annecros
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One more thought, maybe the service was snotty.
Possible. She had a two top taking up a table in her section and splitting a plate. Those conditions alone can sour a servers attitude.
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I like what I am getting with the starter flavorwise as well. I am only about two loaves in with a rye starter, but I am beginning to get that well worn flavor that I love.
I think my last two loaves were a bit overproofed. Not to the point of a bowl of dead yeast, but not quite right either. We have had warmer temperatures down here, and I hate turning on the air, so my ambient room temperature has been around 80 and probably a bit on the high side. We have a cool front coming through, so should be better this loaf.
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I do try to leave a higher percentage if the bill is small. I am taking up a table and taking away income, and small bills require nearly as much service as a large one. I tend to tip 20% as a standard.
She really didn't have to get in such a huff over it though. If that is her worst complaint, she hasn't been waitressing long.
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Since the 1960s, I haven't thought of Florida as being truly "southern" in culture. By geography, yes, but except for the panhandle area I think of it as a polyglot population. I have family in and around Tallahassee and near Crestview in Okaloosa county. That have been there since the late 19th century and they consider themselves true southerners.
Well, Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers (Gainesville, FL) would be surprised to hear that. You may want to check out Tom's accent when he voices "Lucky" on King of the Hill, or just plug in the album "Southern Accents" or "Pack up the Plantation" from the 1980s. Probably the NASCAR fans in Daytona, Sebring, Homestead and St. Petersburg would be interested as well. Heck, Moroso Motorsports park in Palm Beach County has a parking lot full of pickups, and you will spy more than one ball cap. Lynyrd Skynyrd ("Sweet Home Alabama") were a bunch of Jacksonville boys, as were Molly Hatchett. Then there are the fans at the Georgia/Florida game, or (Katy Bar the Door) the Florida/Florida State Game. Then there is Jon Kral (Ft. Pierce, between Palm Beach and the Space Coast), who wrote an excellent book on the subject of the Florida Cracker:
http://www.amazon.com/Cracker-Floridas-End...7833230-3200667
Then there are those guys in the Florida Cracker Bass Club, who hold six tournaments a year on Lake Okeechobee. I think I spy a red neck or two here:
http://www.bassfishingflorida.com/fcbass.htm
There is a lot of information in the Florida Cracker Webring:
http://www.ringsurf.com/netring?action=info&ring=flcracker
Florida is a pretty big state, and there is more to it than Dade, Broward and Eastern Palm Beach Counties (Drive west in Palm Beach county to Okeechobee or Glades and wonder at the rebel flags and Number "3"'s on the pickups, cows, horses, ATV's and the slow drawl). There there is that Disneyfied area in Orlando, that's the only other real exception to the Florida Southern rule.
Oak trees, spanish moss, gators, mosquitos, cane syrup, biscuits and gravy, greens, peas, hogs, bluejays, mockingbirds. Its all here, just a short drive from the beach.
Oops, I almost forgot Lawton Chiles! The classic Dixiecrat if I've ever seen one:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawton_Chiles
He won a Florida election with the old Southern saying:
"the old he-coon walks just before the light of day,"
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It was interesting to read this, keeping in mind what a local radio station said a few years ago; are you a redneck ( a dispariging term) or a good ol' boy (girl). If on a Sunday you go to church and then wash the truck, you're considered to be a good ol' boy, and hence, righteous.
Well, probably not righteous, per se. BUT, if you put off washing your truck in order to go to church, then you sacrificed a pleasurable activity for one that may or may not be as pleasurable. BUT, if you did so with an ulterior motive - well...
Good ol' Boy, or Girl, has been used in Southern circles as a disparaging characterization. Actually to my frame of reference, more negative connotations than redneck. Sort of a used car salesman kind of thing.
Not that we don't love a Good Ol' Boy, bless his heart.
So many subtleties. Guess that's what you do when the summer is long and hot. Observe, and speculate.
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especially considering that in 1898, Key West was the largest city, population wise, in the state of Florida, followed by Jacksonville then Pensacola.It's odd that noone would consider Key West a southern city.
But do you have to be a redneck if you consider yourself a Southerner? Or do you have to be a Southerner if you consider yourself a redneck?Even if you do not self identify as such, could you be a Southerner (redneck)?I find the figures for the coastal South interesting and revealing, in that it appears that area has a more distinct southern feel to those who live there than do the inland states.
From my reading this thread, food as defined by southerners can vary from area to area with a few mainstays across the board. The food culture of the South has changed and evolved over time according to the availibility and the demands of the Flresidents of that particular region.
Don't forget, Key West is the southernmost city in the US. The conch's have a very southern attitude, and will seceed at the drop of a hat. I know some conch's. I know how they self identify, and though they love the tourists, well... the tourists don't know everything.
Self identify vs. outside identify. Our upstate NY neighbors immediately identified us as rednecks when we moved in and said so, until we got to know each other and each other's children, then we somehow became "Southern" - with a disticntly Italian (polite in this case) hand gesture to accentuate the word "southern" as opposed to redneck. And very kindly impart some respect, from her point of view I suppose. She thought she was being nice to us.
Hey, she put rice in her chili. How southern can you get?
I think the terms "redneck" and "southern" are all dependent upon intent and voice inflection. A southern person will know if you are insulting them when you call them a redneck, but at the same time understands that "redneck" is actually a noble tag, believe it or not - and more times than not when it is meant as an insult it does not hit the intended target. I guess I am giving away some inside secrets here, but seriously. The joke is ultimately on the person who refers to another person as a redneck in a derisive manner. In case you have not noticed, redneck jokes are funnier in the south than they are in the north, but yankees laugh and do not understand why the redneck sitting next to them finds it even funnier.
You acquire a red neck by bending your head over a plow all day in the hot sun close to the equator, in order to feed yourself and those you love. Serious stuff, but at the end of the day, it is pretty funny.
We love redneck jokes, but we love it even more in the company of yankees who are puzzled.
Maybe the self deprecating sense of humor is uniquely southern? I don't know. Maybe that's it. But people who define others as southern, or alternately rednecks, can sometimes not appreciate what it takes to be southern.
They should read Florence King, then followup with Flannery O'Conner, maybe see a Tennessee Wiliams play or two at the most, and finish up with M. Mitchell and "Gone with the Wind" then we can talk. And I do mean the book and not the movie, though it is a beautiful movie.
The biggest thing here is, I think and this is my opinion only, southern food is not all that alien, strange or unusual. Looking at it from a global point of view, it is pretty common and this sort of food is enjoyed by more people in the world than it is not. It is very well prepared in the south, however, and thank you very much.
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Wow. Ok, all I can say is wow. I always hated making bread as everytime I have tried making it in the past the payoff has always been sub par and totally not worth all the effort. I decided to try this recipe mainly because it seemed too good to be true.
Yep. Wow. Amazing isn't it?
Lovely loaf of bread, and I so totally know how you felt when you looked upon it.
Wow.
You did a great job there. Qualifies for food porn - now where is my room temp butter?
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Thanks for the information. I find it interesting that in my home state of VA only 60% are Southern identified, but 82% think they live in the South. This parallels my own experience. I think I understand quite a bit about Southern culture although I am not Southern identified. This to me begs an anthropological question: does one have to be Southern in identity or Southern in experience to understand southern food at a cultural level?
It is very interesting, looking at the jump Florida took as well.
It begs another question. Even if you do not self identify as such, could you be a Southerner (redneck)?
If (insert cliche here), you might be a Southerner...
I don't think you need to do either to understand Southern food at a cultural level. I know people from the Islands and South America that understand southern food at a downright visceral level. Even a couple of self identified yankees, though they may not understand what they understand...
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Umm, toss some whipped cream on top and present anyway?
Or, maybe even dump chunks of it into the bottom of a wine glass, then dump the whipped cream on top, then sprinkle the burnt bits on top of that. I would vote for unsweetened whpped cream. The stuff has a very nice color.
Oh, I know. A giant brandy snifter with 70's music on the stereo to set the mood. Sort of a "Treacle Trifle"
Present and look smugly self confident. You meant to do that...
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I've folded all my loaves, so I can't speak to the action motion or the additional flour incoporation. I can agree that slightly drier is better. Like Sparrowsfall, after the first loaf I stopped measuring the liquid except for the initial cup and just go for the shaggy ball effect when doing the initial mix. As I am experimenting with different flours, this seems to make sense.
I've done two rye loaves. The first was 1 part rye flour, 1/2 part spelt, and 1 and 1/2 part bread flour. Very nice, but not enough flavor to make it a decent rye. Still got eaten with butter.
Next rye loaf, and I knew it would be this way but hubby was making "helpful" suggestions, I went with 1 and 1/2 parts rye, 1/2 part spelt, and one part bread flour. WAY to dense. We took out the electric knife to slice! One of those successful failure things though, in that it was better than some deli rye I have eaten as far as flavor is concerned. I did set back an egg sized portion of dough in a crock in the fridge from this one.
Today's mix will be closer to the proportions in the first loaf, with the leftover dough incorporated. Will report back tomorrow, when I am planning beer brats, kraut and salt potatoes for dinner.
I've only used enamel on cast iron or cast iron, but never had a stick. I did have one loaf stick to the towel once, but have made about a dozen so far. Probably because I adjust the hydration by eye and feel, and managed to get that one a little wet. The only difference in the pot was that the cast iron browned on the bottom faster. 20 minutes with the lid on does result in a thinner crust for me, but not as much crackle. Seems like I remember a salt water wash on the loaf when it goes in results in an almost crazed type of finish. Will have to research that and maybe have a go with it. Of the two, I prefer working with the cast iron on enamel.
Am looking forward to Christmas when I have an excuse to crack out more variations, as there will be more bread consumers around. Hubby loves bread, but with just him and me I don't want to overbake.
Anne
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This discussion is reminding me of what a huge expense weddings were for me all through my 20s. I have something like 30 first cousins, and then all my friends starting getting married. Travel, hotels and gifts would eat up my whole budget for a month. It was very out of proportion to the way most of us were living day to day, and what the wedding was costing was definitely a nice down payment on a house in many cases. But it seemed like an inflexible expectation.
No kidding! Then my late 30's and 40's it is my neices, nephews and my own kids!
I was one of 10. Dad was one of 13. Grandma on Mom's side was one of 9, but the age differences in the family made my second cousins like first cousins.
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I was born and raised in Alabama and lived in Atlanta for many years. This is/was the custom for all of my friend's weddings.
Well, you know what a divorce in Alabama, a tornado in Oklahoma, and a hurricane in Florida have in common.
Somebody's gonna loose a doublewide.
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As a northerner, I don't think geography is determinant here. I realize the practicality of cash as a gift, but I will not give it and always hated to receive it (even when I was a poor student). When I receive a gift, I can recall the giver and the occasion years later - and their thoughtfulness.
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As I mentioned earlier in the thread. Wedding guests in Israel give money as a gift. The amount, unless the wedding couple is family or a very close friend, is the amount of what the reception costs per person. In other words, if David and I go to a wedding of a colleague, we write a check for approximately 50-100USD and place it in a wedding card. This is the wedding gift.
We don't have wedding registries here. Most couples use the money to pay for part of their honeymoon or items they need for their apartment. I don't see anything wrong with this. This doesn't mean you can't give them a gift. Some people prefer to buy them a gift in lieu of money, but this is certainly not the norm.
Frankly, I find the Southern US custom of showing off your gifts in your parent's dining room with the gift cards really loathesome.
Mom's dining room table would be the logical place for guests to drop off wrapped gifts. That being said, my white gloved Georgia Grandma would have swooned to see gifts on "display" on anyone's dining room table, much less cards with them identifying the sender. Anyone who would linger around the gifts and checking the cards would be looked at askance, to say the least, and someone would be watching. It would have been considered "trashy" to say the least. I only remember maybe three or four weddings where actual presents were visible at the wedding itself, one in particular - my cousin was marrying a girl from Texas, so we sort of blamed it on cultural differences and politely ignored it. Every once in a while a guest will turn up at the wedding itself with a gift in hand, but it was usually politely received by a relative and given to the bride's mother for safe keeping, locked in the trunk of the car. A real pain in the neck, the last thing a bride needs is to hassle with a gift on her wedding day. But a better alternative than the guest walking around with a wrapped gift in hand all day.
Now I do remember helping a bride that was a close relation organize her gifts at her mother's house, and we did so in the dining room, making sure she had a list to work from for thank you notes later. The gifts were then stored in a back bedroom. They certainly were not on display to the general public or guests. I suppose those that walked through the house might have saw us working on them, or we might have left them there when taking a break or something.
We do tend to give gifts more often than cash in the South in general, considered more "thoughtful" and "personal", but even that has changed over the last 20 years or so. If brides are registered, and that is so easy to do these days, it makes things much easier, but about 75% of my stepdaugher's presents for her wedding last August were either gift cards or cash. Ironically, most of the non cash gifts came from the Groom's relatives in New Jersey. Most of the Georgia/Florida/Virginia folks sent a check, but since my stepdaugher and her new husband had been living together for two years already and had set up housekeeping, so it made better sense.
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"OK, I can't help myself. I will ask what we all want to know. Who pays for the GROOM?"
MottMott, that just cracked me up. I don't know. Perhaps I should plan to slip him 50 bills and whisper out of the side of my mouth "Here ya go, kid, I was thinking of youse. Buy yourself somethin' pretty"
I'm still trying to figure out how we are to pay for my older stepson, who is a member of the wedding party. Will this become a case of "Let's just cut the baby in half?"
As a side note:
Please, someone, tell me this kind of small drama is normal for a family.
Oh absolutely normal. Doesn't make it anymore pleasant, but I think you are well within the range of normal here.
When is the wedding date, by the way? How long will all this be drug out? You do know the drama increases exponentially the closer to the date you get...
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To further elucidate (as my dad would say), if we were to be told to invite whomever we wished (money no object), our list would probably not top 40. 20 is our immediate family (which is obviously quite small) and a couple of very close friends. I would understand fully if we were told that we needed to split the guest count 3 ways, based on how many the hall could hold, but to date, we have not heard a) how many we can invite or b) the cost.
Just saying.
So for now, my plan is:
Sit back, relax and wait for some word from the bride's mom.
Stay tuned for Days of Our Wedding Lives.
Just out of curiosity and for the complete dish, has the groom's mother been hit to pay for her guests, too?
mottmott darling, you are talking to the groom's stepmother (LaurieB, not me). The groom's mother agreed to split the bar at the reception with the groom's father and LaurieB, which was quite generous. I would wonder if the groom's mother is inviting any guests, just to keep things stirred up! Better LaurieB than me, at this point.
LaurieB, please correct me if I am dishing incorrectly.
Stepping back is probably a very good strategy at this point. There may be dynamics unknown and unheard of going on between bride - mom- groom- siblings. As long as there is time, it's cool. When it is all sprung on you at the last minute, then there is a problem. Patience all around, and communication.
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My daughter's favorite was the 50% whole wheat, accidentally 100% hydration, accidentally bulk-fermented for 48 hours--it had the thickest crust, and she liked it.
beccaboo, I just love this post!
Anne
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Is there any possibility the kids are asking you to pay for your guests because you're inviting people thy're not interested in having attend?
I know this is a bit of a rude question, but the topic is so loaded with potential misstep, I figured you likely have thick skin for posting in the first place.
If my parents invited lots of people I didn't care about or for to my wedding (hypothetically) I'd start to shift the balance of responsibility too...
That's an interesting question. But a guest list of 20 out of 200, hardly a hardship upon the bride's family makes, even if all 20 (unlikely) were despised by the bride and her family.
Not my question to answer, of course.
How many are "lots", and if you didn't care for the 180 people the bride's side invited, where would you draw the line? What if some of those people you dislike are members of the wedding party you are committed to entertaining? It can get quite silly. A wedding day SHOULD be set aside as a neutral place to celebrate a union.
We had a JP wedding, and didn't even tell our children we were getting married. It was the most beautiful ceremony I have ever attended.
You just have to do the best you can in these things. It is so hard to walk the chalk line. In my stepdaughter's case, I was pretty much invited not to do anything. Then guess who did everything when the thing happened? In our case, she really thought that everything would magically be perfect when the day came. I guess it was, but if I had the opportunity to get busy and do the work from day one, things would have been even nicer.
As it was, everything was "perfect" and everything that she had "dreamed" of happened thousands of dollars and much sweat later. I love her and my new son in law, but it is hard for me to understand why people choose to do things the hard way.
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beef stew-
Chuck cut into cubes (sometimes the family size package precut is cheaper than the whole roast)
Oh man, this is great stuff! Stew beef and onions braised all afternoon, lots and lots of yellow onions, served over rice with some veg on the side.
I would either buy the whole chuck and cut it up, or buy the stew beef precut. It is the same meat. I know that for a fact.
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JGM, you really are doing a wonderful thing.
We did a "chicken fettucinni" on a budget back in the day, that was really mostly bechamel, leftover chicken, frozen broccoli and tarragon with a very little hard cheese thrown in.
I echo Anne's sentiments, jgm. If I sounded cranky in my questions before, it was from wanting to be sure that paths were clear enough in all ways so that this *would* work in good ways for you both.
Anne's chicken base recipe above might also be used wrapped inside crepes for a lovely and still inexpensive presentation. Instead of broccoli, mushrooms are also a tasty co-lingerer. Chicken crepes sided with a steaming mound of white fluffy rice. . .(!) Yum.
Yep, and her penchant for chicken and noodles over mashed potatoes would be sated as well with the crepes and rice, I think. Mushrooms are great in this sort of thing. Or, even dare I say it, a handful of frozen spinach?
Anne
(who has been known to make a whole meal out of just plain buttered and salted egg noodles just because she wanted to, but was being very naughty. Although the time or two I soft scrambled an egg over it helps)
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JGM, you really are doing a wonderful thing.
The alfredo sauce lends itself to frozen brocolli tossed in at the end very well, or leftover chicken meat from that stewed chicken you have planned, with a bit of garlic. Toss in some tarragon maybe, if she is looking for flavorful. If she doesn't qualify for WIC, she may find cheese a dear thing in her budget. We did a "chicken fettucinni" on a budget back in the day, that was really mostly bechamel, leftover chicken, frozen broccoli and tarragon with a very little hard cheese thrown in.
Make sure to show her how the same concepts translate across food from different cultures. White sauce by any other name is gravy. I would also suggest an introduction to Wondra. Instant flour is relatively cheap, and almost foolproof. Wouldn't want to discourage her with those nasty lumps.
Good luck, and best wishes.
Anne
Canned milk is a reasonable substitute for heavy cream, and something she should have in her pantry anyway for hard times. Butter is nearly as cheap as margarine if you are careful and buy on sale, so encourage her not to cheap out on that one.
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Westphalia Ham from Konneman's Sausage.
http://www.koenemannsausage.com/
Both for my MIL and DH. Because they wanted some. Now, I have entirely selfish reasons for ordering.
Had them throw in a little Snicken Speck and some cold cuts last year. Lovely.
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Mine is a bit 70s retro. Antique copper molds for tarts, gelatin salads etc. My prize is a group of 8 very old tin lined tart molds with fruit, but I have the stereotypical lobster, flying fish and clam shell (gigantic, I will probably never use it) as well as a rabbit and a rooster. Picked up at flea markets and yard sales, and a couple from ebay when you used to be able to find deals there.
Other than that, two framed watercolors of pineapples.
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We've devised a better way to make grits the star of holiday entertaining: Start by making individual rounds with quick-cooking grits and Parmesan cheese. They're as easy as drop cookies. Then put out a variety of toppings, and invite everyone to create their own combinations. Voilà! An interactive grits bar.
These look an awful lot like arepas, a corn-based round bread made in northern South America. I suppose it is easier for most Americans to find grits in the store. They do sound good!
I would think that there would be no problem finding Masa Harina in Dallas for Arepas. This reminds me more of fried grits than arepas, though granted they are baked in this recipe. I think of Arepas as more akin to a cornbread sandwhich, and boy are they good.
Help Me Define the "South"
in Southeast: Dining
Posted
Well, in a historical sense, southern culture is very young, and borrows from other cultures both indigenous (native american) and imported (europe and africa). The acadians did not arrive in the Louisiana area until the 1760's, a little over 250 years ago. No one argues that the culture in New Orleans is not Southern, or that the influence brought there by the Acadians was not significant.
(Long, boring post to follow)
Key West is unusual, in that its location between the Florida straights and Gulf of Mexico made it the "Gibraltor" of the West. Perry planted the American flag on Key West in 1822, a scant 60 years after the Acadians arrived in Louisiana, 17 years after the Lousiana Purchase, and 23 years before Texas became a state. Fort Zachary Taylor was built in the 1840s - 1860s, and was the reason that Key West remained in US hands during the Civil War when Florida seceeded. Fort Zachary Taylor was instrumental in the successful naval blockade of the Confederacy.
As far as the native population is concerned, the Conchs were the decendants of loyalists to the UK who fled to the Bahama's from the Southeastern US after the Revolutionary War.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_West,_Florida
From the site:
"Many of the residents of Key West were immigrants from the Bahamas, known as Conchs who arrived in increasing numbers after 1830. Many were sons and daughters of Loyalists who fled to the nearest crown soil during the American Revolution.[7] In the 20th Century many residents of Key West started referring to themselves as "Conchs", and the term is now generally applied to all residents of Key West. Some residents use the term "Conch" to refer to a person born in Key West, while the term "Fresh Water Conch" refers to a resident not born in Key West but who has lived in Key West for seven years or more.[8] However, the true original meaning of Conch applies only to someone with European ancestory that immigrated from the Bahamas.[9] It is said that when a baby was born, the family would put a conch shell on a pole in front of their home.
Many of the Bahama immigrants live in an area of Old Town next to the Truman Annex called "Bahama Village."
Major industries in Key West in the early 19th century included fishing, salt production, and most famously salvage. In 1860 wrecking made Key West the largest and richest city in Florida and the wealthiest town per capita in the U.S. A number of the inhabitants worked salvaging shipwrecks from nearby Florida reefs, and the town was noted for the unusually high concentration of fine furniture and chandeliers which the locals used in their own homes after salvaging them from wrecks."
End quote.
It's location on the trade routes between the gulf ports and east coast brought a great southern influence to the Island. Flaglers railroad did not in fact "find" Key West, so much as it reopened a community after the devastation of the Civil War and created another boom.
The architecture is almost identical to that found in old parts of both Charleston, SC and New Orleans - and that makes sense. Victorian styling, porches on the side to catch the breeze, light colors. It is missing the african influenced slave population and plantation mentality that colors the history of much of the south. Ironically, that is generally found in the immigrants to Key West from Cuba, where slave labor was used on the sugar plantations there extensively.
The orginal population of Key West, were of course, Native Americans. They were pretty much wiped out.
Beans, rice, BBQ and sugar cane along with the key limes and wonderful seafood. Bring your cotton shirt and white linen suit (if you must wear a suit) as well.
Sorry for the long post.
Anne