[Preferred flours for homemade pizza dough]

3 minutes ago, Robenco15 said:

I love Neapolitan pizzas, have gotten very good at making them, and will be making dough today actually for pizza tomorrow. I also really like the Mod Pizza recipe and their high hydration recipe for Neapolitan. 

Ah, I totally misread that. Sorry about that.

The Nuvola has been out more than two years, and I still don't completely understand the milling magic behind it.  But I do like the most of the results I see with it, though.  As you can probably guess, I'm a bit of a Neapolitan purist  58-60% hydration, 300W flour, minimal thickness factor, no longer than overnight ferment, 60 second or less bake time.  If you're getting results that you're happy with well outside those parameters, then the Chef's flour and/or the 5 Stagioni might not be worth tracking down.

[Preferred flours for homemade pizza dough]

12 minutes ago, Robenco15 said:

Thanks for this. Do you have any brands or mills you like and recommend?

 

It depends on how deep down the rabbit hole you want to go. 

My favorite flour for NY style is bromated Spring King (Ardent Mills).  It's typically very hard to find, though, and, I've yet to see it available via mail order. It's specs are very similar to bromated Full Strength (General Mills), and that is available via mail order, and some Restaurant Depots carry it.  I see, from other posts, that you're in CT.  Assuming it's Southern CT, Full Strength should be relatively easy for you to find, since Full Strength basically IS New Haven style pizza.  You can make a very respectable New Haven style pie with King Arthur bread flour, which is basically unbromated Full Strength, but, if you want that authentic Pepe's/Sally's taste, you want to use the flour that they use.  

 

I might be evolving on bromated high gluten flours such as All Trumps.  I don't think All Trumps will ever replace Spring King in my top spot for NY style, but, I've seen local places do some fairly impressive things with it.  Joe's, the pizzeria that Mitch posted photos from earlier, is the archetype for All Trumps, low-ish hydration modern NY style slices. Joe's has, imo, slipped in quality during the last couple decades, but, it's still quite formidable, and is a great ambassador for the modern NY style slice.  

That's New York and New Haven.  You recently mentioned being 'converted' from Neapolitan.  I know plenty of folks from CT who don't really resonate all that much with the inherent wetness of Neapolitan pizza.  This being said, with the Koda 16, you basically own one of the only sub $1000 ovens capable of producing legitimate Neapolitan pizza, and I'd be sorry to see you give up on it entirely based on an, imo, horrible recipe that completely ignores tradition.  If you wanted to set the book aside, though, and pursue traditional Neapolitan pizza- a style of pizza everyone should experience at least once, then, for that, my recommended flour would be either the Caputo Chef's/Cuoco flour (not the blue/pizzeria) or the 5 Stagioni pizza Napoletana.

[Preferred flours for homemade pizza dough]

On 11/27/2021 at 9:26 AM, Robenco15 said:

Cairnspring has wonderful high protein flour available online @Chris Hennesif you want to check it out. 

The specs on stone ground flour can be a little misleading.  Basically, wheat has a protein fraction near the hull that doesn't form gluten- but is still counted in the overall protein quantity.  So you can have whole wheat flours that, on paper, appear to be high-ish protein, but that have very little gluten forming protein.  Add to that the fact that the bran in stone ground flour acts like tiny little knives in the dough and cuts through gluten, stone ground/whole grain flour typically doesn't work well for pizza- at least, not on it's own.

Obviously, there are some famous folks that use stone ground flours for pizza- Richer is one, Scarr is another.  But they're very careful to combine stone ground flour with stronger flour and to keep the whole grain flour to a minimum (less than 20%).  They're both using it in small amounts for flavor, not for strength. Scarr is mitigating the damaging effects of the bran by sifting some of it out, which I see Cairnspring doing on it's Glacier Peak variety, which certainly helps avoid some of the bran's gluten destroying properties, but, at the end of the day, stone milling doesn't produce strong flour- at least, not the kind of strong flour you'd want for NY style pizza- or for a more manageable dough at elevated hydration.

[Cooking with Myhrvold and Migoya's Modernist Pizza]

On 11/25/2021 at 12:24 AM, Chris Hennes said:

Ceresota (actually not their high gluten variety, I added 2% gluten to their all purpose).

 

By the time vital wheat gluten has gone through all the processing involved in it's manufacture, it's no longer the equivalent of the native gluten found in high protein flour. It's a little difficult to store huge bags of flour, but the Restaurant Depot in Oklahoma City will have the kind of high gluten flour they use in NY pizzerias- and I believe RD is still open to the public. 

I don't know how nerve-racking your knuckle stretches currently are with this formula/hydration, but, I guarantee you that high gluten flour will make it much easier to handle.

[Cooking with Myhrvold and Migoya's Modernist Pizza]

14 hours ago, Chris Hennes said:

high-gluten flour

 

What brand are you using here?  

[Cooking with Myhrvold and Migoya's Modernist Pizza]

On 11/17/2021 at 9:12 AM, weinoo said:

With such an expensive set of books, well-researched and documented, that is a bit disappointing, in my opinion.

Well researched? Really?   All they had to do was to talk to any NY pizzeria owner to figure out that NY style pizza is never 70% water. Ever.  Even Gemignani (Pizza Bible), with all his shortcomings, knows this. They could have just given Tony a call. And when you get into weaker flours that are commonly available to the home baker, 70% water becomes even more silly. Good luck hand stretching 70% dough made with AP flour. You'd have better luck herding cats.  

From the very first pages of MC, by effectively ignoring centuries of Neapolitan knowledge, Nathan has made it clear that he values innovation more than tradition- and that's not entirely horrible. The innovation they've done has been unbelievably valuable- at least some of it (polydextrose and lecithin in Neapolitan pizza? ).  They didn't invent steel and aluminum for pizza, but they put it on the map.  I would even go as far as to say that, without conveying the role that intense heat plays in the pizza, there would be no Ooni either.  No Nathan, no MC, no renaissance in home pizza making.

 

Kenji suffers from a similar malady.  Absolutely brilliant guy, but heavily blindered.  Pizza is science, but it is also artisanal.  An artisan is NOTHING without the knowledge that precedes them. The master bricklayer learned bricklaying from someone else- he or she didn't just lock themselves up in a lab.  Science can function well in a vacuum, but successful food is always collaborative.
 

I haven't read the book- nor have I read this entire thread, but, if they're getting something as simple as NY style hydration wrong, it's indicative of extremely poor research- that they weren't talking to the industry 10 years ago when MC came out, and they don't seem to be talking to them now either. 

[Indian Buffets in Northern NJ?]

I had finally settled in on, and was quite happy with, Mehndi's buffet, but I just called them and it sounds like they've shut down their buffet for good- even post Covid.

 

So, now it's back to the painstakingly arduous task of finding the best buffet in Northern NJ- made even more difficult by the fact that so many places are still waiting to bring their buffets back.
 

Any recs on currently open buffets would be appreciated tremendously.  Parsippany would be preferred due to proximity, but I'll take Edison recs as well.

[Sealed Wire Whisk?]

I'm looking for an all stainless whisk with a length between 7 and 9 inches with an epoxy seal where the wires go into the hollow handle- or some other material that gives it an air tight seal. It seems like every stainless whisk I find on Amazon has a handle that will fill up with liquid if you put it in a dishwasher with the wires facing up.

[Ooni Pizza Oven]

16 hours ago, JeanneCake said:

surprise birthday present for my son who is intent on perfecting his calzones

The best and worst calzone I've ever had came out of a wood fired oven (at Lucali, in Brooklyn).  Best, because the hand dipped ricotta rocked my world, but worst because the intense heat of the oven produced sections of raw dough.  But the parts where the dough was cooked... wow.

The reason I bring this up because, as big of a fan as I am of the Koda 16... I'm not sure I'd buy it for the specific goal of making calzones.  Ooni's don't really have low settings- it's either incendiary, or slightly less than incendiary with the knob at it's lowest.  This means that, for lower temp baking, you have to cycle them off and on.  It's very possible that a calzone might benefit from hotter than your average home oven temps, but, I think the Koda is pushing it.

[Ooni Pizza Oven]

46 minutes ago, blue_dolphin said:

Any recommendations vs what I might purchase elsewhere? 

As big of a fan as I am of the Koda 16, I'm not impressed at all with Ooni's accessories.

First, anodized or not, you don't want an aluminum turning peel.  Aluminum is just way too soft and won't stand up to the wear and tear.  Also, 7" is a little small for turning.  In Naples, turning peels are traditionally 9" or 10". 

This is still a little small

https://us.gozney.com/products/roccbox-turning-peel

but it should be stainless. 7"  should be comfortable for turning a 13" Neapolitan pie- and might be okay for a 16" NY, but I've never tried turning a 16" pizza with a 7" peel, so I can't say for certain.  7" should be fine for retrieving a 16", since you can slide the pizza up the handle a bit.

This piques my curiosity:

https://www.amazon.com/Stainless-Perforated-Turning-Detachable-Handle/dp/B0912JFT7Q/

Very reasonable price, 9", stainless, and has a longer handle that can be unscrewed into a shorter one.  Loving all four of these aspects.  But the reviews. Yeesh.  Dialing in the right gauge metal on a peel can be difficult.  You want it thin enough to cleanly get under the pizza, but, not so thin that the material bends when you go to pick the pizza up.  The review seems to point towards a gauge of metal that might be too thick.  If this is the case, you should be able to sand down the edge to a finer point, but, without having the peel in hand, I can't make any promises.  

https://www.amazon.com/Turning-Stainless-Perforated-Paddle-Handle/dp/B07YXTDXJ3

This is a classic Italian peel at a very reasonable price (these used to typically be $100+) but that 47" handle is rough.  Depending on how the plastic handle is attached, you might be able to take it apart and cut it down to a more reasonable length.  While I like the $34 price tag of the previous peel, this peel feels like a better known quantity.  This is probably what I'd get if I were getting a turning peel.

As far as what to spend your $50 credit on, that's tough.  Bamboo wood peels are worthless.  An infrared thermometer is incredibly useful, but, 40 bucks for a $20 thermometer? They've got a lot of nerve.  

A good wood peel is even more important than a turning peel, btw.  No bamboo (bamboo doesn't absorb moisture as well as other woods).  It also needs to have a thin face/blade- NOT a thick blade with a taper just at the very end.  With a thick blade and a short, stubby taper, the toppings have a tendency to waterfall as you launch the pie. Lastly, you've got a 16" oven, you're going to eventually make 16" pies, which will require a 16" wood peel.

 

Btw, perforated metal peels for launching are overrated.  Wood absorbs moisture and gives you a longer window before the dough starts to stick.  I'm still looking for the peel of my dreams, but, for an Ooni 16, I'd probably go with this:

https://www.amazon.com/American-Metalcraft-4216-Standard-42-Inches/dp/B00G67R72K

Good price, good dimensions, good wood.  It's a little bit clunky, but it's way better than what's available right now. You'll probably need to cut the handle down a bit, though.

[Ooni Pizza Oven]

1 hour ago, Duvel said:

Pretty much so … no sauce, no toppings plus a lot of heat (kind of pita bread effect) …

I'm not sure if you're looking to reduce the puff further, but docking the rim with a fork will reduce the puff considerably.

[Ooni Pizza Oven]

1 hour ago, &roid said:

I have to say the drier dough has been lovely to work with, balled up really nicely after its three hours in bulk. 

 

This is one of the major reasons why you won't find 65% water in any pizzeria in Naples.  Da Michele could never sell 1000 pizzas in a day if the dough was sticky.

Btw, it's possible that you're already taking this into account, but, you want to be careful when working with doughs with different hydrations, since the hydration will impact yeast activity.  The less water, the slower the proof.  In order to reach the same volume/level of fermentaton as the wetter dough, the drier dough will need more time- ideally both in the balled and bulk forms.  Obviously, since the dough is already balled, you can't add time to the bulk this time, but I'd push the balled proof further on the drier dough- maybe as much as an hour longer, if possible.

If you're very comfortable proofing dough and know exactly what peak volume looks like before it starts to overproof/collapse, then you might play around with placing the drier dough in a warmer place so that it's done about the same time as the wetter dough.  But this can be a little riskier, since it's easier to push the dough too much.

[Ooni Pizza Oven]

8 minutes ago, &roid said:

Great advice as always, Scott. That is pretty much my latest iteration to a tee. The only thing I’ve not yet tried is dropping down to 60% hydration. I might do a few balls of this lower water version next weekend… 

 

Anthony is the quintessential purist.  The original gangster's original gangster.  In a way, by basically channeling Raffaele Esposito, he's turning back the clock 130 years.  Sourdough is fundamentally narcissistic masochism, but I do respect his obsession.  And, while I don't have a time machine, I'm fairly confident that the only difference between archaic Neapolitan and modern Neapolitan pizza is the leavening- that it was most likely 60% then, as it is now.

Don't get me wrong, you can make beautiful 70% hydration pizza.  But... if you want the pizza in that particular photo, it's not going to happen at 70% water.

[Ooni Pizza Oven]

5 hours ago, &roid said:

never had the pleasure of eating them but that look is pretty much what I’m aiming to replicate (eventually…!)

 

That particular pie is sourdough, but the look can be recreated with commercial yeast exponentially easier.   If that's the look you're trying to replicate, I can't recommend a traditional Neapolitan approach strongly enough.  This means:

 

W290 flour (Caputo Red works well, but any Italian 00 with a strength of W290 is fine- just make sure you absolutely never use English flour).

58%-60% hydration

Straight dough with a bulk and a balled ferment

No refrigeration- ever
The right dough ball size - typically no more than about 250g for a 13" pie

Using enough yeast and enough time to get peak volume, but not so much time you get big black spots (the Italians call them measles). For W290 flour, this means proofing the dough no longer than about 24 hours

A blazingingly hot oven - beyond the recommended 20 minutes in the instructions

A quality turning peel - stainless, round, no smaller than 8" and no larger than 10"

[Chinese Pickles and Preserves]

27 minutes ago, Tropicalsenior said:

Have you ever thought of going to a Chinese restaurant supply store? We have one here in Costa Rica that sells all types of pickling crocks. There must be at least one within driving area of you.

 

I could be wrong, but I don't think restaurants are pickling- it's more like a home hobbyist thing- like homebrewing.  I'm also not aware of any Chinese restaurant supply stores in my area (that would be awesome if there was).  But Restaurant Depot might have something.  Maybe. Thanks.

Chinatown (NYC) isn't too terribly far, but the tolls across the river would make for a very expensive crock.

[Chinese Pickles and Preserves]

I've been contemplating pickling for years, and have finally reached a place where I'm ready to take the plunge. The issue is, though, that I can't find a container I'm happy with.

 

I like the traditional Chinese design:

https://www.amazon.com/Traditional-Fermenting-4000ml-Gallon-Airlock/dp/B01FRBTU7K

 

But 50 bucks?!

 

There's also these:

https://www.walmart.com/ip/One-Gallon-Wide-Mouth-Jar-with-Lid-and-Twin-Bubble-Airlock-Set-of-2/194888232?u1=&oid=223073.1&wmlspartner=2z//F4WtKZw&sourceid=17269632240084465373&affillinktype=10&veh=aff

and, while I like the fact that, once the fermentation is over, you can swap out the lid and put it in the fridge, it's just not as sexy.

I'm in Northern NJ.  I have a pretty good local Taiwanese grocer, but cursory investigations haven't turned up anything.

Thoughts?

[Making sugar-free sorbet?]

16 hours ago, henris42 said:

I was thinking first that stabilizers would help - as they do improve the texture when using just sugar.

 

I've been using Louis François Super Neutrose. I gather it has most of the ingredients suggested above...

 

Anycase with that and erythritol I ended up with a brick of ice... 😁

 

As I said before, hydrocolloid gums (like Super Neutrose) can be used to replace sugar- not just augment sugar based recipes.  But you need considerably more- but, not too much since they can be laxating.  And I wouldn't just ramp up the Super Neutrose, either, since, although it's hydrocolloid gums, the first ingredient is sugar, which works against your sugar free goal.

Gelatin is not a bad idea- for some of the lifting.  To it's credit, it's not laxating, but if you go too heavy with it, it will become chewy.  

When it comes to gums, much like sweeteners, the more the merrier.  Acacia, guar, carob, xanthan, locust bean, alginate.  carageenan.  Agar can get a little complicated, but maybe even some agar as well.

With enough gelatin and the right amount of a wide variety of gums, you might be able to cut the inulin in half.  Half as much inulin should be more tolerable. 

The other thing I'd play around with would be allowing the sorbet to warm up a bit before serving it.  The warm up only works with the additional ingredients, though. since it will require some structure as it thaws.

[Ooni Pizza Oven]

10 minutes ago, rotuts said:

interesting

 

the OoniPro 16 "  is not featured on their web site

 

but they do have a cover for it further down , sold out.

 

wonder if they stopped making this model ?

It's sold out

https://ooni.com/products/ooni-pro

Even if the Pro were in stock, I'd still recommend the Koda 16.@Kerry Beal has made some beautiful pies with the Pro, but the thermodynamics in the Koda are superior.   For it's dimensions, the gas burner on the Pro is a little underpowered and the burner's torch-like flame requires considerably more turning than the L-shaped pipe burner on the Koda, which extends around two sides of the pizza. The size of the Pro does give it a bit more flexibility when it comes to other foods, but, if you're investing in an oven like this, you should really be looking for the best possible configuration for pizza, not other foods- imo.

And, try not to be too enamored with using wood.  There's a common misconception that wood adds flavor to pizza. It does not, since the pizza bakes below the layer of smoke. Wood is also much dirtier and far harder to get consistent temps with.  The Ooni wood options are especially problematic, since, when you place them on a table, it puts the top of the chimney at face level, so, when the wind shifts, you're breathing in smoke. I know plenty of folks who make stunning pies with the Karu, but I also know plenty of folks who curse the hassle that wood introduces.  The Koda makes the same stunning pies with a fraction of the hassle.

[Ooni Pizza Oven]

23 hours ago, Kerry Beal said:

Learning curve starts on baking bread today

 

As you're probably figuring out, there really is no truly low setting for an Ooni.  At least, not with the propane burner.  If you're burning wood, you could probably control the quantity of wood to limit the heat output. A gas burner isn't really happy on it's lowest setting for a 4-6 minute NY style pizza  and a loaf of bread, even a small one, will be exponentially less heat/a longer time than that.  For NY style, the best workaround is to cycle the oven on and off, so, in theory, if you wanted to babysit it, you could try taking the cycling route. 

If anyone could figure out how to do great bread in an Ooni, it would be you, but, I think this might be more trouble than it's worth.  At least, not a loaf.  Naan or pita-  world class, but, a loaf...

If you're truly dead set on a loaf, I'd invest in a flameguard:

https://ooni.com/products/flame-guard-v1-3

This one is currently sold out, and isn't the right size for the Pro, but, something along these lines will help even out the flame and give you less localized burning. I would look for something pretty tall so that it sends the heat towards the ceiling and not at the loaf.

[Is there a type of cookie that uses only egg yolks and no other liquids or fats?]

Were these cookies baked twice?

My South German grandmother made her spritz cookies with only egg yolks- no other liquid. I believe, much like pie crust, she refrigerated the dough for a bit to help it form a more solid mass.

[Refrigerated pizza dough: how long should it rest on the counter before baking?]

On 6/4/2021 at 11:22 AM, TdeV said:

Well, I'm going to try 3.25 hours @ElsieD, maybe 3.5 hours. Let's report back!

I'm assuming, from the radio silence, 3.25-3.5 hours was a success.  This being said... dough that fights you after a 2 hour warm up could indicate other issues beyond too short of a warm up.  Could you share your recipe?

[Refrigerated pizza dough: how long should it rest on the counter before baking?]

On 6/4/2021 at 8:01 PM, IndyRob said:

Ideally, you'll take the dough out of the fridge and re-ball it.  Then allow it to rest - covered - for at least 2 hours.

 

Balling dough activates a gargantuan amount of gluten- so much so that the dough will never fully relax in 2 hours.  Every dough is different, but, in general, you never want to re-ball dough within 6 hours of stretching it- and, even then, you don't want to re-ball cold dough, since cold dough loses its tackiness, which risks a pinch-shut that doesn't completely hold.

And, although rests can help stubborn dough, dough that's just barely rested enough to stretch won't give you the same oven spring as a more relaxed/extensible dough that was only balled once- prior to putting it in the fridge.

[Making sugar-free sorbet?]

On 5/30/2021 at 11:13 PM, jimb0 said:

it's too bad that erythritol, for several reasons, fares so poorly in frozen desserts in quantity because i find it the best tolerated in terms of something that is bulking.

I think, because granular erythritol looks so much like sugar, it's easy to fall under the misconception that it provides bulk.  It doesn't.  The molecular weight for sugar is 342 g/mol, while erythritol is 122.  You might be tempted to think that erythritol provides 1/3 the bulk, but, it's way worse than that, since the relationship isn't linear. At room temp, 370g of erythritol is soluble in 1 liter water (1/5th the solubility of sugar). If you were to dissolve 370g sugar in 1 liter of water, it wouldn't be super viscous, but it would clearly not be pure water.  370g of erythritol, on the other hand, would be indistinguishable from pure water.  That's how little bulk erythritol is bringing to the table.  

Erythritol has only one purpose in desserts- in small enough quantities to keep it from being crystallized (crystallization = no sweetness + offputting endothermic/cooling effect) it's invaluable for bumping up the synergy with other sweeteners and elevating the overall quality of sweetness.  Fats, protein and starches all impact erythritol's crystallization, so there aren't any hard and fast rules.  Keeping my erythritol in proportion to the polyd has worked pretty well for me.  7 parts polyd to 1 part erythritol, in solution, tends to keep the erythritol from misbehaving.

[Making sugar-free sorbet?]

On 5/30/2021 at 10:59 AM, henris42 said:

Eryrithol and Stevia combined gave a very nice taste though, only problem is the texture. Could there some completely different substance (non-sugar) that would just give the texture and keep it scoopable - with near-zero taste?

When it comes to achieving the textural qualities of sugar, there is no free lunch.  Either the product digests, and raises blood sugar, or it doesn't and it causes digestive issues.  As I said, erythritol is already laxating, so inulin is not that dramatic of an addition- and is certainly not anything bordering on toxic.  If you eat legumes/artichokes, you're eating inulin.  Sugar free desserts involve a certain amount of personal responsibility.  You need to inform your guests and/or customers what ingredients you're using, but it's up to them to make the decision as to whether or not to consume it.  It's like serving lentil  soup to guests.  It's up to you to tell them it's lentil soup, but it's up to your guests to forgo it if they typically have issues digesting legumes.

Hydrocolloid gums like acacia are sometimes used to mimic the texture of sugar, but those are laxating as well.  

[Making sugar-free sorbet?]

2 hours ago, jimb0 said:

depending on what's easy to find for you, you might also consider playing around with polydextrose / poly-D instead of, or in addition to, inulin. but again, that's a personal thing as inulin is difficult for me to eat beyond one or two grams.

Polydextrose and I go way back.  I was the first online advocate for baking with polydextrose at home.  I bought a 50 lb. bag in 2004 and am still baking with that same bag today (it's clumped into a single mass that's hard as a rock, but I can break pieces off with a hammer). I've had inulin in my pantry all this time as well, but, I'd never betray my beloved polyd.  This being said, polydextrose would most likely be impossible to find in Finland, while here's a link for inulin:
 

https://iconfit.fi/toode/iconfit-inulin-400g-kasulik-kiudaine/

As far as tolerability goes, inulin and polyd are very close molecular cousins.  Polyd is polymerized glucose, while inulin is polymerized fructose.  Long chain sugars shouldn't really cause dramatically more or less issues than other long chain sugars.  Not that I'm discounting your experience.  I think, though, that if you look at most people, all things being equal, polyd and inulin should digest somewhat similarly- ie, they should be fine up to a certain dose.  

Is it possible that you might have built up a tolerance to polyd since you eat it more frequently, but, don't eat inulin as frequently?