Nathan

Why do you conclude these are contradictory statements? All trends, paradigms, what-have-you come from somewhere...they don't arise ex-nihilo. They're all natural progressions from something. Just because one can explicate how nouvelle cuisine came about and where it came from doesn't mean that it didn't exist as a defined movement.

as I said, I don't like the lunch ssam either. so? it's absurd to conclude off of one item that Chang "is overrated" ← In general, you are correct, although in this case, the dish in question, a ssam, is also part of the restaurant name. If any dish should be good at a restaurant it should be one that the restaurant is named after. For reasons I mentioned above, I happen to think it is over-rated, but not because of the ssam. Mind you, over-rated does not necessarily mean bad. I didn't think the food was bad. I just didn't think it was nearly as good as many of the people on this topic apparently do or as good a value as many apparently think it is. ← well, real ssam (essentially, lettuce wraps) is only served at dinner. she didn't try that. your opinion that it's overrated I respect because you actually tried more than one item. edit: of course, this is what happens when Chang made into an entirely different restaurant but kept the old name.

well, I think there's certainly a critical mass of them now. I wasn't around for La Maison Japonaise but did it have a similar mixture of high and low on the same menu?

as I said, I don't like the lunch ssam either. so? it's absurd to conclude off of one item that Chang "is overrated" ← In general, you are correct, although in this case, the dish in question, a ssam, is also part of the restaurant name. If any dish should be good at a restaurant it should be one that the restaurant is named after. For reasons I mentioned above, I happen to think it is over-rated, but not because of the ssam. Mind you, over-rated does not necessarily mean bad. I didn't think the food was bad. I just didn't think it was nearly as good as many of the people on this topic apparently do or as good a value as many apparently think it is. ← well, real ssam (essentially, lettuce wraps) is only served at dinner. she didn't try that. your opinion that it's overrated I respect because you actually tried more than one item.

as I said, I don't like the lunch ssam either. so? it's absurd to conclude off of one item that Chang "is overrated"

oh come on! if you're eating through the menu at Ssam Bar you're willing to experiment with offal, kimchee, fish sauce, crawfish with Sichuan peppers etc.... that's "relatively adventurous". its not like Ssam Bar has the standard "safe" salmon and chicken entrees. (Bouley Upstairs at least has a burger.)

I don't see why it would be disputed that the median age at Ssam Bar is almost certainly under 35...quite possibly under 30. I don't want to get into your larger point...but are you really saying that you can't predict which subway stops people are getting off on by their clothing and hair? That's an incredibly easy game to play. If I'm wrong on this (and gawker and eater and DBTH and SR and WR and every other social NY blog are also wrong on this)...then fashion marketers have wasted millions of dollars tailoring their wares to specific demographics. There's a reason why Bloomingdales Downtown is very different from Bloomingdales Uptown in its selection. Elizabeth St. John is aimed at women of a certain age who live uptown. Imitation of Christ (I'm not talking about Thomas a Kempis) is aimed at a certain Brooklyn/LES demographic. etc. etc. etc. so, yeah, it's darn easy to figure out if a restaurant has a downtown crowd, an uptown crowd, a B&T crowd...etc. Ssam Bar has a very downtown crowd...and trends more EV than WV...heck, I ride the L train regularly. it doesn't take rocket science to figure out in a split second whether someone is going home to the WV or to the EV/Williamsburg (there are probably differentiations there that I'm not cool enough to ascertain). I mean, Murray Hill and the EV draw similar age groups...but it'd be patently absurd to argue that the denizens of each don't dress quite differently (if you don't believe me, walk into the Hairy Monk tonight and then walk into Angels and Kings).

at least Bruni isn't congenitally opposed against the trend (although I agree he has at least some aversion to formal dining). contrast with the Randall Lane review of Ssam Bar where he basically said that the restaurant had no right to serve high end and expensive dishes along with its $8 dishes.

I'm more than willing to replace "knowledgeable" with "relatively adventurous"... I think all of these places are somewhat foodie driven as well... I think on the earlier thread on those topic L'Atelier was brought up as a partial progenitor. I'd also suggest that Tailor will most likely be another example.

Chang is certainly a savvy self-promoter, but the last thing Ssam Bar is is a restaurant consultant driven restaurant. it's actually a happy accident. you can trace its history on the relevant thread. as for the NP, to amplify FG's excellent definition, here's mine: "in my view the NP is composed of: 1. cross-cultural, chef-driven food combining high and low...often in the same dish. 2. casual surroundings, no formal trappings (although the food contains elements that were traditionally reserved to three and four star cuisine). 3. especially appeals to a youthful but knowledgeable demographic."

correct on the last one and I think you're correct on the first one as well.

I agree with the first two. I don't recall the third coming up on the original thread. It's also unmeasurable. We can all look at a Momofuku Ssam Bar menu and see what elements are there. We can't survey the diners as to their level of knowledge.The other problem with "packed" is that it doesn't narrow anything down, since so many places are packed that have none of the other purported elements of the paradigm. In contrast, many lights with red, yellow, and green are in fact traffic lights. ← I guess I'd revise the third to say "foodie-driven" or something like that. there's no question that the demographic at NP places tends to be younger but relatively affluent...the knowledgeable part perhaps should be rephrased as "adventurous"...at least compared to their peers.

I don't think the "packed" part is a major criterion. in my view the NP is composed of: 1. cross-cultural, chef-driven food combining high and low...often in the same dish. 2. casual surroundings, no formal trappings (although the food contains elements that were traditionally reserved to three and four star cuisine). 3. especially appeals to a youthful but knowledgeable demographic.

you went to the wrong website. this is the correct one: http://www.jean-georges.com/ Jean-Georges has a superb lunch (if they're open on Monday)...two courses for $28. also consider Bar Room at the Modern. if you're willing to leave midtown you'll find a lot more options...(i.e. Balthazar or Cafe Falai for breakfast)

price range? type of cuisine?

stopped in last night. already packed...they were steadily turning people away....I'm guessing the Eater post had a major effect. had a flaming Chartreuse fizz that was excellent as well as a nicely done Trident and an East India. considering the youthfulness of the neighborhood, it's rather interesting that the EV is becoming such a cocktail center (D&C, PDT, M&H close by, and Blue Owl and Angel's Share aren't bad)...

FG noted that one characteristic of NP places is that they are packed prior to critical applause. this is not the same thing as saying that they are packed because they are NP.

actually, I ate there out of curiosity (probably wouldn't bother again). I do go to the front bar quite often for a very prosaic reason...magnificent eye candy and an excellent ratio of same. I'm actually pretty awful at even recognizing celebs.

Just to clarify, I think I know what I said. The chefs, pastry chefs, sous and cooks I was referring to, like I said, are from out of town. Many hadn't known about ssam bar until he was nominated. Hence, the awards are a factor in filling seats. But that's enough of that; I'm not going to fight to the death over the merits of a burrito bar-cum-overpriced pork-and-pickle restaurant. This is crazy. Hats off to Mimi Sheraton for setting off these waves. ← your clarification makes sense. but that's what? 2-3 covers a night at most (I highly doubt it's that many)...in an already packed restaurant?

I agree with one small caveat: If you don't like a place popular with the food board community, it's because you don't get it. That's the message I'm picking up from the last 4 pages of this ridiculous thread. And I've seen it again and again on this board and others. For what it's worth, I love Ssam Bar. One of my favorite places in the city, in fact. No, I don't go at lunch, and no, I don't often order the ssam (though I do quite like the momofuku ssam). But is it my place to criticize those who do these things, don't enjoy themselves, and subsequently write about it? Honestly, I couldn't care less. As long as you yourself are getting the best of what a given restaurant has to offer, why the hell would you possibly care what other people are ordering? ← no, this thread was caused because someone in a position of authority stated that Chang "is overrated" based upon one item, and his least interesting at that. if someone has an entire dinner there and doesn't like it...that's fine. that didn't happen. ← Exactly. So she made a ridiculous generalization based on one item at a restaurant that you apparently know how to "properly" enjoy and she doesn't. It's not the end of the world. Happens all the time. CitySearch, MenuPages, Zagat, etc are literally filled with such crap. The average diner is not making several visits to a given restaurant to figure out how they feel about it. They are going once. At whatever the hell time they want. And ordering whatever they want to order. Plain and simple. Yet, the average diner, of course, is not even reading this thread and doesn't participate in boards like this one, which makes the last 4 pages of arguments even more ridiculous and irrelevant. We know what Momofuku Ssam is about. You're preaching to the choir, man! ← agreed. this thread happened because it was Mimi Sheraton writing. if a civilian had written "I went and had the lunch ssam and it sucked" no one would have paid any mind.

I agree with one small caveat: If you don't like a place popular with the food board community, it's because you don't get it. That's the message I'm picking up from the last 4 pages of this ridiculous thread. And I've seen it again and again on this board and others. For what it's worth, I love Ssam Bar. One of my favorite places in the city, in fact. No, I don't go at lunch, and no, I don't often order the ssam (though I do quite like the momofuku ssam). But is it my place to criticize those who do these things, don't enjoy themselves, and subsequently write about it? Honestly, I couldn't care less. As long as you yourself are getting the best of what a given restaurant has to offer, why the hell would you possibly care what other people are ordering? ← no, this thread was caused because someone in a position of authority stated that Chang "is overrated" based upon one item, and his least interesting at that. if someone has an entire dinner there and doesn't like it...that's fine. that didn't happen.

Of course the Beard nominations factor into its popularity. In the grand scheme of things, your average diner doesn't know who James Beard is, nor do they care about who wins the award. But the average diner isn't the average MSB customer. Who else pre-orders bo ssam and pays those prices for banh mis but foodies and industry people? MSB is the first place every out-of-town chef, pastry chef, and line cook I've met first asks about and then makes a bee-line for. Similarly, I have to drag every non-foodie I know to the place. Most leave unimpressed because they don't give a hoot about awards, buzz or hot chefs - they judge it on taste alone. If I may add, I find this entire discussion much more fascinating than MSB itself. It seems as if some are implying that if you don't like it, it's because you don't get it. It couldn't possibly be a result of JUST NOT LIKING the food, service or atmosphere? ← um, foodies already knew about the place before the JB awards. that's the point. your statements contradict themselves. like I already said, the downtowners and the food industry types who care about the JBs already were eating at Ssam Bar. the few older uptowners who may have missed the buzz and the Times review but somehow caught the Beard award aren't trekking downtown to 2nd Ave for dinner at a place where they can't make a reservation and have to stand around for a half hour before they can sit on a bench.

I'd be surprised if the Times wasn't a small factor. I'd be shocked if the Beard award was any factor at all. You have to be pretty food-obsessed to be familiar with the Beard awards at all...in which case you'd already heard about Ssam Bar. The only real shift in the Ssam demographic will occur if it gets a sterling rating in Zagat next year. Otherwise, its clientele will remain predominantly young and downtown.

What was the Ssam demographic may not have been familiar with the Beard awards, but the demographic familiar with the Beard awards is now aware of Chang and his work. Don't you think they will be interested in checking it out? Why do you insist on such a narrow demographic for the restaurant unless that is the only demographic that it will appeal to? ← I don't. but....a. the demographic at Ssam Bar hasn't changed in the last couple weeks (to my knowledge); b. frankly, I think most of the hypothetical people who would be influenced by the Beard award but were otherwise unfamiliar with Ssam Bar aren't going to deal with the lack of reservations, the racuous atmosphere and the uncomfortable seating. (or they're going to come for lunch.......)

second Despana. speaking of sausages, does anyone know where I can find Usingers products?