macrosan

Yeah, but who would put a bun inside a hamburger ?

Yes, but the point is that will evolve into better dinosaurs for the future

Yes RobertS, that is exactly what I believe. It has been said in many other threads from many perspectives that haute cuisine is not enough, it must of necessity be accompanied by fine cutlery and linen, fine service, even fine dress. I think one of the Steves asked the rhetorical question on another thread "Who would want to eat an Alain Ducasse meal sitting on an egg-carton in a parking lot?" or something along those lines. Danny Meyer is right. Fine dining is a total experience. The balance between the element of that experience will change over time with public taste, and with the experience of restaurateurs. I would hesitate even to talk in terms of the relative importance of the individual elements of the overall experience, ie is the food most important, or the service, etc. I am confident that a slow process of evolution will ensure not only that fine dining, or "old dining" will survive, but that it will also continue to change sufficiently to maintain a freshness of experience for those who wish it.

I tried to report this post to a moderator, but my PC instantly crashed, so I'll post it here instead. SteveP, this is quite unacceptable. You are trying to shake the very foundations of eGullet in even mentioning the words "save a lot of time". We at eGullet do not wish to save time. If we did, we would go to Chowhound. OK, I like the principle, but that's an awfully weak piece of code. Doesn't remotely rival "I like pie" or "Of course, of course" or any of the other creative codes in force at this time. What about "Pass the cucumber sandwiches, darling" or "Fucking headless aristo" or something else with a little more panache. I believe it was actually "How many cats did it take to make that mother-fucker?" That is not a statistic, it is simply an unwarranted and inaccurate observation made in the heat of verbal battle. Thank you very much. Name the date and exact location of the queue, and I shall appear therein. I take it you're paying.

Fascinating post, Robert, and very thought-provoking. I found myself nodding in agreement right up to the very last sentence "Look hard enough" has always been a requirement in the process of finding excellence, in restaurants as much as any other service or product. As it happens, the pursuit of excellence is of itself a rewarding pastime, certainly for eGulleteers. But the days of excellence, or of "Old Dining", are never numbered. In fact, old dining will thrive on its growing scarcity. It will become even more excellent as it becomes scarcer, and as the uncommitted pretenders fall into the "new dining" paradigm. Those people, like yourself, who crave that experience will actually become more committed to seeking it out as it becomes scarcer. Of course you will have to pay the price, and of course "old dining" will move even further out of the financial reach of many. In time, after that industry segment has re-established itself in terms of culture and purpose and skills, it will grow again become more widely available. This is all a part of a cycle, and the process of retrenchment followed by regrowth finally creates something much stronger, and I believe in this case better. I suppose I'm just another Darwinian foodie.

I always wished I had the nerve to do this. I have frequently stood up and pretended I was leaving, in the hope that this would cause the bill to appear, but never actually left the premises. I'm sure you know this, Mog, but you are committing a criminal offence in that you are fulfilling the intention of not paying (willingness would be legally equated with intent). I know how irritating it is to wait ages for a bill to arrive, but I wouldn't like to see you in court for it

Helena, I beg you to keep the books in their plain wrappers, and not under any circumstances to divulge any of their contents on this august forum. Please don't confuse me with facts The eGullet Manual of Common Practice, Chapter 174

The place looked very new - that's why I asked. Even the cutlery was pristine. Maybe they had a makeover, and that's what she meant. Or maybe she gets so many complaints that she tries to excuse the problems by pretending they've just opened.

Oh no, Wilfrid, don't do that. You might encourage some others to do the same, and where would we be then ?

I have just had the worst meal of any kind I've ever had in my life anywhere in the world Actually, on reflection, it may have been worse than that. Bertorelli at 11 Frith Street, W1 folks. Remember the name, and shudder. OK so it wasn't a proper meal, I just had 40 minutes for a quick lunch, but even in that context my experience was horrific. I told the waitress I was in a hurry, ordered a glass of Chianti and Spaghetti with mushroom and cream sauce. Sounded easy enough to me After 15 minutes, I had to chase the waitress (she was one of two waitstaff serving about 20 tables) through the restaurant to ask where my wine was. "Ooops" she said, not a hint of apology, then 5 minutes later she put it on my table as she walked by. I then discovered she'd made a mistake, and I'd been given a glass of poor quality vinegar for £4.25. Two minutes later, the floor manager (I think) presented me with a plate of spaghetti. This was appalling. Square cut, cheap, tasteless pasta, undercooked, half of it with the yellow hardened skin it had got by being kept under a grill for several minutes to keep it warm. The mushroom and cream sauce contained small pieces of maybe two small mushrooms in floury, tastelss, runny whitish sauce. I left half of the wine and half of the spaghetti. I asked for the bill after spending 5 minutes trying to attract someone's attention. At least I utilised that time eating two packs of grissini, which were quite good. The floor manager collected my half full plate and half full glass from the table without comment. To my eternal shame I didn't complain (I honestly did have a meeting to get to) but as I left I asked the receptionist (yes, they have one of those at the entrance) how long they'd been open. "Just over a month" she replied. "I don't think you'll make two months" I said as I disappeared up the road. Cheap shot at the wrong person, I know, but life's too short.

Steven, please take care. An inner voice (which has never let me down in the past) tells me that you may not be able to fulfil delivery of this item. I think MrP may already have bought it from several other vendors ....

OK, I'm willing to add a totally untested hypothesis, based on an almost total lack of factual knowledge. 1) During the 19th Century, French was the lingua franca of a significant portion of the "civilised" world. It was certainly considered the language of culture, and the language of choice of the upper classes, including Russia and England. 2) The geographic distribution of cuisine would require similar distribution of recipe books, and since French was the widely spoken language, French cuisine won the commercial race. Ta-daaaa

According to SteveP, White Castle mini perforated burger things

I think you made a wise decision, Iris

Robert, on behalf of generations of Transylvanian squabs, I thank you for your kind words. Thanks also for that information, which is very helpful. I do like the sound of a "relaxing and eating area" which is my idea of vacational heaven

Soba I have eaten hot dogs on the streets of New York and Chicago, in the ballparks of Phoenix and the Bronx and Los Angeles, and even in a cafe in Boston. I have indeed sampled Hebrew National. I cannot say I have ever enjoyed a hot dog. I get the feeling that Aurora has it right. It's a nostalgia trip, and a mind association with baseball and the like (I do love baseball). I can quite understand that, but I don't think (pending my forthcoming education by Fat Guy) that justifies a culinary discussion of the merits of one hot dog against another. Ah well, breath is bated in anticipation ....

Oh boy, just as someone starts to talk to me, I get distracted at the office Back to more important things now. Thanks for the warning, Jinny, but I trust FatGuy implicitly Steven, I'm not sure I've ever had knackwurst. I have eaten frankfurters (such as the Hebrew National make that someone mentioned) and I think all the American hot dogs I've eaten have been frankfurters. However, I absolutely acknowledge that there are good sausages and others, and I assume that knackwurst is like any other sausage in this context. So if I've passed the entrance exam, I'm ready to be admitted to the mysteries of the degree course

I have to nominate Chapter One in Farnborough, Kent. This place was recommended to me by Scott and Samantha at the eGullet Dinner last year, so when I was invited there by a supplier I jumped at the chance. Service in the bar was awful, and in the restaurant slightly 'posh' for my liking, but the food, wine and decor were excellent.

Isn't it interesting that everyone on this thread has something to say about burgers, but not a comment about hot dogs. And I'm not surprized. I'm gonna hang around here till someone answers my question about what's the big deal with hot dogs, beyond sarcastic comments about my beloved country's own culinary nonentities.

Wow, that sounds like an interesting presentation, John. What did the fourth guy in the quartet play ?

I hesitate even to say this on an American thread, but I honestly cannot conceive what there is to like in a hot dog. It's just a sausage in a bread roll, and as commonly served from street stalls in the USA, it's an over-stewed or over-roasted suasage of doubtful provenance in a stale piece of tasteless bread. The need to smother the aforesaid item in a combination of soggy sauteed onions, mustard, ketchup, and a variety of other tinned and jarred confections reinforces my view. I can accept the dish as relatively safe (hygienically speaking) emergency rations, but many people seem positively to like it. What am I missing ? Surely there can't be such a vast gap between the "great places" to buy a hot dog and all those I've sampled.

Yep, I'd like to join the growing band of olive freaks in this thread. I love 'em all, but specially Italian olives. In my local Italian restaurant, they put Grissini, home-made potato crisps (chips) and a bowl of green olives on the table when you sit down. When I go in, they just put out two or three bowls of olives (black and green) and a large empty bowl for me to put the stones in. I guess I eat 20 or so before every meal. They 'dress' them differently every time I go, but one of my favorites is olive oil, garlic and thyme. I never order a pizza without asking for olives to be added. I rarely order pasta without asking for olives to be added.

If you opened one of the pods, and couldn't find two identical peas, would this be a contravention of the Trade Descriptions Act ?

I think this question is one where the more you think about it, the more difficult it gets. So I'll go with my instant response, the two meals that came into my mind as soon as I read the question. The first was in about 1982 at Die Boerderij in Amsterdam. My special recollection was the rack of hare, shared by two of us, which was an extraordinary dish. The service and setting were magnificent, and I remember the conscious enjoyment of every mouthful of food that I ate. The second was last year, my first meal at Babbo. As I have said often since, the signature dish of lamb chops was the most perfect single dish I can recall ever eating. The rest of the meal and the service were terrific, but that one dish.....