Nathan

it gets worse. zagat's rules are: poor -- 0 good -- 1 very good -- 2 excellent -- 3 essentially, the default rating is "good" or "very good"

I was actually referring to Element...but I think there will be more. I think it's a variety of trends that are now merging into a sort of "critical mass"....if Ssam Bar didn't exist, someone else would have done it.

well the NP, like any trend/paradigm/milieu has many roots and antecedents. I don't think anyone is asserting otherwise. furthermore, like any complex phenomena, it's on a continuum. I think that Ssam Bar, and to some extent Bouley Upstairs, is the definitional restaurant. it's the one that you look at, say "this is unique" and then you look around and start realizing that there are a few other restaurants evincing the same weltaunschaung and quite a few more that share some characteristics. sure. but that doesn't say anything about the existence or nonexistence of the NP. the proof will be in whether there are more restauranteurs that follow Chang's example. I think there will be...and it looks like there are.

Zabb in Queens...very good by all accounts. Zabb in the EV....ugh. they've massively dumbed down the menu (and the dishes) for a Caucasian, EV audience. no better than Klong and the like. edit: this apparently wasn't true at the opening but happened pretty quickly thereafter.

Momofuku Noodle. E.U.?

That's the average of the places that made it into Zagat, which (presumably) tend to be the better places in the city. It sounds reasonable to me that the average place found in their guide would be at the bottom end of the "very good" range. Not that I disagree with the larger point ... Zagat's "very good to excellent" (20-25) clearly something very different from NYT's "very good to excellent (2-3 stars). ← Zagat is not Michelin. my understanding is that any restaurant that meets a minimum vote threshhold is included. (regardless of whether the ratings are positive or negative.)...Zagat rates over 2000 restaurants in NY. but a specific problem (one of many) with Zagat is that there is no "average" score that a voter may assign.

as for the traditional deli items that Bruni didn't mention...there might be a reason, Ed Levine (a regular dining companion of Bruni's) writes: "awful french fries (when I was growing up Katz's fresh french fries were legendarily delicious), the pretty dreadful matzo ball soup, the terrible potato pancakes and knishes, and the generic cole slaw not made on premises that is identical to the cole slaw found at Smiler's and hundreds of other faceless delis and coffee shops in New York." http://www.seriouseats.com/required_eating...urant-crit.html

According to my college roomie, no. I made bagels, she pronounced them good, but not really bagels. When I asked why they werent really bagels (thinking I'd made a processing/flavor/texture error), she said no matter what I did, they'd never really be bagels because I wasnt Jewish. ← I actually never knew that bagels were identified as being Jewish until I moved to New York about five years ago. I think I probably had them first when I lived in Vancouver B.C. in the 80's....also ran across my first "deli" there....reubens were the main identifiable deli food. just saying that once you leave the East Coast...a lot of these identifications become increasingly attenuated.

Then don't pretend to be reading your first issue today. That is not how the NY Times star system works. Period. If the Inquirer wants to give the same rating to Tony Luke's and Le Bec Fin that's their prerogative, but it's not how it works here, and with very good reasons that have been hashed over interminably in this thread. ← Alas, the Philadelphia Inquirer has not given Tony Luke's the same rating as Le Bec-Fin. Nor do I think that the New York Times must give Katz's the same rating as Daniel. But a rating system that is incapable of acknowledging four star, one dollar sign restaurants is both pompous and flawed. ← it appears that you've made this argument before....and there's nothing inherently wrong with making that argument (I think it's wrong because it would a. result in mass confusion...and b. give us 50 restaurants with the highest ranking)....but what has this to do with Bruni? he didn't create the system. yet, he's been called a "cretin" and "pompous" and "myopic" for following a system that he didn't create (and probably doesn't have the power to change).

Yes, I can see that. But not completely, somehow. Maybe it's because the Czech and Hungarian restaurants I visited in their native countries were dissimilar in terms of some aspects of flavor and other aspects of something indefineable, maybe (most definitely) quality level. But then again, I am comparing a Jewish deli from the US to some restaurants in other countries around the year 1989. Maybe there's a closer fit now, or maybe there's a closer fit in terms of home cooking vs. restaurant fare. (?) ← well, sure, there are dissimilarities....but the meat (other than pork and game), dumplings (including in chicken broth),sausages and cabbage are all heading in that direction.

when I was first exposed to delis and deli food I had no clue they were supposed to be Jewish. seriously.

no, no...they're overlapping! anyone (although there are some very religious sects that disagree) who practices Judaism is Jewish. someone who comes from a traditionally ethnic Jewish background (Ashknenazi or Sephardic) is generally considered Jewish regardless of which religion they practice (recent genetic testing has confirmed that Ashkenazim and Sephardim are related and that further the common genetic roots predate the Diaspora). so, it's both. as for Buddhism, although many sects do have dietary restrictions, others do not. such as much of Tibetan Buddhism...(my understanding is that the branch of Mahayana practiced in Tibet follows a "you should always eat what is placed in front of you" rule).

Czech, Slovakian or Hungarian.

Ssam Bar only takes reservations for the bo ssam...I walked in with Sneakeater the other week on a Thursday (same thing as a weekend night) and we only waited 10 minutes.

um, that sort of cretin is known as a professional restaurant critic doing their job. Is there another starred deli in NY? in the U.S.? ← Ordering something as obscure as a "Philly Style" cheesesteak at a New York Deli the caliber of Katz's, and passing over a multitude of more normal deli fare is a not restaurant critic being professional (meaning thorough I assume). Rather, to be kind, it is a restaurant critic being idiosyncratic. ← you do realize that he went at least three times with a variety of companions and ordered most of the menu? (there is a legitimate criticism of Bruni that he generally doesn't talk enough about the food at restaurants but it's understood here that he doesn't by any means mention every dish he tries)

well....Jewish identity is partially separated from Judaism. but leaving that aside, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism and Jainism are dissimilar from Christianity and Buddhism in that they have express dietary restrictions in their orthodox forms. (some Christian sects have dietary restrictions but they're not part and parcel of the religion's history, many Buddhists have dietary restrictions....but they're not required...even among the most orthodox. the Dalai Lama is a carnivore)

whether the star system works or not (and whether it should be altered -- I don't care so long as the rules are explained) is a separate matter from the two contentions I see above: A. that Bruni has a bias AGAINST (!!!!!???!!!!) informal and cheaper restaurants. B. that NY should have hundreds of three and four starred restaurants (the problem with this is obvious I think)

since every gentile Russian and Ukranian eats borscht...I don't think there'd be much of an argument there. ditto for a number of food items I see mentioned on this thread. basically...what Kinsey said.

um, that sort of cretin is known as a professional restaurant critic doing their job. Is there another starred deli in NY? in the U.S.?

Word has it that 95% of eGullet NY posters also floss after brushing. ← no pastrami is that good. period. this is proposing an outcome worse than Zagat. talk about grade inflation! there are literally hundreds of restaurants in NY that all have one food item which they perform better than anyone else in the city. by this logic they all should receive three stars. that's inane. or one could propose to privilege pastrami above all other foodstuffs I suppose. furthermore, this accusation: "price must be the determining factor in Bruni's myopic and evidently pompous limiting of Katz's to a solitary star." could only be made by someone utterly unfamiliar with Bruni's reviewing history. or at least, by someone completely unfamiliar with the restaurants that he's reviewing..such that they don't realize it was rather groundbreaking (and anti-formal dining) for him to two-star Sri or S&T etc... this is probably the first (and last) time in human history that Bruni has been accused of being biased against downmarket and cheaper restaurants. that's not hyperbole either.

McDonald's has a showpiece restaurant in Illinois that's been doing something along this line for years.

well..apparently the Times review did have an impact. I had organized a large group for the bo ssam tomorrow and it turns out that they're getting booked weeks in advance (something which wasn't the case a couple months ago) for it. I'm just amazed that anyone can hold together a group of 8-14 people weeks in advance....especially after Memorial Day

this is news to anyone who's been reading Bruni's reviews. lower prices cause him to raise a restaurant a star! this is the same guy who two-starred Sri, S&T, LO, Resto etc. etc. and gave only two to The Modern and GR. the pastrami and the brisket make up about 5% of Katz's menu. if Bruni had two or three starred Katz's he would have been lambasted by 95% of the posters on the NY egullet. read through this thread if you don't believe me. he's also about the only Times reviewer who would actually review a deli.

yup...probably the most exciting team to be a foodie since traders began bringing foodstuffs from Asia and the Americas to Europe.

I don't think you understand the NY Times system. 1 star is a rave review for a deli.