KennethT

I know that you can veal neck bones from Fresh Direct for like $2 per pound... I keep saying that I need to go to Ottomanelli to see what they charge, but haven't made it there... I'm not a regular there, but they know me by face... I'll be curious to hear what you found...

I was experimenting with vegetables at 185 F. for an hour. On some, I felt the package until there was give. I think the carrots went 90 min. I did potatoes, carrots, broccoli, and whole mushrooms. Frankly, I was not impressed with the results. EXCEPT for the mushrooms. They came out rich flavored and great. A lot of potential for various finishing techniques - or none. The potatoes were cut in a 1/4" dice and tasted good, but compared to what versatility you can get with potato preparations, no big deal. Carrots were done, but not impressive. Broccoli yuch. I am very willing to hear results from others that might give more interesting veggies. Stu ← I experimented with asparagus last night... I got really nice thick ones that I peeled, seasoned then in the bag with a couple pats of butter... Into the bath at 150F (65.6C) for about 8 minutes (as per instructions from discussions MUCH earlier in this thread).. then shocked in ice water and kept refrigerated until ready to serve... reheated in 128F (53.3C) bath used for cooking lamb... The results - my wife loved them... I also enjoyed them... they had the texture of being "cooked" but still had a crispness to them... if you like your asaparagus on the soft side, this may not be the way to go... they also had a really fresh taste - more so than with asparagus that I do normally...

Bringing this topic back up - I have a question that was never asked/answered - and I can't find it in McGee either... once the fish has been cured, how long will it last in the refrigerator? Thanks!

Every once in a while I'll do an orzo dish in the vain as yours, Chris... I sautee asparagus and artichokes separately... Then I'll make a simple sauce of olive oil, chili flakes, brunoise preserved lemon (preserved only in salt), lots of rough chopped garlic that has been browned in the oil, sliced shallots, capers (if I feel like it)... hit it with some white wine for acidity and a little lemon juice... At the very end, I'll sometimes throw in some mint chiffonade - goes great with the chilis!!

My understanding of botulism was similar - that you need a long time in a zero oxygen enviroment for it to grow and produce toxins... the FDA shows in the food code how long you can keep pasteurized ROP products at different temperatures.... From what I understand, if you do cook-chill, you can keep stuff at refrigerator temps (34F) or lower for a max. of 30 days (according to 3-502-12D(2)(e)(i)) So, theoretically, you can cook your burger to 55C for a time long enough to pasteurize depending on thickness, and then chill them down and refrigerate for a month - then just take out and sear on the grill to bring back to temp whenever you're ready... If you want to cook at lower temp. (for a really rare burger), I don't see why you couldn't do it, just so long as your burger wasn't 4" thick so that it would sit in the danger zone for too long.... then eat right away - can't store in the refrig. since it's not pasteurized.... Am I reading this correctly? Someone please correct me if I'm misunderstanding this....

I've actually been thinking about doing something similar, along the lines of the SV burgers.... someone PLEASE let me know if this is a little crazy, or just not practical... Anyway, I've been thinking about doing a bolognese sauce and, separately, meatballs by SV at say 55 or 60C for long time (i.e. 24 hours, ,etc)... or what about either 67 or 83C for 8 hours or so?? I gather that a really good bolognese needs to simmer for a long time to get a really great mouthfeel.. so I figured why not do the same thing you'd do with tenderizing a chuck steak, but to ground meat? Similarly with meatballs - I've had way too many meatballs made the conventional way where the meat was gray and really tight... either from simmering too hard, or not long enough... I figured, even if the connective tissue int eh meat is ground up, it's still there... if you cook it long enough to convert it to gelatin, wouldn't that make a melt-in-your-mouth product??? Any thoughts???

Fascinating!!! What cut of meat did you use for the mince?

If you're bringing things up to temperature in a water bath, then you can use the tables that nathanm supplied somewhere around page 7 of this thread, or use Douglas Baldwin's charts on his website... that will give you the proper times to get up to temp... Once you're at temp and you want to keep it there, I can't think of a reason the incubator couldn't be used.... One way to monitor internal temperature is using a hypodermic or needle probe attached to an external thermometer. Put a square of closed cell foam weatherstripping tape on the outside of your bag where you want to insert the probe. Insert the probe through the tape, bag and into the center of where you want to measure... the tape will keep the bag from losing its vacuum. Then leave the probe in as it comes up to temp.. I believe you'll have to leave the probe in until your cooking is finished becasue I believe that once you remove the probe, you'll lose yoru vacuum.. but I'm not sure about that... others here will know better... The FDA considers the interior of whole intact beef muscle (like a prime rib roast) to be sterile and free from pathogens... So, if you blow torch the exterior sufficiently to kill all surface pathogens, you are safe to hold it at lower temperatures for longer periods of time...

I'm a little concerned about your setup... not to say that it can't hold a consistent temperature - but that's the least of the concerns... Heat transfer in circulated water is 100X better than in still air.... Still air is a really bad conductor of heat - so while it may be a rock solid 130 degrees in the chamber, that heat is not getting into your meat very efficiently. I think the true way to test how well your setup works is to get a hypodermic probe thermocouple and insert it into the center of the meat with some weatherstripping closed cell foam tape...run the thermocouple to an external thermometer and watch the temperature of the center of the meat as you start from cold... You want to make sure it doesn't take more than 4 hours or so (that's the upper limit of time) to get from cold to target temperature, or at least out of the danger zone.. this time will vary with the thickness of your package/if there are bones, etc. - so you should do this a few times with varied items to make sure your setup is safe...

The other day, my wife saw a van parked in our neighborhood... when she inquired, they gave her their card - it was "Mike & Son sharpening service"... it seems like they sharpen knives, scissors, or whatever needs sharpening... I gather you can call them, they come to your apartment, and then they sharpen your knives in their van while you wait. In the van it seems like they have all kinds of motorized sharpening equipment and tools... Has anyone heard of/used these guys? What were your thoughts?? I'm a little scared of letting someone unknown sharpen my babies... and while my hand sharpening is ok (I'm still debating getting an EdgePro) - I don't get to sharpen as often as I'd like... Thanks!

How did the shrimp and scallops come out at 59C for 2 hours?

Some Whole Foods have them, some don't. I also see them frequently at Korean and Japanese markets (look for "Maitaki"). ← sorry should have mentioned I just checked the one on houston. Any sugeestions for korean/japanese places? I will stop by sunshine mart and .. the other one by there near coopers sq. tomorrow on my way to the union sq. whole foods. ← I commonly see Maitake in the Whole Foods at Union Sq... they're prepackaged and are usually of decent quality. The same prepackaged ones are usually available at the Sunrise Mart in the East Village..

I do flank steak at 131F for 24 hours every 3-4 weeks... comes out great every time... I also second the idea that a little smoke goes a long way - I've done smoked duck breast - smoked for about 30 min. then into the 131 water bath for a while (past pasteurization times) then into the ice bath then refrig... sliced and served room temp, comes out really good... very nice smoke flavor, and perfectly cooked...

Hey, Kenneth. You are correct. There is a taper from bolster to tip. The distal taper, as it is called, does keep the tip from being inordinately thick. Even with the distal taper, though, the tip is still thicker than the edge, at least on most German, French & American made knives. The other part of the problem, as you rightly note, is accommodating the arc of the blade as it sweeps toward the tip. You'll have to check with Ben Dale, inventor of the Edge Pro, for the detailed explanation, but because the blade is not fixed to the blade table -- i.e. you do, in fact, move it across the table -- you are sharpening with a series of arcs rather than one big one. That's the problem with systems like the Lansky or Gatco. They're fine for short-bladed knives, but once you get over three inches or so the arc of the stone can't match the edge without repositioning the jig. With the Edge Pro you are playing connect the dots with a series of arcs. And because you don't (or shouldn't) swing the stone past the edges of the blade table, they are short arcs at that. You also rotate the knife on the table as you move from heel to tip, presenting a (mostly) straight section of edge to the stone. It's a compromise, but it's the best compromise I've found so far (aside from freehand sharpening, that is). Hope this helps. If not, and if you still have questions, email or call Ben Dale at Edge Pro Inc. and report back here. Ben always takes time to answer questions. I'll be eager to hear what he has to say. Take care, Chad ← Chad - thanks so much for clearing that up... I thought that that's how it would have to work - but whenever I looked at the video of the Edge Pro, it didn't seem that he was doing that - it just looked like he swept the stone over the knife as he held it in one spot on the table.. It makes perfect sense not to bring the stone past the left/right table edges - that way, the arc is so short, it's essentially straight, for all intents and purposes... Thanks again!!

Hi Chad - thanks so much for this guide!!! I'm a little confused by the statement above... I understand that if you look at the cross section of the blade from the handle to the tip, it forms the triangle you discuss, with the spine forming the widest point of the triangle, and the edge forming the tip of the triangle... but if you look from the top down, with the handle towards you and the spine on top, the blades are tapered so that it forms another triangle (two long sides - that is the length of the blade, and the short side that is the thickness of the blade at the bolster). So, while the point of the western knives may be technically in the middle of the width of the blade, the blade thins as you go from bolster to tip, so the point isn't really that thick - it's much thinner than the thickness of the blade at the same latitude at the bolster. Unless of course, we're talking about a stamped blade, in which case it is of uniform thickness.... but most quality western knives are not stamped blades, but forged ones that taper from bolster to tip... A question I have with the Edge Pro is that the sharpening mechanism is fixed at one point so the sweep is circular - but a knife edge isn't circular - it's usually flat (or close to it) running from the bolster to about the middle of the blade, and then sweeps up to the tip... so I don't understand how you can maintain a consistent angle with a circular radius sharpening A) a straight edge or B) a circular edge with a different radius than that of the Edge Pro without constantly moving the knife back and forth and constantly adjusting the blade stop to the width required.... Help and thanks!!!!

That marrow in the osso bucco was a revelation... everything else in the dish was a waste of time, by comparison... I was thinking now of doing an "upscale" pho bo - where I have the pho broth, but clear like a consomme (I've done this before in the pressure cooker - works great), little ravioli filled with the cooked marrow (which take the place of the rice noodles and the marrow that gets usually integrated into the broth), and some raw prime rib eye sliced thin that is "cooked" in the broth at the last minute... finish with chives to act as the sliced raw onion/scallion component... ETA: It's a great idea to have the butcher slice the marrow bones into 1" thick slices... I didn't think of that ..

Has anyone done beef or veal bone marrow before? I did one a while ago by default when I did an osso bucco... the osso bucco was done at 82.2 for about 6 hours, I think... it was good, but the marrow stole the show... Has anyone done just a marrow bone? If so, what temp/time and how did it come out? Any suggestions?? Thanks!

I do a flank steak all the time this way.... comes out tender like a NY strip, but it's much cheaper.... I jaccard first, season with S&P, then bag and cook at 55C for 24 hours.... then take the bag out of the bath, let it cool a bit (10 min?), then take the steaks out of the bag, blot with a paper towel, then I dust with Wondra flour... a quick 15s sear in a hot pan with peanut oil makes them nice and brown...

You can also buy slices from Hudson Valley Foie Gras... they come as 4, 1 ounce slices vacuum packed on a card... I get this in Manhattan from Ottomanelli on Bleecker St. who routinely has them in stock - I think the card is $20, which, ounce for ounce isn't as good of a value as a whole lobe, but minimizes waste if you're only going to use a small amount - I've heard freezing is ok, but I gather the texture gets altered slightly... Also, I've had experience with Citarella - you can get a half lobe there rather than a whole lobe, and the price is the same per pound as the whole lobe.

You can try to fold back the top ofthe bag while filling - sort of like what you do when filling a piping bag.... then unfold and seal...

I was reading notes of when George Pralus was teaching a class to David Bouley and other pros... he recommends putting cook/chill items into perforated hotel pans with ice - so a layer of ice, layer of bagged items, then another layer of ice, etc... and keep that in your walk-in... he says it's the only way to be sure that you're keeping the item at <34F since a walk-in can get upwards of 55F during service when the door is opened very often. Before you go about the ice ordeal, you can always try something out by putting a needle probe thermometer into the center of an item and monitor it from the outside - that way, you'll see the difference in temp between the inside of the item, andthe temp of the refrig... depending on the mass of the item and surface area, there should be a lag in change in temp of the item if the refrigerator gets warm for an hour... it won't follow the refrigerator temp... also, once all the items are well chilled, maybe you'd want to put them all in a big pan together - that way, the combined thermal mass will help keep them cool if the refrig. warms up temporarily...

Yeah - that looks great! My squab came out really good, thanks to all the suggestions... but unfortunately, I didn't have presence of mind to take any pictures... basically there was a squab breast cooked SV to 55C (I thought it was slightly too 'medium' to my taste and next time I'll try 53.3C), chilled, then reheated during a quick sear in a very hot pan... that, topped with a foie medallion cooked to 55C also (that came out really good - very little shrinkage - still a bit rare inside). The whole thing was covered in a sheath of thin caramelized sugar studded with cocoa nibs, star anise and coriander. This was served with a chocolate sauce which was basically veal stock enriched with squab bones, with bittersweet chocolate whisked in at the end... All in all, I think it came out pretty well - even though the sugar shell was on the sweet side (I used sugar, not the fondant,isomalt combo) it was balanced with the cocoa nibs, squab/foie, and by the slightly bitter sauce.... if you had all elements at once, it was very well balanced - but the sugar shell on its own was a bit too sweet.

Celery salt has a very specific flavor.... To me, celery salt is the primary seasoning component in Old Bay... So, with that said, I think it would be good on steamed crabs, or shrimp... or maybe in some crab cakes...

Thanks everyone for your great replies... I'm actually doing something non-pastry related... I was thinking of making a sugar shell flecked with cocoa nibs as a shell for a squab breast with foie gras in a chocolate sauce for V-Day... I figured I could make the sugar shell in advance and mold it onto an aluminum foil faux squab breast and then just place it onto the squab breast before service. So far, I've done the first idea presented which was to take my original sugar shell (which was about double the thickness that I wanted) and broke it into pieces and then buzzed it in the spice grinder... then put the dust onto the silpat and into a 350 oven... worked pretty well, but then another shot worked well reheating with the propane torch... I used plain table sugar, not the fondant, etc. as recommended, and it worked pretty well... The taste test confirmed... a good success! Rolling is another good idea, but I wanted the cocoa nibs (embedded in the sugar) to be larger than the thickness of the shell, so that might be problematic... I love eGullet!!!

hello sugar/pastry experts! I am looking to make a sugar (like a blond caramel color) shell that is super thin... I did some experimenting, but can't seem to get it as thin as I'd like - I tried pouring the liquid sugar onto a silpat and spreading it around, but it cooled before I could spread it thin enough... Is there some trick I'm missing? Or some way to make the sugar less viscous before pouring? Texturally, I'd like the final product to crack if smacked with the back of a knife or spoon - so I don't know if adding corn syrup would help becuase I don't know if it would make the final product too flexible... I'd love to hear any thoughts.... Thanks!