Nathan

think a dash of peach bitters would conflict? it tends to work well with mint in my experience, but I'm not sure what it would do with the elderflower on top of that....might be time for an experiment...

I'm sure he could at least send the pacojet truck for a tour up there!

define "inexpensive"...including drinks, tax, tip.

eh...I tend to think it was an upsell....probably caused by the birthday (that's exactly the scenario where an upsell is likely to work...which it did). it doesn't mean that he was lying per se, he might well have drunk that at some point in the previous week...but the idea that he's drinking a "super-Tuscan" on a regular basis on hot summer nights seems unlikely.

per today's NY Times...Room4Dessert is closed indefinitely and may not reopen in the same space. this is quite sad.

in NYC that's about right....but in most of the U.S. the average check is significantly lower.

I simply haven't found that to be the case. Of course - I can't recall going to a single restaurant in Europe ever anywhere where we didn't speak at least a passing amount of the local language (except in Scandinavia - which is one of the few places in Europe IMO where English is almost universal). I think that one's ability or inability to speak a foreign language may well influence where one winds up dining. Which in turn can influence the kind of dining experience you have. So what countries in particular in Europe are you talking about - the ones where service is inferior to service in the US? Robyn ← well, I've lived in Norway, Germany, Italy, and the UK (admittedly, I was quite young then). I've traveled widely since. and I'll stand by that statement for pretty much anywhere besides Germany, Switzerland and the Netherlands. the major problem is pacing. too many tables per waiter. its fine in the cultural context..where the meal is the evening...

I usually have pretty low standards for service at the low end - and middle of the road standards for the middle. Hard to be disappointed when your expectations aren't very high. Heck - I even find the dining service on trains (outside the US - who uses a train in the US?) is pretty good (keeping in mind that my expectations are reasonable - all I ask is that the server not drop something on me when the train lurches ). Robyn ← right...but the whole point is that though fine dining may have better service in Europe (generally speaking)...its often/usually worse at the low and middle end in Europe.

I spend around $425 at Alinea for one last summer. tasting menu $225, wine pairings were about $125. worth every penny. I've been at a couple celebratory work dinners where the per-person cost was definitely much higher (including one of about 100 people that was probably in the $75-100K range). I've had a couple girlfriends take me on dates in the $600 for two range. (Jean-Georges and a charity dinner) I can't say that I've spent that much on a date...(nor could I)...although a night of just cocktails and a little music in NY can easily run $300 for two.

Have to ask you a question. Do you regularly do more than one thing in an evening (like dinner and a show) where part of the evening consists of a $500 meal? I guess there are people who do. But - to me - a really expensive meal at a fine restaurant is enough entertainment for a single night . If we have theater tickets or the like - we generally have a simpler dining experience (either early or late - and sometimes if we're on the road it may be some assorted goodies purchased at a nice store which we eat in our hotel room). Robyn ← of course not. but that's why we were talking about low end and mid-level places. I expect a four hour meal at a Michelin three star. I don't when I'm having a 25 Euro bistro meal. and that's the cultural difference.

These vegetables were modified through selection for type, and by cross-breeding, in-breeding and hybridization. These processes mimic the way plants and animals evolve in nature. The only difference is that humans are choosing which progeny survive to reproduce. Genetic modification, on the other hand, involves direct manipulation of the genetic code. It involves splicing genes from one cell into another. You now have transgenic organisms--corn that carries genes from bacteria, plants that contain genes of animal origin, etc. They are not at all the same. No, gene splicing doesn't make them inherently dangerous. Some might be, most probably aren't. But, unless these products are provided to me for free, I reserve the right to choose for myself and to make an informed decision. April ← not really. cross-breeding, in-breeding and hybridization do not mimic natural selection. furthermore, the "origin" of genes are irrelevant. DNA is DNA. in addition, natural selection, cross-breeding, in-breeding and hybridization have produced dangerous crops and organisms. I would support a label on all GM products....including every plant variety and animal that never existed indigenous to nature.

Of these - I've only been to Rome and Paris. I can recall one very awful service experience in Paris - at Lucas Carton. That's about it. Nothing bad sticks in my mind about Rome - but it would have had to be pretty bad to remember it after all these years (the Lucas Carton episode was so bad I have remembered it after over 20 years). Ah - I just remembered another bad experience in Paris - which turned out kind of funny. Our friend/mentor in Paris was good friends with the head bartender at the Georges V (Nino). I had a terrible cold one day - couldn't taste a thing - so he suggested we all go to Harry's Bar for lunch. Everyone told me to have a JW Black (scotch) to help my cold. So I did. I don't know much about scotch - but it tasted really awful - not smooth. So the glass got passed around the table - and everyone agreed the scotch was not JW Black. So Nino called the waiter - and said "this is not JW Black". And the waiter started to argue with him - and finally said something like - who are you to tell me these things. And Nino pulled himself up very straight and said - I am Nino - the head bartender at the Georges V - and this is not JW Black. At that point the waiter took back the glass - and returned with JW Black. Don't think it had any effect on my cold - just made me forget I had one . FWIW - I think that my husband's language studies have really been useful in terms of service. We've found that speaking even a little of a language like Italian - German - Spanish or Japanese - is a real ice-breaker at a lot of places where people don't speak English. I tend to think that perhaps we generally get good service because my husband's language skills are a curiosity. French in France is an exception to the rule (although French in Quebec isn't). Robyn ← both Marlene and myself were talking about the low and middle end.

sigh...more scientific illiteracy. (edit: I wasn't saying that you are illiterate!...just that such concerns usually are) practically all foodstuffs have been genetically modified by humans. for example cauliflower, broccoli, turnips, kale and rutabaga have never existed as "natural plants"....they were genetically modified by humans from the mustard plant (which does and did exist "naturally"). pretty impressive to get all that from one plant actually.

its summer.

so the "Amateur Gourmet" (he is an "amateur" but not much of a "gourmet"...see his hit piece on Le Cirque when he got a bad table because his mother acted like a rube) wrote a response to Batali yesterday: http://www.amateurgourmet.com/the_amateur_...fense_of_f.html warning: AG has a habit of deleting comments that disagree with him.

they're calling them "vegetables" on the online menu: especially recommend the: cauliflower, radishes and english peas with proscuitto. get some cheeses as well.

get a plate of carne...I think they'll do a sampler for you guys. maybe some pesce as well. order a bunch of contorini. try the lardo pizza and whatever's the daily special. olive oil gelato, ricotta gelato, olive oil gelato, olive oil gelato, olive oil gelato, olive oil gelato, olive oil gelato, olive oil gelato, olive oil gelato! obviously, Italian wines from one of the best lists in the city are the way to go. maybe split a flight of house-infused grappa to finish....and then on to Pegu (unless it's a weekend...then don't go to Pegu!)

only at the high end. ← I live in Germany and as far as my own experience at least, would have to disagree. It is certainly less chatty than in the US and a little slower but that's more of a cultural thing...people tend to go out to dinner planning to spend a whole evening so unless you tell them you are in a rush they will assume the normal dinner pace. Contrast with the US "upper-mid scale" where we've had situations where we order a bottle of wine and then get our appetizer, main and check within the next 20 minutes. And frankly, I am happy to do without the chatty waitresses... Standard tip in Germany is 5-10%, decreasing with check size. ← if you read up the thread, I said exactly that. the problem is that I tend to want to do multiple things in the same evening

one trip isn't much of a sample size. I do think that German and Dutch low-end and mid-level restaurant service is closer to U.S. standards than most other European countries...I believe that this is due to cultural factors.

as far as I can tell...they're there primarily for visual effect (see the Los Angeles Cocktail).

If I recall correctly (don't count on it!)...I think they told me the Slope was 2:1:1. It is a nice drink.

Extra Large, I think. I usually go for large browns; but, we got down to the farmers' market a bit late last Saturday, and XL white were all they had left. ← whoops. eggs were significantly smaller 50 years ago, let alone 75 years ago. try the smallest egg you can buy or only use half of an XL. that should balance out any egg drink a great deal.

only at the high end.

horsemeat is also common in Verona. supposedly, the tradition began after an area battle left a bunch of dead horses.

Jessika - As I noted before, it is a matter of preference. While I enjoy Italian food, I don't usually go out of my way to eat it out. For me, I would rather eat french bistro fare than Italian. Again this is a matter of personal preference. Don't get me wrong, while a meal at Babbo and Del Posto might definitely do it for me, pizza or pasta no matter how good is not what I'm interested in (topping or no toppings). In fact if I had my drothers I would rather go to Una Pizza Neopolitana or Di Fara's for a pizza fix. But again its not my idea of a night out especially for a trip into the city. I didn't mean to offend the fans of Otto or Mr. Batali by my comments. BTW, I did take a closer look at the menu and did note the ingredients used on the pies. That being said it is STILL pizza. To some a nice plate of choucroute is just hot dogs with sauerkraut. It's all a matter of perspective as well as likes and dislikes. ← good luck and report back! with that said, I think you're misunderstanding Otto still. A. its very possible to have a good meal without ordering either pizza or pasta there. B. if you don't want to eat pasta when out...there's no point whatsoever in going to Babbo or Del Posto. C. if you don't wait too long..Ssam Bar is definitely the way to go...