GordonCooks

Another thing to consider - Jean-Andre Charial is such a high profile person. In addition to the restaurant/hotel - He has a very successful boutique in St Remy and also sells his product at the chains of Pierre Deux boutiques. I would think premium artisanal growers would be furious - I can only imagine what occurs with lower profile persons.

Anyone carefully reading this thread can see that her understanding of what I meant by growers is obvious. My current interest is centering on the Société de la Vallée des Baux, and some other maker/growers/bottlers/marketers selling alleged premium product. Just how wide spread is this type of thing for it to make international news. I've always said where there is smoke, there is fire. You wrote: Would you be interested in sharing these for the good of those not involved? I look forward to further discussing this and presenting some thought provoking issues. I'm also really interested in where the differences exist between counterfeit product in the french market and so-called "touristy Vanity" products.

Is this entire diatribe is over the term "growers" rather than "producers"? I promise to not cut and paste anymore blurbs from California Olive oil newsletters when entering text due to the fact a moderator asked me not to post a link by itself. If there is anything I learned from my first marriage - it's this You're absolutely right about everything and I'm wrong about everything.

We’re probably agreeing on more than you think I’m discussing Vin du Pays and you’re focusing on Grand Cru My understanding of the French olive oil industry is that AOC certified extra-virgin product is 100% French and vigorously enforced - something I've understand and have never refuted. Not all Olive Oils consumed are extra virgin in France – my understanding is that premium virgin grades and pomace grades are supplemented with French product graded lower than extra virgin. House branded cooking olive oil bottled for mass consumption even state may not 100% French product. (I'm roughly translating the difference between mis en bouteille & produit du/de ) The chain (Auchan, Carrefour?) in particular is whom I’m referring. I may be mistaken on the store – but there had to be over 150 samples of various oils specifically branded that were being compared to Wegman’s new premium. A couple of the labels clearly state may not be 100% French product (my French may be bad but not that bad) the labels clearly state may not be 100% French product. Look at last years 2004/2005 IOOC commodity report – production versus consumption – that’s proof positive if there was any. My source is a product manager for one of the largest supermarket chains in the country, Wegman’s – If hers is not an expert opinion – then I am at a loss. I don’t think I can make myself any clearer. She’s back from Europe in 6 days –I will defer to her expertise. edit sp

I'm afraid you are. You are trying to mess up words. "Olive oils sold in France" is not the same thing as "olive oils produced in France". You did begin by mentioning "growers". Enough said. Not full of BS? Well I think you're the one who has to prove it in this case. If you can prove to me that olive oils produced in France by local growers are not 100% produced in France, this is the time to do it, for that is exactly what you said. That would be an interesting revelation and I am sure the DGCCRF (Direction générale de la concurrence, de la consommation et de la répression des fraudes) would find it very useful. If your sources are so well informed, you'll have no difficulty bringing the proof here. Or maybe — get out of the mess by admitting your first statement was poorly stated? ← What are the 10 most popular olive oils sold in france currently? Your position is that no french grown olive oil is ever mixed with imported product - If you provide me with the names of the companies (mainly because I don't speak french) - I'll do all the legwork.

I think that will prove daunting because, as I mentioned, 100% French Olive oils are not mass-marketed; they are generally produced on an artisanal basis and only distributed locally. One of the producers that I am familiar with is Alziari in Nice. I have been to his shop, and the oil is available at some specialty grocers in NYC, such as Zabar's. But I have no idea if this is a "best-seller". (It is a lovely Olive oil, though). Web Site: http://www.alziari.com.fr/eng/mill.htm ← I have an Aliziari tin in cupboard currently next to bottles of Lungarotti, Pope Creek Ranch, and Maussane-Les Apilles. I'm taking exception to the statement that 100% of Olive Oils sold in France use 100% French product - If I'm full or BS? prove it

If an oil sold in France is marked "AOC", it is not only all French but entirely from the specific region that is marked on the bottle. These oils are not top sellers because they are made in small quantities, mostly available at the producers and the artisanal shops. Here is one source: http://www.nice-art.com/huile/champsoleil.htm The French supermarkets mostly sell blended oils from Italy and Spain-- the French producers are, for the most part, much smaller. The French climate is such that only a small portion of France is conducive to growing Olive trees. Italy and Spain have much warmer climates overall. ← I understand the rules regarding the AOC designations are I am very familiar with the rules restricting wine production. The point I've been trying to make is: There is nothing wrong with blending oils from whatever provenance if the end product is good. Being accused of using foreign made oils in french blends is not duplicitious. The Chef was NOT manufacturing his own olive oil but lending his name to a product. The Chef was using a lower grade product not subject to such stingent rules and regulations. Selling an inferior grade of olive oil as a premium french (italian,spanish) product is bad that's all BUT I'm still interested in finding out the current best selling french olive oils

That's good info - Something I've always meant to ask

The last bottle of 96 Hermitage Blanc I had displayed a little herbal edge - something not noticed in previous bottles -probably an anomaly.

I beg your pardon? ← Please tell me what the current top selling brands of blended French olive oils currently being sold in France. I'd be interested to see if all these brands are using 100% french product.

We deviated from our normal varietals/vintage to have a night of whatever was laying around our cellars 2003 Beaux Freres – Upper Terrace Very rich with prominent stone fruit, root beer? and noticeable tannins - good stuff 1996 JL Chave Hermitage Blanc Thick and viscous - wet stones, citrus with ripe pear - more like the my previous bottles, not as green as my last. 1999 Quilceda Creek Meritage Typical Washington - Loads of blueberries, cocoa, and cedar - not as much depth as the Cabernet but good 2001 Drouhin Grands Echezeaux Way too young but the tannins relaxed after 4 hours - seemed very balanced with the fruit, spice, florals playing equal parts - a nice, lingering finish (I'm no expert on young burgundies but I liked it a lot) 1991 Silver Oak – Boony’s Vineyard Prominent bell pepper became overpowering after 30 mins 1986 Robert Mondavi Reserve Tired 2003 Belles Soeurs Pinot Noir Pork fat and vanilla - Cherries and stone fruit - not very feminine at all 1999 Antinori Tignanello Way too young but typical spice, cherries, earth, and leather 1999 Chateau Fortia Thin and insipid 2000 DuBoeuf Moulin-a-Vent, Prestige Excellent - Dark berries and bitter chocolate, dense mouth feel - good stuff 1988 Chateau Suduiraut Sweet but one dimensional – not the expected tropical flavors. Possibly very young but not as full-bodied or lush as other 88s I’ve had – I’d like some opinions on this one 1988 Dolce Never had before - Honey sweet but not much fruit - tasted very Puttonyos to me 1988 Maximin Grunhauser Beerenauslese Corked, first time I’ve ever had a half bottle of dessert wine do that.

Please do not shift from your original statement, please don't twist my own (I never wrote "everybody is doing it", actually you're the one writing that) and answer my initial question. Spanish olive oil can be good. But that is beside the point. The point is purity of origin in a context of AOC (appellation d'origine contrôlée). And, outside of the AOC regulations, how exactly domestic olive oils are classified, denominated, tested and commercialized in France, a subject about which you don't seem to know much about. I am aware that my tone is somewhat offensive and I'm sorry for this, but I do feel offended on the behalf of many French producers and their families whose honesty and dedication to quality is plainly attacked through your insinuations. Saying that the way I (according to you) "detest any scrutiny and defer blame" makes you "rethink just how widespread is this type of thing" is quite a harsh way of implying that I might be trying to cover any dishonest practices of French oil producers. I think you have some nerve and it is my turn then to wonder why it seems so important to you to spread the rumor that French olive oil producers do massive blending as a rule. And, may I add, I have not seen any scrutiny in your post, only innuendo and imprecise accusation. You did write : "I'm told be more informed sources that adding olive oil that comes from outside of France is typical. Since olive production is so tentuous, the growers usually use anywhere from 20% to 50% purchased oils in their blends." So, what are your "more informed sources"? You haven't answered this question at all, and you even keep on stating that French olive oil is massively blended with oils from other origins as if this were a solid fact. But unless your "more informed sources" prove to be serious and tried, I will consider this nefarious BS, because indeed there is no solid fact of this sort. I have studied the subject of European olive oils pretty closely. Time sure has passed since 1956 and though limited, French olive oil production is doing allright, and please note that it is no mass production and is not designed to be. Premium olive oils in France are not blended, or they would never get, or keep, the AOC, which, in order to be kept year after year, requires regular testing to be done. I am not saying that a few examples of fraud cannot exist, as was the case with the SVB and Baumanière, but that is what they would be — fraud. By no means a common practice. ← Give me a list of the top ten blended oils currently on the french market or a resource I can find that info

The cheapest source should be an art supply house. Acetate was used mainly in commercial arts for overlays before it's renaissance in the world of pastry arts.

Well, what do you think? I believe I made myself quite clear in my previous post. And that menton1 added some crucial information. Besides, I asked you if you could please be more specific and you're replying beside the point. Again, what are your "informed sources"? And why should they say such a thing? Here in France we have AOCs and careful checking of commercial olive oils, as well as a very strict classification that, as a rule, no one kids with. French-produced olive oil is not taken lightly here, the production is too scarce and precious. I don't believe there are enough dishonest producers to establish a rule, and certainly one two-star chef in overhyped Provence taking advantage of the situation is not enough to give French olive oil a bad name. The way that you jump from this particular case to state that everybody does the same thing is, to say the least, abusive. Olive oil is a beloved, sacred food in Southern France, and the natural attitude of its producers is utter respect. Of course I am referring to the grands crus of French olive oil. But the situation is not different for the cheaper commercial brands like Puget, which are of very good quality, sometimes assembled from several sources, but then they don't claim to be grands crus and include no lamp oil or other rubbish, or the producers would be in dire trouble. The champions of olive oil prestidigitation are the Italians, not the French. What do your informed sources say about this? ← Well....my statement of French producers typically adding oils to their blends was more an indication of the olive oil market and less condemning of what Jean Andre Charial did. Who days the added oils are bad? Is French olive oil so much better than Spanish or Italian oils? The freeze of 1956 decimated olive oil production killing just about the entire olive tree population. Approx 70-80,000 trees exist today compared to over 300,000 before 1956. Due to increase in demand vis-à-vis changes in cuisine and nutritional information – the supply just isn’t there. I enjoy French Oils as much as the next guy – but don’t be naïve. Just because it’s blended doesn’t make it worse – the exception was taken by the fact that such a low grade oil was being sold for such a high price. You basically state any premium oil that is French labeled is 100% French product – wrong, you assume that I’m condemning the French olive oil industry, wrong again. I’m condemning the actions of a dishonest man. They way you detest any scrutiny and defer blame with "Well, everybody is doing it" makes me rethink just how wide spread is this type of thing? Empirical data can be found on the IOOCs website

Typical ? More informed sources ? Could you be more specific please? OK, Charial did a very jerky thing (I doubt he's more than an exception), but please don't present French olive oil as "typically" altered. This is unfair and inexact. I can vouch for many of our grands crus — oils from Nyons, Manosque, Nice, Languedoc, etc. I know most French olive oil producers to stick to the quantities corresponding to their small-scale olive production and that's all. And Southern chefs who do promote some special olive oils are not all gangsters, and support outstanding produce. In France the legislation on the composition of olive oils is extremely strict, defined by exact denominations. Perhaps you're likely to be gypped by a grand chef who surfs on the wave of Provençal hype, and you won't read the label. But you're much less likely to be gypped at any Carrefour or Leclerc where the label will tell you all. By the way this practice ("coupage") is particularly common in Italy, at any rate more than in France, but that doesn't get the news. ← So my statement is absolutley false then?

...and who's doing the tasting.

Sunday Brunch at Bar Italia - Heard good things about Sintra but have not been.

I preordered my copy via Amazon

Michelin starred Chef, Jean Andre Charial..... I'm told be more informed sources that adding olive oil that comes from outside of France is typical. Since olive production is so tentuous, the growers usually use anywhere from 20% to 50% purchased oils in their blends.

Me, a small induction cooktop or a hooker.

No, but instead of bread - they give you a computer.

The only common thread in my cellar are my 94' California Cult Cabs - everything else is all over the place with the exception of burgundies - I can't afford them

Glad to hear you enjoyed it.

I was with a local Chef that cooked a dinner at the Beard House 2 years ago - I found the equipment, support staff, cookware, and facilites as good as anything I've worked on. It's not top of the line custom french ranges but there are plenty of burners, fryers, plating space, etc. The only off-site prep we did is stocks and some butchering. More than half the meal was finished after I got to NY at 10:00 a.m. edit sp

I trade you all the Bonny Doon you wish for whatever old Clarets you may have kicking around your basement. ← Alas we live in a central London apartment, with three guys living in the basement. Not sure they'd be pleased to be described as old clarets. I just bought a couple of bottles of Domaine Berthoumieu 2001 Madiran (Cuvee Charles de Batz), to go with the roast pheasant on Sunday. This won a Gold medal and, I think, a Trophy in the "Eclectic Reds" section of the International Wine Competition 2004. I'll let you guys know how "the real thing" compares to the upstart Randall's collaboration. I think this is blended with a bit of Cab Sauv, which might not be the same mix as the Darkness. Edited to add PS Gordon: got it from the same supplier who is one of the very few people in the UK to carry the Whale Haven Pinot Noir we both had at Perigee Cheers! Sarah ←