annecros
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Posts posted by annecros
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Anne, I grew up with a fictive grandmother who was definitely a Southerner. She was a Baptist from Mississippi, and she's the one who introduced me to soul food (aka Southern food) like sweet potato pie, cobbler, shortbread, collard greens, etc. You're right; there's no question that there is a type of Southern cooking that is recognized by white and black Southerners alike. This New Yorker knows it.
There's nothing like a Grandma - fictive, foster or functional - to tie the heart and the hearth together.
I'm glad you had that experience. Deep down, many of us Southerner's are just defending our Grandma's and Grandaddy's, all of our Grandma's and Grandaddy's.
Anne
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I was unable to make another after my first, very successful, loaf due to not being around over the last few weekends. (Went to Atlantic City last weekend....luckily did not lose too much money) My plan this weekend is to mix up a dough tonight to start the initial rise (just the regular recipe with added salt). Save some of the dough for future batches. Bake the original off tomorrow night. Add the saved dough to a new batch tomorrow night to bake off on Saturday. Making another batch on Saturday to bake off on Sunday (with taken off dough from the previous one). Does that make sense? Maybe add some WW to the second or the third batch. Will that work? Should have enough bread for Christmas Eve and Christmas day dinners.
I used my LC 5 1/2 qt dutch oven for the first loaf but have recently purchased a Lodge preseasoned 5 qt cast iron that I plan to use now. Should I do anything different?
Sounds like you are right there with the rest of us!
Hope it all comes out well for you.
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Sorry, I have not tried it, but am intrigued. Please describe.
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Even when a Southerner does not participate in the "tall glass of water" ritual, they usually know what it means when someone turns the phrase, and understands the intent and meaning if not the origin of the phrase. Sure things change, they always do and always will.
Re-arguing the War of Northern Aggression (and the stimulus behind the seccession of the southern states was complex and not as one dimensional as one would think sometimes) is silly. The CSA lost. But there is no arguing that the Civil War was, and still is, a huge determining factor in creating the subset of the population that is Southern. Both by those who identify themselves as Southern, and those who reside outside of the South who identify others as Southern.
The food is really just food. Its the shared ritual within a group that makes it Southern, and associates those people termed Southern by themselves and others, that makes it Southern Food. One of the most Southernlike experiences I have ever had was in California. I was eating crab. I would have never identified them as Southern, and they certainly wouldn't self identify as such. But they certainly pegged me as Southern, and without a smirk.
Southern African Americans are just as Southern as Southern "white" people, as are Southern Hispanics, and Southern Native Americans etc., etc. I think that complexity in the culture, and the interaction within subgroups, is one of the things very nice about the South. It bothers me when race is interjected into the Southern debate, but it inevitably is interjected and almost always by those who are not Southern. It only serves to feed inaccurate, blanket, negative preconceptions and stereotypes of the South, and I would like to think we would be long be past that, but I suppose that the sins of a minority of the Southern population many generations ago is the stigmata we must bear for a few more generaions. The majority of the population of my home town would probably self identify as African American. Each one would probably self identify as Southern as well. My parent's, grandparent's, and extended family's households were honestly color blind. Believe it or not. It would have been rude, and just plain wrong, not to be.
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Oh thank you thank you thank you all for the time and care spent to post all these wonderful experiences . Im cookin a 16 pounder on sun and a 9 pounder on mon. I was wondering if anybody has ever herb encrusted a ribby roast and if so how do you cook it differently . I would assume just the same without searing ........thanks in advance.
I've done some dried herby stuff in a rub and it was fine, no experience with fresh herbs here in this application.
awesome , did you just roast it low and slow Im kinda worried that the herbs will burn and taste bitter and with these gifts from heaven known as a rib roast I dont want to make any bad decisions. Im using all dried herbs save for rosemary some salt and oil.
oh ribby roast your my favorite friend.When I used the herby rub, I was smoking so it was low and slow and no sear.
Oven roasting, I stick with plain old salt-pepper-minced garlic-olive oil. I do it way ahead, and let the surface dry open in the fridge overnight at least.
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Like a lot of things, homemade cream cheese is better, but spoils you for the times you run out of hours in a day to get it made in time for whatever it is you wanted to use it for!
My recipe is similar to annecros's... only I use a mixture of whole milk & heavy cream (in equal amounts,) buttermilk, and rennet. I also found, after making it with store-bought whole milk and "regular" (read: low or non-fat) buttermilk several times, that it is FAR superior made with fresh raw milk and full-fat buttermilk. Granted, most folks will probably have a really hard time coming by the former, but I'd definitely suggest trying to find the full-fat buttermilk even if you can't possibly hope to get the raw whole milk.
The only thing is, this doesn't keep well, or (sadly, in my experience) freeze terribly well, either. But it makes terrific cheesecakes and herbed or otherwise flavored spreads for a quick appetizer when there's a crowd. It tastes different enough from the stuff in the silver foil that such dips don't taste like you just stirred something into cream cheese, either! My favorite is to flake dry smoked salmon into the cheese and whip it up with some black pepper, then put on toasted bagel or pita bites and top with capers. MMmm. But... it works in any recipe I've found so far that calls for the gummier store-bought stuff.
Tell me about it. I just put a gallon of buttermilk in the oven for cheesecake and my smoked salmon platter and a couple of other small things for Christmas. Definitely time consuming.
Do you utilize the whey? If so, how? I'm going to have quite a bit of it soon. Maybe for the liquid in my no-knead bread? Have you ever frozen it?
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"Heirloom Albacore"
Sounds like a can of Starkist I've got leftover from the hurricane supplies.
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Being from the South, it is not difficult for me to relate anything back to food!
First I'll go all Wiki on ya:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic
From the entry:
"An ethnic group is a human population whose members identify with each other, usually on the basis of a presumed common genealogy or ancestry (Smith, 1986). Recognition by others as a separate ethnic group, and a specific name for the group, also contribute to defining it. Ethnic groups are also usually united by certain common cultural (behavioural, linguistic and ritual or religious) traits. In this sense, an ethnic group is also a cultural community. Processes that result in the emergence of such a community are summarized as ethnogenesis."
Food is foundational to the Southern culture and cultural practices. It is one of the ethnic markers, after our accent probably, that those on the outside use to identify Southerners as an ethnic group. The "tall glass of water" example cited earlier is a good, simple way of demonstrating this. The glass of water offered to a stranger is more than just a glass of water in the Southern culture. There is a ritual involved and expected behaviour. Using the phrase "tall glass of water" in a sentence has a cultural meaning that other members of the ethnic group immediately recognize and acknowledge, even if it is just with a smile. The food ritual has become linguistic code that remains in the language even when air conditioning has eliminated the need to keep everybody hydrated for survival purposes.
If you want to get really complex, we could talk about the intertwining of food and religion in the South - ritualized food preparation and consumption at funerals, Dinner on the grounds after church. Family reunions are loaded with not only great food - but ritual. "Aunt Grace is asking for you," will send a 60 year old man running to the chair where his elderly aunt is holding court. He'll take a knee, hold her hand, smile and greet her respectfully. The first thing he will ask is if she needs some more tea, or if he can bring her a piece of pie.
That others recognize us as Southern is just as important as our self identification as such in creating an ethnic group. Even you identify a discreet group as Southern, and found a common characteristic that you could use to "mark" them! The Ashkenazic are recognized not only by themselves, but even by the larger ethnic group that they are a subgroup of, because of cultural differences and shared traits.
Food is great ambassador for any peoples, and says a lot about the shared heritage enjoyed by the group.
Now, how this came to be in the south is the result mostly of the physical interaction in the environment of the South (where most of the food belongs) - but much has to be said of the "active" ethogenesis required to unite the South pre-civil war, and the hardships of the civil war and after. The iconography is everywhere - statues, schools, plaques, cemetarys with CSA tombstones. A billion little girls named Bonny (the Bonny Blue Flag, the real standard of the Confederacy) and all those little Lees and Beauregards (both Generals were West Point graduates). In order to survive after the civil war, people had to band together, feed one another, and be kind to one another.
All in my opinion, of course. Excuse me now, while I go fix some biscuits for hubby's breakfast.
Edit to add: My husband just pointed out the "glass of water" concept that carries over into social and reproductive custom, as in "She's a tall drink of water." said admiringly (and quietly so as not to offend) as the lady strolls by two southern guys on the prowl.
Leave it to him.
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Oh thank you thank you thank you all for the time and care spent to post all these wonderful experiences . Im cookin a 16 pounder on sun and a 9 pounder on mon. I was wondering if anybody has ever herb encrusted a ribby roast and if so how do you cook it differently . I would assume just the same without searing ........thanks in advance.
I've done some dried herby stuff in a rub and it was fine, no experience with fresh herbs here in this application.
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It's Christmas. Do the whole thing.
I'm going to end up doing two prime ribs for separate dinners over Christmas. I have one in the freezer that is 6 bones and about 14 lbs. I'm getting another one on Sat from our favourite steakhouse and the chef asked me if I wanted a whole one. "How big is a whole one?" I enquired. "Oh about 22 lbs" he said. Um, perhaps a half would do nicely. Aww, I know I'm going to. Can't resist. After all, it's Christmas!
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Here in Texas there is a loooooong tradition of offering a stranger water, especially in Summer, nothing be said even. We say, "Yes Ma'am", and, "No Sir"; and, "Please" and, "Thank you". We can't function without these pleasantries. We wave our hand to each other and say "Hello", rude not to. Also, one offers assistance when another needs it. In the countryside, the offer of food from the kitchen (same with the Mexican and German culture here), "breaking bread and sharing beans" is a very important part of human relations.h
I
And why? The long Summer's heat? Natural openness and friendlyness? Yes. That, and we KNOW that what goes around, comes around.
There's nothing wrong with offering a stranger a glass of water on a hot day.
There is no denying the use of words in the South. And you are right, in the rare occaision when you are not verbally acknowledged as existing, you are non verbally acknowledge with eye contact and a nod. Yes, it is rude if you don't do it. It is a shame that the service industry has to explain to some young people that when you are within 10 feet of another human being, you should acknowledge existence of that human being. I was fortunate enough to learn by example.
Southerners are so stigmatized as slow speaking, pig headed, prejudiced and ignorant. It is just as insulting to a Southerner, as it would be to anyone else who is judged solely on the location of their birth. Sure there are bad people in the South. You don't have to tell a Southerner that, we tend to be brutally honest with one another to tell the truth. But being Southern and caucasion doesn't mean you are a bad person. That's just silly and unfair, no matter how a person would choose to defend it. Prejudice is prejudice.
'Course, I just fell off the turnip truck, ya know.
Southerners are prone to that too, playing dumb in order to gain the advantage. It works. It works very well. The self deprecating sense of humor is mostly just dissembling for whomever you are interacting with in order to have time to size them up.
I understand that we speak in code to many who are not Southern - and we seem to catch on to each other's jokes and double meanings quickly, laugh and move on to other topics. That's because we do. It is not out of mean spiritedness, it is simply a matter of community. We know who we are and what we are, and we know it for a fact. We can take it when others think inappropriate thoughts, and even when they verbalize them, and are dignified enough to politely overlook ignorance. Sometimes. If you have been put in your place by a true southern lady, it generally takes anywhere from a few minutes to a couple of hours to figure out you've had the facts of life explained to you - sometimes days. But you never forget it. I know I haven't when the facts have been explained to me.
I would feel welcome if you offered me a tall glass of cold water. I would thank you very much, and ask how you and yours are doing, and am certain I would enjoy passing a bit of the day with you. I'm certain that you would offer me another when I was finished, and that I would politely decline and go on my way, unless something vital or very interesting were being discussed. I'd know where to find another glass of water in the future if I was in need.
That's being Southern. Southerner's understand the literal metaphor in a tall, cold glass of water offered without request or hesitation, and are appreciative of it and graciously accept it, and offer the same consideration to others.
That's just being human, and touching another human life. I have seen it done day in and day out, across every racial-economic-educational-social divide you can imagine. And it happened in the South, and happens there every day.
Facts are facts.
And the food is varied, carefully prepared, and just plain good!
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Anyway, it explains the commonality and community of the front porch and cold glass of sweet tea. It's not hard to find a tall glass of water in the south if you're thirsty.
A tall glass of water is what's offered if the intention is to hopefully clear off that front porch right quick without being straightforward rude. A cold glass of sweet tea means, sit on down for a spell, honey.
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Never did see any of those Southern women that were supposed to resemble shrinking violets, either, though I kept my eye out.
Not a single one to be found, anywhere. Scratch a shrinking violet, and you will find a tiger lily.
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I've always done the blast at 500 and then oven off method, because it works for me. I am open for suggestions though, and like to keep an open mind, so this topic is of interest to me.
I did some work over the year with a beef company, and my friend there just sent us a 17 pound Certified Angus rib roast for Christmas. I keep opening the fridge and patting it on its little butt - we call him Junior and I am considering hanging his own Christmas stocking for him. He's almost become part of the family. He's swimming around in his cryovac, because personally I don't care for the "game" I detect in dry aged beef. I do intend to season it and give it 24 hours uncovered in the fridge before roasting though.
I certainly will not french the bones. The plate of bones on the table is a big family favorite, and "Deviled" bones for lunch the next day I consider a real treat, if there are any left. I agree that there is a lot of great meat there.roba
I am wondering how many ribs to roast though. I am only serving 7 to 8 people. I am thinking of taking the two bones from the small ends for steaks later for hubby and myself, but it almost hurts to think of desecrating Junior.
Will have to mediate on the subject...
The only place I've ever seen anything that big is in a meat cooler in a market before cutting! Will it fit in your oven? What do you plan to cook it in?
In terms of serving people - I made a 3 rib roast for Chanukah for me and my husband - almost 6 pounds. We got 4 meals out of it - and lots of fatty leftovers for our back yard critters (all of them - even the birds - like beefy/fatty stuff). So that's about .75 pound per person per serving. If you're serving 8 - that would mean you need about 6 pounds plus some for people who like ends/not rare pieces - people who are big eaters - plus some leftovers.
So unless you are really really big on leftovers - or will be having lots of people to help you with leftovers - I'd cut junior about in half - maybe 60/40 - serve the larger half for Christmas and freeze the rest for another nice winter meal. Robyn
It's the whole primal, still cryovaced from the slaughterhouse, dated and stamped. Junior was "harvested" on December 2. Love those guys, and they have honestly treated me like a sister. That is actually on the rather small side for this primal. Believe me, they have cookies and homemade limoncello coming out of their ears right now.
I've already done the measuring and yes the whole thing will fit in my oven with room for circulation. I'm thinking the whole thing, maybe, just to say I've done it. I have smoked two of the big boys on our big smoker, but never oven roasted one this big in the oven.
Two kids in college, poor, big eaters and the girlfriend of one and the boyfriend of the other. The other mid twenties and poor with my new son-in-law, who are also big eaters. They all bring stuff to carry leftovers home with them. Still debating taking the two ribs on the small end for hubby and myself for New Years when we will be all by our lonesome. And things will be quiet.
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Those are VERY nice. Thanks for the link.
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I've eaten a lot of cakes (Red Velvet and Carrot) that have cream cheese icing that sat out for a couple of days. Never even tasted off, in fact I sort of prefer it the next day.
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I find it kind of bizarre that white Southerners seem so apt to identify their ancestors as "Southern" (which gets changed to "American" by the Census Bureau), whereas people in other regions are what I would call more honest about their ancestry. What do you think accounts for this?
The north/south phenomena plays itself out in other countries, too, with some similar results.
One theory I just read (in an academic text, strangely enough) is that in every thing the human mind applies itself to, there must be an "upper" part and a "lower" part. The "upper" part being thought the "better" in the overall conceptualization, the "lower" part having been created by the mind for the singular purpose of segregation of "us" and the "others", making the "others" into something dangerous or different which of course self-mirrors the "better" upper into a reality of a sort (at least within the mind).
Once this labelling occurs of upper/lower (even if it is geographically-based) the thing that has been named lower has a certain burden to bear. One way of bearing a collective burden is to embrace the definition, the naming, as a group, and bear it proudly rather than trying to apologize or hide from the name. Humor and defiance are then used by the group within the ideologic structure that has been created, and an identity group, a culture independent of other things, has been created.
So Southerners self-identify as an ethnic group that they have created due to oppression, regardless of ancestry. Makes sense, pre and post civil war and all. Someone else pointed out to me that Jewish people share the same sort of self deprecating sense of humor.
I think it was a prominent southern African American who pointed out that "In the North, they don't care how high you get, as long as you don't get close. In the South, they don't care how close you get, as long as you don't get high." High as in "uppity" and self-important, rather than high as in sucessful.
I suppose you would have to speak the language to get the twist.
Wish I could remember who said that.
Anyway, it explains the commonality and community of the front porch and cold glass of sweet tea. It's not hard to find a tall glass of water in the south if you're thirsty.
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I think the presalt helps a lot with the initial sear. I wasn't as pleased with my crust until I started presalting in the fridge.
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If you can find good French Bread, just slice, spread with a little high quality unsalted butter, and sprinkle with the salts.
SB (not much better fare anywhere!
)I do this all the time. My kids don't understand why I insist on unsalted butter, but then salt my bread and butter.
I think it would be a great way to simply showcase the salts and make them the star. Other stuff could be served to fill in.
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What Anne said! Yeah, it's all about attitude. A variation of the old maxim, "never anything mechanical know that you're in a hurry." Ignoring/forgetting and letting the second rise go too long gave me my best results yet.stir it up (but casually, so that the dough will not think it is important or something) with a wooden spoon, cover it with the lid and ignore it.One of my best buddies who does the sourdough thing comments (only somewhat jokingly) about the codependency relationship he has with the colony on his countertop... Gotta let 'em know who's boss! They have numerical superiority, but we're bigger! And we know how to use tools. Who's at the top of the food chain, after all--them or us?
The 'tude has a lot to do with it, I think. The little yeasties seem to get grumpy when you interrupt them with noise and light while they are procreating. Some of the best bakers I know are the most nonchalant.
Now, flowers and vegetables require constant thought and communion. I speak to them regularly...
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I've started keeping logs of all the variations I'm making of this recipe. Latest one was the AP flour/semolina/rye suggested upthread (by whom, I can't remember - blame it on hormonal memory lapse - blame everything on hormones). At any rate, it was good, but a little too moist and heavy for the way I want this bread to be. What did I expect, adding rye, one might ask. True. But I think I'll keep rye flour for the pumpernickels and similar breads.
I am become more and more curious to know how summer weather will change the way we handle this recipe. I've found that allowing the first rise to happen in the fridge makes the bread heavier, even if the second rise occurs at room temperature. But come summertime, my kitchen will be much too hot and the dough would overproof - so either back to the fridge, or keep watching it and discover how many less hours' proof will suffice.
Miriam
I'm worried about the Summer as well. I have another two months of a pretty consistent high 60s at night and upper 70s during the day, then about March it will get warmer fast and the windows will shut and the air will be on until next October.
My starter on the counter is giving me a nice sour flavor already. Five loaves in, and number six mixed up this afternoon.
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I find it kind of bizarre that white Southerners seem so apt to identify their ancestors as "Southern" (which gets changed to "American" by the Census Bureau), whereas people in other regions are what I would call more honest about their ancestry. What do you think accounts for this?
I think in most cases its muttiness. My ancestors included Griners, Prestons, Mayos, Hills, Wilsons, two we think creek native american ladies who married out of an orphanage in the Carolinas (I am descended from both sisters through two lines), Gilliams, Levy's, Faircloths, Cohens, Hatchers, Gilliams, O'Connels, Boulangers, Nortons, Moores (that's an interesting bunch), and there is even an Arroyo back there somewhere, etc. etc.
If I were to try to be absolutely honest about my ancestry, I would say that I am mostly anglo-saxon originating in the British Isles, but to be even more honest I'm a mutt, considering some of those last names were anglicized from other older family names. As I am related to about half the population of Georgia/Florida/Alabama - I would say that is the norm rather than the exception.
The white gloved ladies of the south are some of the most dedicated and thorough geneologists around - the Mormons being the big dog - but with so many influences and so much intermarriage between ethnicities it is easier to identify with the new region rather than the old world, if that is what you are getting at. Remember that the South opened up rather early on after the "discovery" of the Americas by Europeans, and was utilized as both a penal colony and a refuge for those who were running away either from persecution or prosecution. Some of these people wanted to disappear, I'm sure. Add indentured servants and slaves, and you have one of the oldest melting pots in the country.
It is very evident in the cooking techniques and food choices as well. The one element that seems to be mising is an Asian influence, but you will find some of that in the caribbean and the southern port cities that traded with the caribbean.
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OK, someone brought up the difference between "jus" and "au jus" so bear with me! I am one of those (apparent) idiots who actually really enjoys the jus served with the prime rib at restaurants, so how can I make it at home. I'm of the "low and slow" camp and love doing a rib at home but there just isn't enough jus to share. I've looked up recipes that suggest low sodium beef broth but....ewww. How do restaurants do it?
There is always the French's packet! And if you are an idiot for loving "jus", there are at least two of us here.
Seriously though, I have some brisket trimmings and I think an oxtail or two in the freezer I am going to put in a low oven to boost my "jus" output. I'm doing yorkshire pudding as well, so I require lots and lots and lots of fat.
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Is all US beef just beef? Here (at least in the better butchers) you can choose which breed, length of aging, and they will tell you the feed, age, provenance and history of the animal. THis is partly because of the better record keeping following the BSE scare
Local Dexter, grass fed killed at 30 months and aged for 4 weeks for me.
I've commented on this before in a similar thread - Here the breed, animal husbandry and aging are the key factors - marbling doesn't really come into what is considered 'top quality' meat, maybe it's the lack of a steak house culture. Is it also the feed? I've never seen cuts in the UK with the level of marbling I've seen in some of these meat porn shots. I don't really know - not really a beef guy.
Out of interest, is the Prime grading done cut by cut? And do only 'prime' cuts get this grading?
The grading is done on the carcass, and each of the primals is "rolled" or stamped. The grading process takes into account several inspection points on each animal.
Another interesting point, all the packers refer to it as "harvesting" rather than slaughtering. Grading is done at the harvesting point, after the cow has been skinned and gutted.
Oh, and grass fed beef is leaner than grain fed (usually corn) beef. Now, there is room within "grain fed" for several different formulations. Grain fed tastes better to me, but is brutal for the animal and entirely unnatural. I think tere is a thread here somewhere on the book "A Carnivores Delimma" that discusses the situation in great deatail. The majority of beef in the US is grain fed. Even if it is started on grass, it is generally "fed off" at the end of its life on a grain preparation of some sort.
Help Me Define the "South"
in Southeast: Dining
Posted · Edited by annecros (log)
No need to apologize. We just have different perspectives.
Now, how do you feel about fried chicken and collard greens? What about the theory that if you parked enough pickup trucks loaded with coolers of beer in the parking lot of the United Nations, and put some pork and chicken on the grill out there, all the world's problems would be solved on a long afternoon?
I've seen a lot of fueds resolved holding down the bed of a pickup truck...