Robert Schonfeld

So, Steve, by your own definition, Italian cuisine: relevant or not? (A fun read; thanks.)

Thanks for such a well-reasioned and well-written report, Robert. The FL clearly merits both attention and criticism. No doubt chef Keller will get plenty of both when he sets up here in NYC.

That's interesting. Can anyone supply a link to that thread?

I'm not clear. Are we for or against adjectival interference and why?

Or to join one, Wilfrid. Birds of a feather and all that.

I didn't see mention of a place called Alla Furatola, near the Accademia. We've always gone at lunchtime. Two brothers; one waits tables, the other cooks. Impeccable seafood and seafood-related pastas. Many locals. It takes a certain amount of strategizing to eat well in Venice, and to enjoy the city free from its theme park cloak. It also takes a certain education of the eye, as well as the other senses. Worth the effort for some.

If you can't brine your bird, get a kosher one.

I love the "artisinal farfalle". My grandmother made artisinal farfalle.

Now that I think about it, a middle eastern place we go to puts some on their rosewater pudding, along with some chopped pistachios.

I just happen to have ready access to expertise in this matter, and I'm told that, in Hebrew, it is spelled with an "ayin", producing a subtle pause and a soft glottal sound which is very difficult for westerners. For our purposes here, "zatar", or "zahtar" is good. We have always used it with savory foods, but the dessert idea is intriguing. There used to be a Lebanese bookstore owner on the next block who would bring me his own blend. Now there are no more neighborhood bookstores.

FG, when is a publisher going to hire you to write a real book, with paragraphs and everything?

Ok, I feel better now.

Based on descriptions thus far, including that of the estimable FG (who inexplicably failed to invite me to join him on this outing), this is an Italian-American restaurant, as opposed to an Italian restaurant. Since I can drink good wines at fair prices at home anytime, the opportunity to do so in a restaurant would also have to include the promise of a rewarding meal. And while descriptions of correctly prepared Dover sole, and even gnocchi Bolognese, are very nice, sufficient inducement for this trek they do not make, even with the entertainment value of the decor thrown in. The gotta-go-there list is too long. And yours is very much longer than mine, FG. What made you do this?

If you're using all the right equipment and ingredients, how exactly do you "water down" the 'cue? Since it's cooked over smoke, the only explanation I can think of is to depart from the commandment: "low and slow". I wonder if they parboil any of the meats? Steve, do you hold the same opinion of all Meyer restaurants, that they are "watered down"? Does this include Craft?

I wonder why not? He invested the time, effort and money in equipment and expertise. Why wouldn't he aspire to "realness"? Macrosan is absolutely right that there is a kind of "mysticism", as he puts it, surrounding barbecue. But it's mostly poker game talk, designed to throw the competition off their game. Steve and the FG have said that barbecue is and should be reproducible from venue to venue and from day to day. I agree. The only explanation I can think of for reported inconsistency at Blue Smoke might arise from different cooks not following the instructions or not yet having learned the rhythm of the smoke. If they're taking stuff off the grill too soon in order to meet demand, that would be bad.

Now that I think about it, still photography isn't nearly good enough. This is an event that should be filmed. Where is Fellini when we need him? Are we talking Modernist? Modern? Postmodern? Futurist? Surrealist? Symbolist? Who knows? But I have a feeling this could be one of the defining moments in contemporary gastronomy, whatever its label. Anyone care to take a stab at the lead for the press release?

I'd rather eat it than defend it. I think I said more than a year ago that Italian food hardly needs the likes of me as an apologist. Please have Mrs. P take a picture of you with the mask on, Steve. That's one we'll all want to see.

Chef Blumenthal's reply to my question was not only a good one, but was consistent with the point made repeatedly in this discussion that Italian cooking in large part continues to be driven by tradition and regionalism; and that that is not a bad thing. At the same time, he refers to work being done of the sort that would capture the attention of cutting edge enthusiasts, thus confirming, or at least encouraging our suspicion that this aspect of Italian cuisine may be under-reported or under-investigated.

They all (which is to say a lot of artists, famous and otherwise) had a studio in France until the War, Steve. Then, most of them worked in New York. Francesco's comments about a certain kind of restaurant in Itay are illuminating and welcome, but they fall into the trap of Steve's criteria, or those which he inferred from the FG's original question. No cookbooks in English, no English language (or other than Italian language) press, no international "buzz", no advancement of technique as defined, etc. Rather, it might be interesting to hear in some detail about what is available at these restaurants named, and to consider it on its merits, and in relation to the rest of Italian cooking, as well as cooking elsewhere. I guess for the time being, we have this to look forward to.

This is always interesting to me, RP. In my experience, most places offer a six ounce pour. Some allow the server some discretion. At one place in Sonoma recently, there was a note on the menu: "We pour a five ounce glass of wine".

To the gastrotourists: sorry; you're looking in the wrong place. For the rest of your reply, thanks, Steve. That ends it for me. Pasta for dinner tonight with a sauce made of chicken gizzards. Let me see... if I put the sauce through a chinois, add some cognac and maybe some nuggets of black truffle, then pipe it into pastry cornets...

Why is it still puzzling? Haven't a number of good reasons been put forth? And I have this question: Is there any reason that Italian cooking *should* be relevant, as it has been peculiarly defined for this discussion? If we just say, yet again, that, no, it's not relevant as defined, is that not sufficient? Can't it just be what it is?

No, Steve, you didn't say that. I was simply pointing out their existence as an interesting analogy with the discussion we've been having about food. As for being a secret, I was referring to the marketplace, which, with certain notable exceptions - Carlo Mollino and first quality Murano glass, for example - has tended to undervalue Italian furniture and decorative arts, although not so much anymore. But what about this: are the greatest chefs of Spain - the ones you are interested in - producing great Spanish food? Likewise England?

The discussion might now benefit from a turn towards Tonyfinch's remark that advanced restaurants in Spain and England, for example, are in these countries, but not OF them. Might it not be the case that indigenous cooking in these countries is no further along than it is in Italy, and perhaps less so? Is Tonyfinch on to something when he talks about a "pan European culinary avant garde movement". Is this movement, if it exists, influenced by the French approach to chefdom and restauranteurship (is that a word?). Maybe FG's original question might now be seen as whether any European country's cuisine is relevant to the greater wave that is sweeping over haute cuisine as it is practiced in countries other than France. By the way, Steve, Italian furniture and decorative arts of the 20th century has long been a well-kept, spectacular secret, maybe for reasons related to this discussion. Also, I don't know anyone in the middle class who can afford Pierre Chareau.

As I've said, I took no offense. I usually prefer to put my own foot in my mouth. I would just say that, rather than changing positions easily, I would call it learning as I go and failing to clean up behind myself. I think the cook/chef distinction is an interesting avenue for investigation, particularly as regards economic and social differences between France and Italy and their respective restaurant cultures.