetables for about 5 minutes. Net result - amazing! The flavour was similar to the complex taste you only normally get from a tough cut of meat, but the texture was about as good as a rib-eye or fillet steak! SWMBO was impressed! (For those who've never seen "Rumpole of the Bailey", SWMBO means: "She Who Must Be Obeyed"). BTW - SWMBO takes some impressing - I already have an order to do this again - even though I've not begun to attempt any elaborate recipes based on the technique. Now I'm after hints as to how to "dress-up" such a dish.... Cheers, PB

Hi Michael, I am confused as to your advice here - specifically the food safety aspect. In Douglas Baldwin's excellent article: Douglas Baldwin - A Practical Guide to Sous Vide Cooking He recommends cooking Flat Iron steak at 131F (55C) for 24 hours. Both he and Nathan have stated many times that the requirement to cook meat at >60C is a myth and that the pathogens which could harm us are either neutralised or sufficiently reduced to no longer be a threat when the meat is cooked for an extended period. If I understand it correctly - cooking meat at "dangerously low" temperatures is OK for up to 4 hours, but when going over 4 hours it needs to be by a wide margin (eg 24 hours). My further understanding is that this is OK for immediate consumption but extra precautions need to be taken for SV & Hold use. I have some beef short ribs in the tank at 56C at the moment and by dinner time tonight they will have been in there for 48 hours. Are you suggesting I am doing something dangerous? Is all of the low temp / long time advice on this forum incorrect? I need to know before I feed the family tonight. Maybe Nathan or Douglas could comment. Regards, Peter.

Hi Bob, have a look at this post: http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?showto...dpost&p=1623915 Not fully comprehensive, but a pretty good start. I would like to see it enhanced so that the wide variances in temp are explained. Lobster may well be good @ 45C, but on the same page it quotes another suggestion that it is also good @ 55C - a massive variation. To be fair Camano Chef was only documenting what is contained in this forum, and in the reference books available to him. Note to Nathan: if it doesn't already, your book should have an updated / more comprehensive version of a table like this. I was going to buy your book anyhow, but I'm sure many would find such a reference invaluable. Cheers, Peter.

I have 2 Paul Prudhomme books. The first is a marketing adjunct to his "Magic" line: "Chef Paul Prudnomme's Pure Magic". No recipe in this book doesn't use his product. The other one: "Chef Paul Prudhommes's Fiery Foods That I Love" on the other hand has none of his products at all and each recipe has a total ingredient list. In Australia we used to be able to buy the "magic" line of products from Essential Ingredient. Don't know if they still stock it - I haven't used any for a long time. Not sure why - maybe I just forgot about it. In general the result was pretty good and even healthy as very little oil/fat is needed to get a result. Cheers, Peter.

Sounds very nice! I've got jalapenos to spare at the moment. I only have one plant but it's producing more than I can eat. How long did you cook it for and how big were the shrimps? Peter.

The benches in my kitchen are all stainless steel so I don't have much of a problem in that regard. I flamed the cutlets on the stainless steel plate in the photo. I guess if you had bench tops which would be damaged you could use a similar stainless plate and put it on top of your stove - unless of course you have one of those glass topped units - then you're out of luck. Thanks for the microwave tip, I'll give it a shot next time, cheers, Peter.

Pork Cutlet Success! With a relatively short lead time I decided to try some Pork Cutlets last night. I bagged the cutlets individually with some sea salt and black pepper and cooked them @ 55C (131F) for 1 hour and 50 minutes. After taking them from the bags they looked a little insipid. I charred the top and sides with a blow-torch and plated them. I served them with some steamed new potatoes and carrots and a tapanade I'd made for some other purpose earlier in the week. The texture was tender without being mushy and the flavour was definitely more delicate than this cut of meat usually is. Interestingly when cut no juices came out of the meat - even though it was not over done. All in all a success. One question for those with more experience: How do I make the product hotter without cooking it? After searing and plating the overall effect was probably a little cold to my taste. Cheers, Peter.

Just to give you an idea - the old edition I have (I think the one currently in print has been revised) has: 96 Pages on India & Pakistan 52 Pages on Sri Lanka 52 Pages on Indonesia 20 Pages on Malaysia 24 Pages on Singapore 29 Pages on Burma (Maybe Myanmar in the new edition?) 29 Pages on Thailand 10 Pages on Cambodia & Laos 16 Pages on Vietnam 20 Pages on The Philippines 69 Pages on China 19 Pages on Korea 29 Pages on Japan. The Korean section has about 35 Recipes only one of which is KimChi. Hope this is useful. Peter.

I'm new to eGullet and only just found this thread. I can add 738 to the total! Latest 3 are all on Sous Vide: Under Pressure - Thomas Keller Sous-vide - Viktor Stampfer Sous Vide Cuisine - Joan Roca & Salvador Brugues. Cheers, Peter.

I have been using this book as a reference for years: The Complete Asian Cookbook - Charmaine Solomon Charmaine Solomon The book has been in print since 1976 and covers most Asian countries. It has an excellent glossary which gives the many different names for the same ingredient. If for instance you had a Thai recipe calling for "yira", or a Malaysian recipe calling for "jintan puteh" or a SriLankan recipe asking for "sududuru" - in the glossary you can find that all of these ingredients are in fact Cumin in English. Apart from the glossary which I used often when I was unfamiliar with ingredients, I've cooked dozens of recipes from the book and they are all excellent. It is a great book for those who are not familiar with Asian ingredients or method. Hope this helps. Peter.

You are correct with respect to the "P" parameter - it matters to a degree. The "I" and "D" parameters relate to time so they matter for a while..... java script:add_smilie(%22:wink:%22)

More experiment results: I firstly tried increasing the power to 100% (leaving the P=200, I=0, D=0) and the result was about a 30% decrease in the time to come up to temperature, but also about an overrun of the same magnitude. Probably should have been expected. As the temp stayed between 0.5C and 0.75C over the target for a while I aborted that trial as the 75% power setting got me much closer to the target consistently. Next I tried going back to 75% power and setting D to 40 - I put the same plastic bottle of ice into the cooker at the same time (1:15). Not a big difference. The astute will see that my starting temps were not the same so I'm not certain that that fact didn't have an impact. I'm giving up manual temp tracking for now. Apparently my USB data logger is only about 2 weeks away. Then I can remove any "stupid human" errors and keep the test running for longer. Cheers, Peter.

See my comments in red below:

When I was researching my purchase Frank Hsu from SVM recommended the 1500C over the 1500B. It has a newer type of thermocouple which is more accurate at typical Sous Vide temps. Even though 1500C only displays whole degrees as opposed to the 1500B which displays 10ths, he said that with less error from the sensor overall you get a more stable result. I was surprised that he was recommending a cheaper alternative. Unusual for a company to "down sell". Also the 1500B model is Centigrade ONLY - the display is not wide enough to enable Fahrenheit. Regards, Peter.

More information: After the Auto-tune experiment I tried nickrey's settings (P=100, I=60, D=80, Power 75%). The overrun was similar or worse than the default settings (P=100, I=700, D=40, Power 100%). I aborted that try, as it clearly didn't fix my large overrun problem. Next I doubled the P setting to 200 (P=200, I=60, D=80, Power 75%) and the result was better, but the overrun was still too high. The last experiment for today was to eliminate the I and D settings (P=200, I=0, D=0, Power=75%). While it took 20 minutes for the target temperature to be reached, once there it was very stable within a few 10ths of a degree. Buoyed by this new stability I got an ice brick from the freezer and put it into the cooker at the 75 minute mark. The ice brick weighs 475g and the cooker was filled with 9 litres of water - that equates to the ice brick being only 5.3% of the total mass in the cooker. After 5 minutes the temp had dropped 2.5C and stayed between there and a further 0.5C lower for 15 minutes. It then took a further 13 minutes to recover to the target of 54C. I don't know if this is expected, but when time permits I'll repeat the same experiment with the "D" setting increased to see if the time spent hovering around a lower temp can be overcome. More info as it comes to hand. Cheers, Peter.

OK - here is what it looked like with the Autotune settings: This would be a good result if only the set temp had been 57C and not 54C. Next experiment I'll try Nickrey's settings. Only thing on my mind is that my cooker is twice the size and has more wattage so the settings may not be appropriate. I guess another alternative could be to re-calibrate the SVM with a 3 degree offset and keep the autotune settings, although those spikes don't look good. One thing I observed is that the insulation is very effective - I turned it off last night when the temp was 56.8C, and 6.5 hours later when I got up this morning the temp was still 43C even though the ambient temp was 17C. Cheers, Peter.

The autotune of the SVM finished just now - 11.5 hours after starting. It came up with: P=19, I=998 and D=499. Intuitively that sounds wrong. If I get a chance tomorrow I'll give it a go to see what happens. Cheers, PB

As per e-monster's suggestion my machine is now autotuning. As suggested I have nothing to lose. It's been going for about 5 hours so far and I'll let it run until it stops. I'll provide more information as it comes to hand. If the autotune doesn't give me better results my next attempt will be 50% power. There doesn't seem to be any problem with the unit heating up - even from room temperature it is quite quick, the main problem seems to be the latent heat in the unit after the element has been turned off, coupled with good insulation so that the heat doesn't go out of the unit quickly. After that increasing the "P" value will be my next step. Peter.

Given the "odd" outcome I wondered if anything was not right with my last experiment, so I ran a smaller one tonight. Here are the results: The only difference was that in experiment 1 I had attached the 2 temp sensors (one for the SVM and one for my thermometer) to a wire cake rack with rubber bands to keep them low in the water but off the surface. Maybe the cake rack itself gained temperature from the metal container of the rice cooker - who knows? In test 2 I used a weight to hold the wires of the sensors down but did not let it touch the sensors themselves. The only other difference I can identify was that the ambient temp was 2C lower than the last attempt. The difference is substantial - and a big improvement without changing any parameters. When I get time I will play with settings to see what difference they make. PB

Oh dear. The more I read the more I know for sure that I don't know! I'm wondering if I am being over cautious or am I correct in attempting to get the tuning of my SVM PID stable before cooking anything for a long time? With a few hours to kill yesterday and still waiting for the data logger to arrive I filled the 12litre Tiger to about 9 litres - which is about 6cm or 2.5 inches below the top allowing for the addition of some food with a margin for error. (BTW anyone who says the Tiger JNO-(A/B)360 is 12l is correct, but you couldn't fill it with 12 litres of water and put any food in it as well). The water was from the hot tap and was about 60C when added to the Tiger. I allowed the Tiger to stabilise for about 45 minutes so that any error from the "cold" Tiger and the hot water would be minimalised. When I powered up the SVM and Tiger the starting temp of the water was 49.6C. From that point I kept the lid closed through the whole sampling process. My intention was to wait until the temp stabilised and then to add a fake food load and watch the impact. Unfortunately I didn't get to that part of the experiment as getting to the target went beyond my bed time ;-) After power-up I became a human data logger recording the temp from a thermocouple thermometer (not the SVM readout) every minute for the next 3 hours. (Memo to self: wait for data logger to arrive before attempting this experiment again!). After 3 hours I needed to get dinner happening so I set the kitchen timer for 5 minutes and recorded 5 minute intervals for the next 5 hours. See Chart: What I found that disturbs me was the massive initial overrun and the fact that the target temp was not achieved until about 7.5 hours after starting the experiment. Also I cannot explain the oscillation between 58C and 56C before the temp finally reduced to near the target of 54C. When I get some more time I'm going to try reducing the power to 50% as the Tiger is 1610W in it's 240V model. I was going to cook some beef short ribs for 48 hours. Should I wait until I've stabilised the SVM or is it pretty safe to just give it a go? Thanks, Peter.

Thanks for your advice Bob. BTW if this should be on the other thread about "Sous Vide Controller Accuracy" somebody let me know - I'm not sure of the subtlety of the rules yet. For the first time in many years I now wish I'd listened more carefully in high school physics. I decided to "understand" the workings of a PID controller before moving forward and have managed to confuse myself. When checking on Wikipedia for information I read that increasing the "P" value will increase overshoot! Clearly this is at odds with your advice, Frank Hsu's advice and some help I've had from Nickrey. Maybe it's a "scientific definition" versus an "implementation definition" problem complicated by my lack of understanding at this point. I guess the quickest way to resolve the issue is experimentation. Unfortunately the data-logger I've ordered is out of stock in Australia until mid May so the tool which would take the subjectivity out of any experiment is not available to me for a few weeks. (BTW Bob the logger I've ordered is USB - I don't have any serial port equipped computers any more either. It can keep 32,000 observations - it uses a K type thermocouple). What I understand about the behaviour of the SVM is that increasing the "P" value widens the temperature range in which less-than-full power is applied. So setting "P" to 100 means that at less than 10C below the target (T) the unit will give full power and between Tminus10 and T the amount of power applied will be proportionately less. If I made the "P" value (say) 200 the full power would be attenuated at Tminus20 and proportionately decreased to zero at the target (T). My assumption is that starting the temp reduction earlier would have 2 outcomes: 1. Time to reach target would be longer 2. Overrun would be less. Maybe the scientists among us can fill me in - I'm guessing that because the SVM/RiceCooker is only applying heat (or not) the whole PID theory doesn't apply. We are only heating or not - we are not cooling to counteract overrun unlike other systems which I imagine can use PID controllers to correct in both directions. I am determined to get to a reasonable understanding of this - and when I do I will post it in simple terms - or at least in terms which I can understand. Cheers, Peter. PS - Next SV experiment is beef short ribs done for 48 hours - not sure if they are the same as what is called beef short ribs in the US - our butchers don't only cut things up differently but call the resulting products by different names too. As if it wasn't confusing enough! PB

Report on meal #1 using SV with Tiger rice cooker and SVM PID Controller. When I went to the freezer I found that I had veal cutlets instead of the rib-eye steaks that I thought were there - oh well.. keep going anyhow. My observations are as follows: The temp overrun is relatively short lived, although I will experiment with the PID settings to attempt to fix it. I set the temperature to 54C. When it came to the target temperature I put the room temperature packages (about 20C) into the water. The temp dropped a couple of degrees then overshot to about 57C before stabilising at 54C after 35 minutes. The temp then remained at 54C consistently until I removed the packages from the water after a total time of 90 minutes. I then seared the cutlets on a very hot cast-iron pan briefly. The result was a more tender piece of meat than I've been used to and a slightly different flavour - I guess due to the less Mailiard effect as a result of the shorter time on the high heat. At the same time I put some ripe tomatoes in a bag with a couple of sprigs of fresh thyme from the garden and some S&P along with some EVOO. They were vacuumed to 90%. I would not do it that way again - they needed to be weighed down with a cake rack to keep them submerged. I need to figure out how much vacuum will work to remove more air without squashing the tomatoes. They were very good, but there was no noticeable addition of flavour from the thyme or the EVOO. As to e_monster's suggestion re tuning the PID - I did get a return email from Frank @ SVM, but have yet to try his advice. I'll report back once I've had time to test it and check the results. PS If I knew how to post photographic evidence on this forum I would do so. Cheers, PB

Thanks for the suggestions. The SVM arrived this morning, and I'm trying to calibrate it for the Tiger (Thanks for your assistance nickrey). At the moment it overshoots by 3.5C which is a bit much for accuracy. In the last hour it has come back down to it's set temp and so far seems to be holding fairly stable. Perhaps opening the lid when it comes up to temp will be one way of counteracting the overshoot faster. Impatience will get the better of me for sure and the Rib-Eye steaks in the freezer are going to be tonight's meal - calibration fixed or not. In any case if I'm only SVing them until the internal temp comes up to target I figure I won't have well done steaks. The souvlaki suggestion from howsmatt sounds great too - I will give that a go when I have a piece of lamb. Cheers, Peter.

What should my first SV meal be? This is my first post. I've got a chamber vacuum machine (Henkelman - previously only used for packaging for the freezer). A commercial rice-cooker (Tiger) and I'm waiting for my Sous Vide Magic PID controller to get from Toronto to Sydney - hopefully it'll be here later this week. I've spent the last several days reading this entire thread and have learned heaps. Now I'm raring to go! If I am going to impress the sox off the good lady of the house what should I try first? I've made Tetsuya's Confit of Ocean Trout in the oven under oil @60C and that was a great success (According to one friend it was as good as the original, but I still think that Tets does it better). That got me thinking of fish for the first SV meal - or should I get a normally tough cut of meat and tenderise that over a long time - or should I just try a steak? What do those more experienced SV users recommend? Thanks in advance, Peter.