danlepard

Hello Michelle, The idea is to stretch and fold the dough during its long 3 hour rise, rather than to give the dough a "knock back" in the old-fashioned way. From para 3 on, ignore the words "leave in a warm place" and instead leave the dough somewhere cool - at about 18C - 20C if that's possible.*** If your kitchen is very warm then you cut the yeast to a third of a sachet - here in the UK we rarely get hot days and kitchens are typically chilly. The point of combining a soft flour with a strong bakers flour is that it should result in a less tough and elastic crust after a relatively short (3 hour) rise. The reason we make a pre-ferment is slightly more complicated that simply testing the reliability of the yeast. All dry yeast benefits from being mixed with warm water - some manufacturers suggest at temperature of around 34C (93F) - in order to soften the outer skin that surrounds each grain of dry yeast. If you mix 3g (1/2 sachet) dry yeast with 50ml warm water (34C) and a few tsp flour and leave it for 15 minutes, then add this bubbly mixture to 500g flour and 325ml water (at 20C), the result will be as if you have used 7g fresh yeast. But if you were to mix the dry yeast into 20C water the action would not just be slower but would take 3/4 hour or so for the fermentation to kick in before rapidly gaining momentum. Mixing the dry yeast with warm water will keep the ferment steady without a sudden ramp in speed after an hour. It's been a long time since I had a good look at this recipe, and I would rewrite it if I could - though now it's not possible as publishers are very keen to extract to most out of the printing plates and tend to just reprint the same text again and again. The days of errata slips and corrections are probably over. regards dan ***The confusion in the text happened because I was working with a co-author (this is usually shorthand for a brilliant, experienced food writer) Richard Whittington, trying to explain this strange method of stretching and folding the dough which at that time (1998) was rather uncommon. Now I write every word myself.

Yumi (110 George Street, London, W1, near Marble Arch, tel 0871 4260490) is very good but, if you go for a complex meal, breathtakingly expensive. For two (a friend who spoke Japanese to guide me) with maybe 2 bottles sake it came to nearly £300. And I left feeling a little bit peckish...

Sometimes profanities soften through time and usage - this is one I read last week and it makes clear that the taste of the food was lost in butter: If you were to cut the quotation at "...nor touch it for the butter sauce." would it still be so clear? I would guess that the author is using profanity to capture the voice of the fictional character the diary satirizes.

I went to it the first week it opened back end-February (I think) this year. Great big good mains, odd frilly garnishes on plates, desserts a bit rich at the end. It's a family friend who's opened it, Lauraine set up some of the first Mexican restaurants in Melbourne in the 70s, then got ripped off by her (then) husband and business partner. So this is her comeback. Terribly friendly and sweet service. Found a blog that mentions them here: http://viciousange.blogspot.com/2006/07/co...th-fitzroy.html Dan

Anyone been to Coyote Cafe, Nicholson Street, Fitzroy North? I went when it opened earlier this year and wondered how it's settling?

You could ask jackal10 if he might set up a Saturday bake from his wood-fired oven

Donyeokl has pointed out that the amount of water in the printed recipe for Pane Pugliese , in the Q&A August 2003, here: http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?showtopic=30269 (right at the bottom) is too low, somehow I lopped off 75g of water from the amount required. The water in the recipe should now read "175g water" and not "100g water" - taking the total amount to 62%. regards Dan

The person to credit for the chocolate at Melt is Damian Allsop, the talented and experienced pastry chef who set up and runs the chocolate production. Bill simply helped a little on days when it all got too busy, and when help that talented is offered you don't say no. I know that Bill would agree that he's hardly been the "figure in the background", so to be fair you need to credit Damian for the chocolate you taste at Melt. regards, Dan

They're rather wonderful, Devlin. Beautiful texture inside and a lovely crust. b x Dan

Me too, Adam. I was told by an editor who worked on Freson's "A Taste of France" that the way it was compiled gave the pictures their remarkable angle. Freson was initially commissioned by The Sunday Times Magazine to spend a year simply photographing what he felt was remarkable, or typical, or endangered aspects of French food and dining, and only after the photographs taken and edited were the writers assigned to explain with essays what was shown the in photographs. Dan

If I can re-phrase your question, and make it two: Do you need to use flour with a very high gluten content to have that chewy irregular structure in some artisan bread? No - certainly there are bakers working traditionally in France and Italy (bread more often seen in markets that in retail bakeries), using local flour with a lowish gluten content. The baguette demo here: http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?showtopic=73591 uses very fast mixing that causes a oxidation that (to cut a very, very long complicated story short) makes most of the gliadin and glutenin bond - effectively making softer flour stronger. There are other chemical interactions at work in Jack's recipe that effect gluten development too. Do you need to extensively develop the dough in order to have that chewy irregular structure in some artisan bread? Yes - but time and temperature are important factors too, as the structure is created by fermenting organisms and the subsequent gasses held as bubbles by the gluten. The gassing and division rate of these organisms (bacteria and yeast) will be affected by temperature, available natural sugars and time - extend this process without totally exhausting the available sugars (this leads to a very pale loaf) and that will give the best result. So I would say that it is always best to think of dough development as a process that begins when water is added and ends on baking, and that mixing is just one part of that process and itself subject to factors that affect the dough development. b x Dan

What about stirring a spoonful into 1/2 cup water with a little vinegar added, and watching to see if it foams or aerates? Dan x

If you have the time to make it one day, do look at the lemon curd thread here: http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?showtopic=44015&hl= with many recipes, photographs and comparisons that make it easier to follow. Dan

Excellent, what a great crust - I think I can spy a few little blisters on the surface, always a good sign. Not too much flour on the surface, another good thing. Very impressive. Dan

Hello Dimitry, Unfortunately I can't give the specific recipe or method as its part of work I did for a small bakery. But in basic simple terms increase the water in your recipe** here: http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?showto...dpost&p=1091247 by 25ml (in the final dough) each time you make the loaf, use a little oil on your hands and the worksurface to discourage the dough from sticking during the initial brief kneading and folding, and instead of using just white bakers flour cut it with 30% mix of wholemeal and rye flour. Each time you make the dough, with a little more water, it will be much stickier to handle and will require a little patience: I plonk the sticky dough on the oiled surface, oil my hands and briefly fold the dough in upon itself as a sort of simple knead then, after 10 - 12 seconds of this, replace it in the bowl and leave it a further 10 minutes. I repeat this twice more, re-oiling the worksurface and my hands each time just to make the task less of a bother. Then after 45 minutes I upturn the dough onto a re-oiled surface and fold it in by thirds, using a scraper if it sticks. But as soon as the yeast start fermenting and producing gas bubbles the dough will start to feel more resilient and springy as it puffs up. **I'll call it your recipe because I was just trying to match the information you gave in your post here: http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?showto...dpost&p=1091237 though it's simply a old "sponge and dough" method of bread baking. Gradually each attempt, made with a slight increase in the amount of water you mix the dough with, will produce a loaf with a slightly more irregular and open crumb structure. And someway before the increase in water turns the dough into a batter you will achieve the texture seen above. One thing to remember is that the more water you use in you dough, the softer and more flowing the resulting dough will be. This means that during the final rise it will need to have the sides supported to ensure it keeps some height. I use linen-lined baskets rubbed heavily with rye flour to stop the dough from sticking. regards Dan

Hello McDuff, Turning the dough at intervals during the fermentation period, after doughmaking but prior to shaping, acts to (a) keep the fermentation progressing evenly by gently redistributing both yeast and unfermented matter, and (b) compress and stretch gasses from fermentation to give the dough more resilience. Both are particularly important if you are trying to work with flour that has low glutenin resilience made into soft dough with a high water content - think soft local flour made into a sloppy dough that ferments quicker (the more water, the faster the fermentation). It's worth remembering that before commercial yeast was commonly available bakers had to be very sharp on every knack that would help them keep fermentation moving swiftly along through an 7 - 8 hour process. This was also before refrigeration became cheaply available. One baker writing in 1909 described his best method this way: "Make into a nice smooth dough, and do not be afraid to stretch it and fold it well. At the end of 1 1/2 hours knock it up by stretching and folding, as distinct from punching - do not punch it. In another hour repeat the folding, and in still one more hour scale off. This is a total of five hours to scaling time, but it will take at least one more hour to clear it thoroughly after scaling and handing up. We are great believers in giving the dough a rest after scaling and handing before finally shaping". If we compare this picture taken in the late 1920s: with this one (a 400g loaf, almost a lb.) I baked last year using the stretch and fold method: there are similarities in the crumb texture, which are in part due to following the same method. The stretching and folding wont act as a substitute for dough mixing but as an addition to it. No extra step is necessary if you're already happy with any loaf - I imagine you would say, as I would say, "just leave it alone, it's perfect as it is". But if your ingredients are acting a bit sluggishly, if the flour doesn't seem mix into dough with much natural resilience and spring, and if the dough texture appear closed and dense then a slight increase in the water content and folding in the few hours prior the shaping will help. I find it allows me to regularly use soft flour from local grain and get a very good result. regards Dan

Hello Betty, Yes, just refrigerate the dough after the first 3 blasts of kneading. As the dough will be getting fragile after its night in the fridge it can't really hold up to much more manipulation. So you wont quite get the extreme aeration but you'll gain in flavour, and that surely must be at the top of a baker's wish list. With the kneading, one bit that I omitted was that I prefer to knead the dough on a lightly oiled surface with a little oil rubbed on my hands and the upper surface of the dough as well. This makes kneading a sticky dough free from anxiety, and inhibits you from feeling tempted to add more flour. You can simply use a scraper and bash on through the stickiness, but I find using oiled hands and worksurface a hassle-free approach. Dmitry, Breads carefully made with 100% whole-wheat flour do taste great as they will have a much more complex flavour that bread made with white flour, and well as being much more complex for the stomach to digest. But essentially it has to be a shorter process because there is so much less gluten in to hold gas. You can prolong the fermentation but not as long as you could with white flour, and don't expect as light a texture. But there are ways around the texture problem. Jackal10 has a very curious recipe for an open-textured spelt loaf in the thread here: http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?showtopic=80782 and the result here: http://forums.egullet.org/uploads/11366111...0_135_21132.jpg (you may need to be logged in to see the picture) I can't think of a reason why you couldn't replace the white flour in the preferment with spelt to make it 100% wholemeal, Great looking loaves McDuff. Do you work as a chef/pastry chef? regards Dan

Yes, LBH, I would agree - the bulges on the garlic bread look rather good though. Betty, as Jack says, you can refrigerate the dough and I find that produces an even moister texture (though the loaf as is stills seems quite soft 2 days later). Refrigerate the dough after giving it 3 brief 10 sec kneads at 10 minutes intervals - I place it in a covered bowl. In the morning I take it out, shape it immediately and when it's doubled (2 - 3 hours at room temperature), bake it. You can leave the preferment overnight at room temperature. In that case reduce the yeast to 1/8 tsp - 1/4 tsp. But not "at any time". The reason is that, as soon as you add flour to water, or yeast to flour and water, you start a process that will be affected by time, temperature and the characteristics of the ingredients, and stopping or restarting the process. Do read this rather extraordinary and clear article by Shirley O. Corriher on the baking process: http://www.taunton.com/finecooking/pages/c00053.asp I've only just stumbled upon it after reading the thread here: http://forums.egullet.org/index.php....showtopic=58287 Dmitry, I wouldn't change the recipe too much, but rather be clear that the resulting bread would be quite different in texture to that made with 100% high gluten white wheat flour. Think of wholewheat flour, even wholewheat flour labelled "suitable for breadmaking" as low gluten flour because the ground wheat endosperm, that contains the gliadin and glutenin that give the dough its elasticity, will make up a much small percentage of the total flour because little of the bran, germ or fibre has been sifted out. So, effectively, you get less protein in it. So less gluten to trap air, less sugars to fement, less oven spring. Mix the dough slightly warmer, cut the rising time before shaping down to 45 min - 1 hour, or until you see the first signs of bubbling aeration in the dough, then shape, bake when it has barely doubled in height. regards Dan

Just a quick survey...the word chocolatier, how do you prefer to pronouce it? choc-lat-i-air or chocolat-eer. In the UK at the moment there is a chocolate manufacturer that talks about their chocolateers, much like mouseketeers. Have I missed something? Dan

Glad I could help - looks really good, great texture Dan

Yes Anna you're right (have just corrected the recipe). As I just quickly sketched out the recipe and, having no bread in the house, I though "I'll go and make it". Tasted so good, made with supermarket bread flour. Doronin, try not double yeasting the dough and just rely on the pre-ferment. If it has only been left overnight there will still be a great deal of fermenting power in the mixture. Just extend the bulk fermentation of the final dough until, when you cut into the dough, you see a clear network of bubbles. Then shape as you prefer, let the dough double in volume and bake. regards Dan

Sorry if I wasn't too clear - yes it is a good idea because you will have more yeast cells in the mixture by the end of the 12 hour (overnight) period. But the apparent lack of activity in the mixture doesn't mean they've all died - just that there is little left to ferment. When you scrape all of the mixture in with fresh flour and water to make the final dough you will find the mixture starts rising again. Yes, it is often good to leave the preferment overnight. regards Dan

Hi Dimitry, I find the best way to measure very small amounts of yeast in is measuring teaspoons, the sort that come in a set on a ring. In the past I had editors (and readers) saying to me, "ah, but you're so keen on measuring water and flour by weight you must give the yeast by weight too". Like you, I find it difficult outside of a laboratory to measure 3.85g yeast. So I try to give spoon measures always. But they are measuring spoons rather than tea and coffee spoons. I've been alternating dry and active dry yeast with identical measures and haven't found a big difference. The big difference between the two is the particle size and the way that affects the time needed to initiate fermentation. But there is no difference between the yeast strain used in the manufacture of both "dry" and "active dry". One of the large generic yeast manufacturers, DCL, recommend replacing "active dried yeast by up to 75% by weight of instant [fast acting] yeast, depending on the breadmaking processes employed and climatic conditions." I haven't found that 25% difference to be too critical and for ease have been using the same volume of each, testing it both ways to be sure. Roughly every two hours, in a stable mixture, the yeast will multiply rather than set spores (an action yeast takes when the conditions suddenly change, like a big temperature drop). So I would say that after two hours you have the potential for more yeast to ferment in the fresh ingredients added when you mix the final dough. I don't think I would agree that the "preferment at moment of mixing is in its most active state". If you leave the mixture overnight at a constant temperature, what you'll be left with is a lot of yeast and no food for the cells to ferment as well as stray bacteria that would have multiplied in the mixture. The doughing, if you like, is the refreshment. Going back to your original question, the drop in activity partially reflects a drop in the amount of available fermentable material. regards Dan

Right. I think what is happening is that your dough is exhausted. A combination of a commercially yeasted preferment and additional yeast added to the final mix means that you should be able to reduce the total amount of yeast used to a fraction of what straight dough needs. Though I can't really talk for other bakers, when I'm folding the dough it occurs at intervals during the one-and-only rise before shaping, and it has the added benefit of speeding the fermentation by gently remixing yeast and unfermented matter. So I'm (a) only ever getting one rise out of the dough, (b) using very little yeast, and © the dough is still cool (21C - 23C) resilient and elastic before shaping. The difference between 3/4 tsp and 2 tsp yeast is quite alot, and I can't really grasp the need to add more than the minimum necessary to achieve a slow gradual rise. Do measure accurately. Do try and get over the "I don't want to be precise but want to achieve excellence" attitude - I know what you're talking about as it used to be my mantra. You grandmother might have both claimed to be casual in her approach, and appeared to be when you watched her, but much like watching an experienced pianist her well-practiced ways simply made it "look" easy. Measuring a cup or a tsp wont take away from your enjoyment if they lead to a better result. Try something like this: for the pre-ferment 250g bread flour 250ml warm water at 30C* 1 x 5ml tsp dry yeast leave for 2 hours at 21C - 24C until the mixture bubbles up and just begins to drop back down for the dough 300ml cold water at 18C - 20C 550g bread flour 2 x 5ml tsp salt *both instant and easy blend yeast work best using warm water as it helps to break down the outer surface around the granules, and in turn allow the yeast to hydrate and begin fermentation quickly. It will happen still occur at lower temperatures (+4C upwards), but will need a much longer. Overnight in the refrigerator, with dry yeast, does produce very good dough. Combine the prefement with the cold water then combine this with flour and salt. Leave for 10 - 20 minutes then lightly knead (I favour three very brief 10 minute kneads at 10 second intervals, but it's up to you). Gently stretch and fold the dough every 45 minutes until, when you cut into the dough you see a clear network of bubbles forming (2 hours maybe). And as soon as you get to that point divide and shape the dough for it's final rise. Don't try and give it any more folds. Shape and bake, as you prefer. This is the schedule I used for the bread below: 11.00am Mix pre-ferment 1.15pm mix dough 1.30pm first quick knead 1.40pm second quick knead 1.50pm third quick knead 2.45pm first fold 3.30pm second fold 4.15pm third fold 4.45pm divide, shape and in basket 6.45pm in oven The point is try and reduce the amount of yeast you're using as I think you're seeing the effects of over-yeasting the dough rather than some failing in the fermentative power of the yeast you're using or a conflict with that yeast and other ingredients. **edited to make corrections to kneading (10 seconds rather than 10 minutes x 3) and to add schedule and photographs Let me know how you get on, regards Dan

Hello Doronin, What quantity of yeast are you using to weight of flour? And what temperature (roughly - warm or cold) is the water when you start mixing? Are there any other ingredients in your mix like malt or sugar - I see you call it a plain dough, but some folks have different ideas about "plain"? You use the word "degassing" and I wondered if that is exactly what you mean - does the dough rise up, then you push all of the air out of it, then this is repeated one more time? Dan edit to add more questions