Sher.eats

hey everyone I have a 25x25cm 5cm thick skin-on "back rib", which I'm planning to crack. The "standard" method is: 1) Torch, scrap, hot water, poke/score skin. Salt/Baking soda, let dry 2) Roast at high heat. I'm thinking of breaking down the collagen between the bone and meat before crackling the skin: 1) Torch, scrap, hot water, poke/score skin. Salt/Baking soda, let dry (same) 2) Low temp (65C) oven uncovered for 6-8hours (abitary time) 3) 2) Roast at high heat. (same) Good idea? Thanks!

I followed a recipe in Thomas Keller "Under Pressure", I can't say I can prove cling film is save at 60C except I've always done that and seen many other chefs do it... My chicken was "dried" in the fridge for 36 hours so it was very dry and sticky, so it took less than 30 seconds per "side" of the roll. The recipe asked for transglutinmase to bind everything together, I didn't have it so I tied the roll together with kitchen strings after sous vide to the skin kept shape during the frying. Keller moussed the breast and used the thigh, but cut away the tendons of the leg muscles before spreading the mousse. The high cooking temp of leg (64C vs 60C), I believe, is better in that the mousse to set better and giving you more tolerance to brown the skin without overcooking the meat. I can see why you want to SV the ballotine first, but SV the whole roll gives better flavour and texture.

I made one the other day (see http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?showto...=entry1617558 ) I pan crisped the skin after SV. Use cling film to roll the stuffed chicken into a cylinder, tighten the edges by twisting so that the pressure will keep roll in shape. What was your stuffing and did you use any "binding chemicals"?

hey everyone thanks for replying! Peter the eater Your instructions are similar to the typical method used here in Hong Kong. I wanted to dry plucking the chicken for crispier skin and not draining the blood for more flavour and pinkness in meat. You say "The fresher the better in my exerience", have you tried cooking a chicken killed for less than 2 hours (before rigor mortis) and ~4 hours (the peak of rigor)? I kept a few "nice" feathers for keeping. Azureus I plucked the chicken 4 hours after death, no problems with the small feathers but the big wing feathers grows so deep in the flesh I had to "twist" before plucking. Re: Hanging fowl: Have you seen those ducks hung on walls of Bistros in France (especially Lyon), usually next to a rabbit. I wonder if their organs have been removed.... Magictofu Thanks, glad you liked it! HKDave Thanks for all those sources! So having a chicken killed in the afternoon for diner is the worst case sceneario haha. If you had a chicken killed for 10 hours would you cook it or wait a few more hours for enzyme action to further tenderise the meat as well as "drying" the meat a bit? Paulraphael My chicken was fridged in the "roasting position", hanging it actually makes sense to "stretch" the muscles althought this will use up a lot of fridge space. Same question to you as HKDave: "If you had a chicken killed for 10 hours would you cook it or wait a few more hours for enzyme action to further tenderise the meat as well as "drying" the meat a bit?" Thanks everyone!!

Here is my "report" on my observations (and some cooking pics) On Wednesday afternoon a free range chicken was killed via neck snapping, as such there was no wound and no blood loss. The chicken didn't really struggle and the meat (thigh and breast) did not tense up... At home, 4 hours after death, the meat has gone slightly firmer. Feathers plucked one by one, without predunking chicken in warm water. It's pretty easy actually, although the feathers attached to the wing grows ~ 2cm into the skin. The butt of the chicken was wiped and sprayed with alcohol to (hopefully) do some disinfection. Then a small cavity was cut, and the giblets were removed, carefully not breaking anything especially the stomach and intestines. The trachea and esophagus were removed via the neck. The chicken was briefly washed and thoroughly dried, wrapped in towel and placed in the fridge. At this point the flesh is firm to touch and the skin is slightly "plastic" . 36 hours later, Friday afternoon, the chicken was removed from the fridge. The skin has developed a deep yellow colour with nice red hues, the feel is soft and sticky, totally unlike supermarket chickens' wet and rubbery skins. I think not draining the blood may have caused the red-hued skin? The wings were "frenched out"... Breasts, wings, legs, scallops yet to be removed. The flesh is amazing soft, as soft as sashimi grade scallops. The texture is smooth and slightly oily. There was no "juice" or "blood" even in the deep areas of the thigh. I have no idea where the blood went. To test the meat, the tenderloins were browned in a hot pan with butter on one side, the other side just "kissed" the pan for seconds. No seasoning before frying (Murray river salt on the side). A simple shallot-ginger infused olive oil was brushed onto the chicken. The dry-touching fillets did not release much moisture when fried which helped the nice browning. The muscle grain was near nonexistant, just like a scallop. The chicken flavour was deep and robust with a "long tail" of aromas. There was a slight game-like finish, this could be the breed or the free range or the non blood drain or the "dry aging". This is the breast, sous vided with beurre monte at 60C for 20 min, cooled, then the skin crisped on a hot pan. The chicken yield less than 1ml of "juice" into the bag, which was reemulsified with the butter for a sauce. There was no other flavouring added except the salt and pepper. The skin crisped out amazing, with "bubbles" forming which yield a nice "crack", I thought the sous vide process will cause the skin to absorb moisture but yet the skin was done after less than 30 seconds on the hot pan. The texture I expected to be slightly tougher than the tenderloins and they were, but only the slightly, but still easily the most tender chicken (yet still with flavour) that I've ever eaten, comparable to a French Bresse haha. There was more "rose" in the breast, not sure if because of the blood drain but the effect on flavour is positive. Feeling confident, decided to try a harder recipe heavily based on one from Under Pressure by TK. The leg was deboned and the tendons removed. Some muscles were removed and others butterflied to create an even surface. A mousse of smoked bacon (25% fat), dry-sauted shitake mushooms, egg yolk and seasoning was spread onto the meat... ..rolled in cling film and sous vided at 64C for 1 hour. Skin was crisped on hot pan after sous vide, dish served with honey-chicken stock-butter glazed chestnuts and "micro celery". The recipe wanted Activa to bind the mousse into the chicken as well as the ends of the chicken, I didn't have Activa but it worked out ok. The mousse which was nicely pink after blending turned grey after cooking...but the thigh meat was gorgeously pink! It was late (1am) and the saucing...could be done better. Without this chicken (as supposed to other market chickens) this recipe would not work as the meat wouldn't be soft enough to "bend", soft enough to be cooked at low temp for "short" time, did not release much juice into the bag and the skin wouldn't be crisped so easily and nicely. So in conclusion: 1) Small muscle fiber = Breed 2) "Soft" meat = Breed and/or Not stressing chicken at death and/or Aging for 36 hours 3) "Waxy/dry" (in a good way) meat" = Breed and/or Not dunking chicken to remove feathers and/or Aging 4) Intense flavour = Breed and/or Free range and/or Aging and/or Not draining blood and/or (maybe) Not stressing chicken at death? 5) "Dry soft" skin = Not dunking chicken to remove feathers and/or Aging 6) "Rose" skin and flesh = Not dunking chicken to remove feathers and/or Aging and/or Not draining blood That's it!

My source is Harold McGee, whose book doesn't give many details on the timing. "...most meat in the United States is aged only incidentally, during the few days it takes to be shipped packing plant to market. This is enough for chicken, which benefits from a day or two of aging, and for pork and lamb, which benefit from a week (the unsaturated fats of pork and poultry go rancid relatively quickly)." "Rigor sets in (after about 2.5 hours in the steer, 1 hour or less in lamb, pork, and chicken) when the muscle fibers run out of energy, their control systems fail and trigger a contracting movement of the protein filaments, and the filaments lock in place. Carcasses are hung up in such a way that most of their muscles are stretched by gravity, so that the protein filaments can't contract and overlap by much; otherwise the filaments bunch up and bond very tightly and the meat becomes exceptionally tough. Eventually, protein-digesting enzymes within the muscle fibers begin to eat away the framework that holds the actin and myosin filaments in place. The filaments are still locked together, and the muscles cannot be stretched, but the overall muscle structure weakens, and the meat texture softens. This is the beginning of the aging process. It becomes noticeable after about a day in beef, after several hours in pork and chicken." So it seems possible that a significant amount of aging happens in 8 hours ... maybe that's all a chicken really needs. What I take from McGee is that there is at least a chance that more than a day of aging is beneficial, but that more than two is not. From personal experience I know chickens can be delicious and tender 12 or 14 hours after slaughter. But I don't think I've had any that were fresher than that. ← hey paulraphael! sorry for late reply haha. Thanks for the McGee info, I ended up cooking the chicken 36 hours after death. Next time I'll try to cook one that's been dead for less than an hour...

I think that's the big difference. I have had chicken killed in the afternoon that I've served later that evening, and thus would be within that rigor mortis period. The meat is more, well, stiff. It's hard to describe. FWIW, I documented an experience obtaining freshly killed chicken here. ← hey chrisamirault! so i guess if chicken is for dinner it should be killed in the early morning...what's the textural (and flavour?) difference between a chicken cooked 30min after death vs 8+ hours? == does anyone know about draining blood if chicken was neck-snapped? thanks!

Rigor mortis starts rising in poultry soon after slaughter and peaks after only 2 to 2.5 hours, so you can avoid it only by cooking a bird very soon after slaughter - like maybe 30 minutes. Hong Kong is one of the few places we can do this, but the government is just this year ending the sell of 'fresh' (=killed to order) poultry in our local markets due to bird flu concerns. Rigor in poultry largely dissipates about 8 hours after slaughter, so in commercial poultry, it's a non-issue by the time you buy it. There's no benefit in aging longer than a day. After that, you've just got a chicken that's not as fresh any more. Re "air dried" - they probably mean air chilled, as opposed to water bath chilled. Lots of info here: http://naturalspecialtyfoodsmemo.blogspot....d-chickens.html ← hey HKDave! hmm you say 8 hours but paulraphael says one-two days haha. The 30min window is pretty short to bring the chicken home, clean and cook hmm...my one has been killed for 36 hours now and I'll have it for lunch (roast whole or portion then sous vide hmm...) The HK gov is buying back live poultry retail licenses, the price isn't high but most sellers are approaching retirement age anyway so most are selling the business. There are a few remaining, one of them is in Yuen Long and is where I visited and bought the chicken. Here's an article in Chinese on it: http://fatboyeat.blogspot.com/2008/10/blog-post_30.html Thanks!!

hey chrisamirault! by quickly i guess before rigor mortis, which paulraphael says happens within an hour of killing. I guess next time I could rush home immediately... can you describe more about the textural differences "fresh" vs "aged" and the respective advantages for different cooking techniques (roasting, poaching, sous vide)... Thanks!

Thanks paulraphael,Magictofu! So I'll let the chicken "sit" in the fridge for 48hours, hopefully there won't be "problems". Still not sure about not draining the blood. Going to make Thomas Keller's chestnut chicken in under pressure!

hey everybody! visited a chicken farm (free range, organic) and had a chicken killed via neck snapping, instead of the typical neck-slotting (so the process was very "clean" and the chicken wasn't "stressed"). took the chicken home and plucked its feathers, carefully removed the internal organs (and ate them). Gently washed the skin and the cavity and patted very dry with towels. chicken is now wrapped in a fresh towel in a 4C fridge 1) are there any benefits in letting the chicken "age" in the fridge? if so how long is should the aging period be, what are the health "cautions"? 2) here in hong kong, chickens are killed by slotting the neck and draining the blood. my chicken was killed by snapping the neck, presumably the "blood" is still "in" my chicken, is this good or bad? == on a separate note, I also visited a chicken shop in Hong Kong who claims to be the only place who "air dries its chicken". The have a website it's in Chinese, but the details are the chicken is killed (not sure how) then gutted then washed (? ) then placed in a 3C enviroment for 24 hours to "limit bacteria growth", then the chicken is place in a vacuum sealed bag, the packaging says the chicken can be kept for up to 5 days from killing. I bought one of these. Anybody knows more about this "air dried" process? THANK YOU!!!

If the object is to bring the surface of the steaks to 170C, (the "ideal" temp for browning, any higher will cause burning), jackal10's calculations means your pan temp of 170C would do nicely. A hotter pan will bring the surface up to temperature faster (i'm not sure if we have disagreements on this?...) which means the steaks will brown faster, which means less time for the heat to "cook" the sub surface. Problem is the steak isn't perfectly flat so a higher temp pan won't necessarily brown the areas not directly touching the pan any faster, meanwhile the areas in direct contact will start to burn. The chef taking a look at the colouring will see patches of deep brown near black and other patches still grey so he decides to pan it a bit more. Thus causing a huge sub surface overcooked area. Keeping the pan at 170C together with lots of butter allows the whole surface to be nicely browned without any bits being burnt. This is fabulous. The disadvantage is the longer browning time which if the steak is lean will create a overcooked zone. So, if steak is well marbled, pan at 170C to allow uniform deep browning while the fat content will prevent the sub surface from getting too cooked. If steak is not well marbled, choose whether you want more browning (use 170C pan method) or for more "rare-ability" sear at high heat until just before any part begins to burn, some parts might be only slightly grey because it wasn't in direct contact with the pan but you have to remove it from the intense heat of the pan into a gentle heat of a slow oven to evenly cook the meat through....

But isn't this method just a reverse derivative of the classic method? Both uses high heat for a short time to brown the surface and gentle heat to cook the steak through. Fat Guy's interpretation of Ducasse's method cooks the steaks for 10 min per side on a 170F pan (jackal10 calculation), which i believe, should the steak have not been so marbled, will yield a area of "greyness".

The hotter the pan the faster it brings the surface of the beef to the 170C or so needed for browning. While the surface is heating up, most of the heat is transferred into the meat underneath it, if the meat reaches 70C it starts to be overcooked ("the grey area"). So the hotter the pan, the less time it takes to brown the surface, the less time and heat is transferred into the sub-surface, the less volume of greyness no? I'm thinking on such a marvelously marbled steak like yours the fat acts as a "buffer" slowing the rate of heat transfer, so even 10 mins of medium heat didn't bring the sub-surface to beyond 60C. So I'm guessing your method is brilliant for a thick well marbled steak but not necessarily so for other not as prime steaks? Assuming a evenly medium-rare edge to edge steak is desired instead of one with a "gradient"....

The steak I got was one of the best-marbled steaks I've ever seen. It was butchered differently from the photo too -- no big bone sticking out, etc. One thing I should note, though, is that the quality of the steak does not affect the efficacy of this method. Thickness is the bigger issue. If you get a nice thick rib steak from the supermarket, this method works just as well. In other words, it will make that steak as good a steak as it can be. ← The heat of the pan is at least at 300F, yet after 45min the near-surface of your steak still looks deliciously medium-rare (so ~140F). Fat has a higher heat capacity which allows the "steak" to better transfer the heat from the surface into the center right? So this recipe when given a steak with not as good marbling, the meat areas near the surface will be gray and dry instead of pink and juicy?

hi mjmchef, Chefb28, TimR (again)!!! I'm thinking about staging because I want to leave robuchon HK, this is because I am no longer learning much here and I think the standard of cuisine is falling. I have a job offer from hotel restaurant of four seasons hong kong (common consensus is 2 Michelin star (book out in dec), compared to l'atelier 1 or even 0). I also have a good connection and likely a offer from Robuchon Macau (3 star definite) but they will be renovating and will be reopening and hiring next year September. There's more... Robuchon is having a new L'atelier in a new country (sorry can't tell =( ) and so far I've been asked if I want to move there. If I do, I will probably have a 1 to 2 level promotion but have to stay for 1 year at least. But I will be teaching people instead of me learning. (thanks for reading up to here!) so my options are: - stay in HK robuchon, transfer to new L'atelier in March 09 w promotion, work 1 year, hopefully the executive chef there will care and help me transfer to Paris or Tokyo - transfer to four seasons hong kong, work for 1 year, transfer to Le Cinq four seasons paris (this transfer is confirmed) and take it from there - stay in HK robuchon or transfer to four seasons, but then transfer next year to Robuchon macau (i'm not sure about loyalty issues....) hard decision, so for the mean time I want to take a 1 month stage! The problem with my "qualifications" is: i've only been in this industry for 1 year (promoted fast because I speak french and thanks to eG was already very familiar with food on day 1, retrograding potato for potato for robuchon mash, sous vide etc, put another way, the other people was crap not that I'm good) but I did not go to cooking school. so my resume is thin... THANK YOU!!! edited to remove "unnecessary details" (thanks Abra, gfron1)

hey TimH, food1, prasantri, thx for replying!! http://www.tkrg.org/category.php?id=1 is the careers page for Thomas Keller Restaurant Group, problem is I can't find info on staging. Is it a bad idea to call and ask? Does staging = no pay (of any sort whatsoever), how about meals etc? or there's no industry standard and its restaurant by restaurant. (here in Hong Kong, you get a basic $10 USD "transport" fee per day, meals are provided). Has anyone staged in US and France and can tell me the differences? finally: how long do stages usually last? days, weeks, months? or is it stay until you annoy the chef..... once again thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

hey everybody!! I'm a chef de partie @ L'Atelier de Joel Robuchon Hong Kong, been only working in this industry for a year (previously was a undergrad of nutritional sciences). I want to ask how difficult is it to get a stagiere placement in 3 michelin-level restaurants of Paris or one of Thomas Keller's institutions? "difficult" as in 1) "availability vs competition" and 2) "work permit/documentation" 1) I'm aged 21, I started off in L'atelier (today, last year) as a kitchen helper (summer job) but stayed on and got promoted to my current position. I did not go to cooking school (there wasn't one in hong kong) but was always a foodie (thanks eG). How "unqualified" am I to ask for a stagerie at 3-star restaurants? 2) I'm a dual-citizen of Canada and Hong Kong, is this problematic for working in US or France? THANKS EVERYONE!!

Hi Mallet, Yup, just re-read FL, TK says to steep the (1.5lb) lobsters in hot water for 2 min then de-shell the tail, then to poach the (room temp) tails in beurre monte for 5-6 as you say... For the lobster I just steeped (1.1Lb and the tail yielded a 5cm ball) the steeping heat only penetrated 1mm into the flesh, so the only cooking will be the poaching step. Beurre monte splits at 86C so the lobster will poached at <86C for 5-6min, interestingly TK doesn't "rest" the lobster after poaching, unless the ideal cooking temp (internal) is at the 80ish zone, but will 5-6min allow 23C (room) -> 80C through 3cm (radius) ?hmm.... I SVed a knuckle and claw for 30min at 48C with a little butter, the "skin" was light orange and the flesh just-white, the texture I would describe as "al dente" like meat cooked at 50C...I personally loved it, but I like everything rare-raw and semi treated it like a sashimi, for a more "conventional" texture maybe a temp higher is needed?... Does anyone know why lobster meat requires more heat than meats and fish? Thanks!!!!!!

Hi KennethT! How long did you SV the lobster @45C for (and how thick was the lobster meat?) Still confused on the structure of lobster meat (muscle, fats, collagen?), the layout of the tail muscle(s?), and whether to portion it along or against the tail... thanks!!

Has anyone experienced with SV desserts? I tried "confiting" fruits and rhubarbs (like TK's UP's frontcover) but can't think of a dessert the main component is sous vided....

Hi all! Does anybody know the cooking temperture(s) of lobster? Does lobster meat have "levels of doneness" like salmon (~43C = "mi cuit cooked" but raw looking, 48C = cooked and dark pink, >50C = firm "cooked" and pale pink). Most interested in the "mi cuit" temp for lobster as i am having a sous vide lobster trial (argh can't wait for Under Pressure), but also want to know the temps for oven roasting etc... thanks all! P.S: lobsters arriving in < 24 hrs!

Hi slkinsey, thanks for replying, I thought (wrongly) 65C would yield completely grey and dry meat, I should have asked if there is a difference SVing at any temp above "fully cooked" (OTBE)? The red coloured liquid expelled from meats when cooked lightly is not blood? I'm quite confused at the doneness of meats: when the meat cells are heated beyond 53ish (not sure exactly) the protein denatures and changes shape, "squeezing" out the "juice?" stored inside (or between?) the cells. Is this in stages (maybe only 10% of "juice" will be expelled at 53C even after a long time) or is there an absolute temp (once above 53C it starts and the higher the faster, but if kept at 53C for a long time it will eventually all come out)? And then there's the change of colour from red to brown due to the myoglobin, there are also "stages": red pink light pink etc is this absolute or stages?.... haha very confused, thanks again!!!

Hi, Some random questions.... 1. For cuts of meat low in collagen (tenderloin?) is there a difference to SV at 65C compared to 95C? Both temp will overcook the meat but will the 95C be more mushy? 2. In meat, how is the water "stored", all as blood? When overcooking and the meat expels juice is that all cooked blood? Beef cooked below 54C shouldn't loose any "juice" right? 3. Can one "fix" or "retrograde" meat cells before cooking to "strengthen" meat cells? 3. What temp should foie gras be SV at? What is the structure of FG, fat inside cells or fat held by a "net" of cells? Thanks everyone!

Paulraphael: I agree on letting it age a bit in the bag, the meat was bagged on the 21st Aug so its been inside for a week already, enough you think? Sticker says consume by 18th Sept, ~ a month from bagging. I usually use 2 pans: brown the steak in a v. hot cast iron, meanwhile noisette some butter in another pan under low heat, when steak is browned transfer over and start basting, keeping temp just hot enough to keep the butter foaming. This way I can use non clarified butter. Tim: Thanks for that anatomical description, I guess I'll assume the two lobes are alike. DTBarton: That Mexican recipe sounds great, by grill I'm guessing you mean like a barbecue? Don't have access to one and I'm thinking the chili powder might burn in a hot pan?.... Thanks!!!!!