Dave Hatfield

drink first, comment later.

First - congratulations! Second, I'm glad you enjoyed your Michelin Starred meal. It's heartening after the negativity coming from some members (see the power of Michelin thread). Thanks for a wonderful post.

When I started this thread I held back my own opinions on boxed wine, but in general I'm very much in favour of it. Here in France boxes are increasingly popular. Its simple economics since at the lower end of the cost scale packaging becomes a large percentage of total cost. A local example is the wine I buy just up the hill from our house. Paul sells it and the wine comes from his son-in-laws vineyard, Domaine de Pujul-Izard, in the Minervois. One of our favorites is his Chardonnay (100% chard, not oaked). This is a delightful summer wine, light, fruity and with plenty of presence. In a corked bottle it sells for 3.60 Euros. In a 5 litre box it sells for 11 Euros. That works out at 1.81 Euros per bottle. Exactly the same wine. The wine keeps well at least 4 weeks after being opened. Or at least I think it does, ours never lasts that long. I know another local winemaker who sell his wines from the cask. So much per litre. Bring your our container or he will sell you a box & fill it for you or he will bottle & cork it for you. You pays your money & takes your choice. Now, I'm sure boxes are not going to replace bottles for high end fine wines which benefit from long ageing. I would though love to see some experiments on what happens with long term box storage. But, here at least now that good decent drinkable wines are being put into boxes the economics seem to be such that boxes are the way to go. The wines being put into boxes here in France seem to range all the way up to pretty high quality products. I have bought a very good St Emillion in a box for example as well as some excellent Gaillacs. I would hope to see this trend continue and strengthen throughout the wine producing regions of the world.

Here's a link to an Op-Ed article in today's NY Times advocating that more vintners start boxing their wine. The author's reasoning certainly seems to make sense from an ecological point of view, but what about taste & the rest of enjoying wine? I'll admit a bias on the subject, but will hold my views for later. Just now I'd like to hear what everybody else thinks about wine in boxes. What are your experiences?

Slabs of half a salmon (Norwegian) at 8.5 Euro/kg at the super market today. Didn't buy any as we're stocked up. Past history says that their salmon is not bad at all.

Seems to me that it was a long time ago, if there ever was such a time when the food was THE far most important aspect of gaining a Michelin Star. These days I would contend that other factors count for as much, if not more,than the originality and taste of the actual food. Plating (for the snappers), the fancy plates, cutlery and other acrutriments, the décor all seem to count for a lot. In a lot of cases I ask myself; which came first, the pretty & unusual plate or the ideal dish to serve upon it? Are there on tap potters available just to design special plates for the chef's latest coup de folie? I don't know, but I do feel that something has been lost when it comes to Michelin praising truly great food. Still, most of the starred restaurants I have visited in the past few years have offered an experience that was worth the cost & effort of going. Michael Bra's was an exception, but only because the wine prices were so far over the top as to be nearly criminal. If you go strictly for the food I suspect that you will be disappointed quite a lot of the time. If you go for the experience of high end dining you are more likely to leave satisfied. Michelin is far too slow to catch the rising stars before everyone knows they're a star. Given the way they work there's no way they can keep up. Far better that people like those on eGullet discover them early & quietly spread the word. All in all I prefer the places that still do real food of their region perhaps with a new twist or I like to try the experimenters who don't always get it right, but do try and are true to themselves. The future Hestons & Adrians will come from this group.

I can't believe you believe that. Do you really? Or were you just trying to make a point?

Pretty obvious that there's never going to be agreement upon this subject. The snappers will snap come what may & the objectors will continue to suffer in silence. So be it. I do, however, have a possible solution to offer. Why don't restaurants take their own pictures of all of their dishes and offer them to their customers either for free or for a small fee? They could also post them on their websites and allow free reproduction so that the bloggers could use them. In this way we could eliminate picture taking in the restaurants and since the restaurants could light and stage things professionally the quality of the photography would in most cases be better.

A pretty good start I would think. I'm not too sure about the roasted vegetables as they fit with the chicken, but not with the rest of the dishes. Another time, perhaps or only if you have time for both the veggies & the chicken? I've been keeping the lessons short so the focus stays sharp and also so that Rob gets tangible results each time. So far, so good. I would by the way highly recommend "The Cook's Book" for your beginner. It covers most of the basic techniques in well illustrated lessons as well as having some dynamite recipes. Last I saw it was an amazing bargain.

Point taken, but ..... is it the squash blossom, the great stuffing, the excellent batter or ? that makes it taste good? I might argue that the squash blossom is merely the container, not a significant flavour component. Tempura style in Japan they're pretty good.

Well, I'm glad I seem to have captured some attention with my little analogy. Like all such attempts it is far from perfect, but the best I could come up with. Here are a few counterpoints/ rebuttals: "I don't agree with this analogy at all. Hearing is very difficult to "turn off." Sight, on the other hand, is not at all. Avoid looking at the photographers and the problem is solved." Am I and others just supposed to eat our meal with our eyes closed? Keep our eyes downcast throughout the meal if the 'photographer' is directly in our lines of sight? Ask for another table? (preferably in another room?) "The camera, on the other hand has a direct relationship to that meal. While some may not have their meals enhanced by btaking photos of the food or restaurant, many clearly do." Give me a break! Am I supposed to eat the camera? Its nothing more than a diversion. We have both our eyes and our noses to use to appreciate a dish set before us even though we have yet to take a spoonful. We have the gift of conversation to communicate our impressions & feelings about the food set before us. "I can understand being upset by the electronic ring or by someone yelling into a phone, but as long as the person is speaking at a normal conversational volume level I don't (and more importantly shouldn't) care whether he's talking to his tablemates or the babysitter. People talk in restaurants. Indeed they yell. This happens whether or not there are phones in use" Very true if they do use a normal voice, unfortunately they don't seem to. Of course people talk in restaurants, but yelling or very loud conversation whether on phone or not is rude and every bit as obnoxious as taking pictures. I wasn't comparing phones & smoking. I was merely stating that given the choice between sitting next to a table of smokers and a table of picture takers I'd choose the smokers. Strictly my personal preference and making a point no matter how ridiculous. Of course, smoking in restaurants is strictly taboo. "A blanket rejection of food photography makes no sense" Please don't put words in my mouth. I never said a negative word about food photography other than having it exercised in a restaurant. In fact TV and cook books are an excellent way to see food photographs as are personal pictures (a la the dinner thread) of food. These both have the advantage of normally having recipes attached. My objection is strictly focused upon taking pictures of food in restaurants. Personal pictures uploaded to appropriate places such as eGullet, one's food blog and so forth are great and I have no problem with them. I do have a separate issue when the difference between food as art and photography of food as art get confused, but that's more philosophical as an argument. In any case I'll look forward to more opinions on this subject.

I'm going to enjoy this thread. As it happens I'm teaching a friend to cook. Rob's had two lessons so far. In his case I'm letting him in most cases tell me what he'd like to learn to cook. He started off by learning how to make a simple lettuce & tomato salad to go with an omelette. This taught him some beginning knife skills, to tear not cut lettuce and how to make a vinaigrette. The eggs were lightly beaten & he learned some timing as he had to make 4. (His wife & mine are the 'customers" at Chez Rob.) Two were with lardons & cheese & the other two with parsley. Nothing fancy, but all turned out well. Next I got him over to help prepare for a more elaborate meal. (12 people) I had Rob prepare & make gazpacho. Making this much was great for his knife skills as well as learning how to peel tomatoes & peel & de-seed cucumbers. At a previous meal Rob had admired some bread sticks I'd made so I had him make a batch for this meal. This taught him about simple yeast doughs, adding things to them, egg washes & so forth. Being with me in the kitchen the whole time he was able to observe how the rest of the dishes were put together. He wants to learn how to do risotto next, but I think we'll mess with a few pasta recipes first before we progress to something as delicate as risotto. Anyway, so far he's having fun & so am I. Lets keep each other posted.

Well it is just food and we should just eat it. When in restaurants anyway. To those who think taking pictures of food in restaurants is a good thing I'll try to see if a small analogy might cause you to pause & think. Think of someone with their beloved cell phone in a good restaurant. First they say: "I'll turn the ringer off." (Food fotoer; (" I won't use the flash.") Then they say; " I'll speak very softly." ( Food fotoer; " I'll try not to get up or squirm too much as I try for the perfect angle. Nor will I pass plates around the table so all get their picture taken.") Then the phoney says; "I'll keep it short." ( Fofotoer; " I'll only take 50 pics instead of my normal 100. Getting good shots in this low light is hard you know." Now, thank goodness, the phone has pretty much been banned in restaurants or where not most practitioners either turn it off or go outside. Not so food photographers. And believe me they are annoying. Most restaurants put up with it because they don't know what else to do and most other customers annoyed though they may be don't complain to the management or the photographer. Personally, I'd rather have to sit next to a table of smokers than a table of photographing foodies. As for the comments above about food as art. Occasionally food does rise above the level of craft and become art. The art, however, is not the visual it is the aroma and above all the taste. I can think of no truly great chef who is more admired for his/ her presentation than the taste of what comes from his/her imagination & skill. A simple example. A perfect steak is culinary art, but nobody would accuse one of being pretty. (Yes, a good photographer can make a steak look pretty good.) Yet it is a delight to eat, I can still remember the aroma, taste, texture and occasion of a small number of top steaks. On the other hand, there is a really beautiful picture up thread of some squash blossoms presumably stuffed with something delicious. In my experience beautiful though they may be squash blossoms don't taste particularly good. Can't say I've ever had a squash blossom dish to remember. By all means take all the pictures you want of the food you produce, share them as you will, but you could just end up being remembered as a great photographic artist (& there's nothing at all wrong with that) not as a great chef. I for one don't need a picture to remind my of great food or great wine for that matter. As with wine the language of food when used properly is enough. Still. if you want pictures who am to say otherwise. Please, just don't take them in a restaurant when I'm eating. Thanks.

I checked at a local Hypermarket today & salmon from Norway was 12.50 - 14.90 per kilo depending upon the cut. Farmed trout are cheaper yet at 9.70/kg. Sardines especially the filleted ones are still the best bargain at about 6.50/kg. Haven't seen real wild salmon for a while.

You might look at "The Cook's Book". Each section is by a well know chef, the recipes are good and the illustrations/ instructions are brilliant. Ideal for a beginner.

Anything is possible. I remember being given prices in old francs over ten years after that change. I haven't seen a s.n.c. menu in the last 15 years. As Pti says its illegal. I think the guide books are just well behind the times and in some cases guilty of sloppy editing. There are of course restaurateurs who will deliberately make the situation as fuzzy as possible when they have a fair number of tourists as customers in the hope that an American or British sized tip will be forthcoming. You meet these types all over this globe. Don't pay a tip in France in a restaurant except for truly outstanding service is my motto.

Outrageous! Where pray tell did you see those prices? I'm curious only in the interest of avoiding the place.

Here is link to a NY Times article on a small part of Brittany. Wish I could afford the hotel prices they quote! And of course (got to get the food angle in) they dined upon crepes - I think.

Zoe - Although I can't recommend anywhere specific I can say that the French are very baby friendly. Enjoy the experience; the French love baby's. (And by the way have some of the greatest baby clothes in existence) We see lots of baby's, toddlers and up in the restaurants. This applies to everything from humble bistros to Michelin starred places. They are welcomed and are great 'ice breakers' as most French especially the older ones will want to have a word. Thus, if I were you I wouldn't worry too much. Just go where you will. There are lots of excellent suggestions in the thread that John mentioned. I speak both as a French resident and Grand father of eight.

Nope. Carefully controlled, but widely available here in France. Plus many many cheeses made from 'lait cru' also widely available.

Don't worry about it. Slow changes in temperature are what is important. Its the rapid fluctuations in temp & humidity that do the damage, if any. So long as any rise or fall in temperature is gradual you should not have a problem. With higher temperatures all that will happen is quicker aging, Not a bad thing I think. Wish I still had 100 bottles of good stuff!

Julia Child's original "Mastering the Art ... " is actually pretty good. Also, I like the individual volumes of Larousse where they do recipes only on meat, vegetables and so forth in each volume. They're more user friendly than the big book. Maybe not exactly what you are looking as there are no pictures.

Not always accurate, but here's what wikipedia have to say. Other sources say similar things. I haven't tasted Blue Vinney for a large number of years, but my memories of it are good.

I thought that there might be some interest in the tradition of Eau de Vie here in the area of France where I live. You can see a full write up on my blog. (link below) Since this is a very poor area of France there has always been a strong interest in the free fruits of the land. Thus the use of wild plums to make Eau de Vie. The tradition continues today although Eau de Vie from other fruits is made and can be very fine it is not considered to be 'authentic". Many of our local friends take great pride in the quality of their Eau de Vie and age it for years and years. Its a great way to end a meal, but must be taken in moderation. It is truely powerful stuff!