robyn

OK - so you cheat having a Spanish as first language wife. We had to start from scratch . We get by fine in Spanish in most places - it's almost a necessity to speak Spanish in Miami for business purposes. It's just difficult sometimes to understand the very idiomatic Cuban or Puerto Rican Spanish (it's much easier in Spain - or talking with people from places like Columbia). And - we did fine in Italian when my husband was current. French is always a problem. No matter how much you study - the French will always make you think you haven't studied enough - that they can't possible understand you. They're worse than Jewish mothers in terms of guilt. With regard to menu readers - I bought some very good ones back in the 1970's. Written by a fellow named Al Ellison. He was a Cornell hotel school grad/law school grad who lived in Miami Beach. I met him years later when we wound up living in the same condo. He's older than us - and was a "foodie" before there was such a thing as a foodie. His readers are excellent (still have them) - not at all like more commercial books - they actually helped us to read menus! I'm not sure whether he's dead or alive now - but I'd bet a few bucks that the books are out of print. They're worth looking up on a web site like Alibris. I'm sure they're out of date in terms of newer trendier dishes at the most expensive restaurants - but they'll cover all the basics of a local cuisine. Take care, Robyn

Hope you don't mind some questions. What do you think the signs of the New Dining Parsimony are? And to what do you attribute the Parsimony - if it's something other than trying to eke out a profit in a business where it has always been difficult to make a profit - and where it's become increasingly difficult the last couple of years? I live in a golf resort area which is a suburb of a metropolitan area - and I know business spending at hotels/restaurants went into a big tail spin for about 2 years. It started to come back this spring - but it still hasn't recovered to pre-2000-2001 levels. Even our best restaurant - it's not comparable to the best in New York of course - but it's pretty good - run by a former head chef at the local Ritz Carlton - has been forced to sign up with IDine to try to attract customers Monday-Thursday. Also - what - in your opinion - are the principal hallmarks of the El Bulli "way of cooking" (I am sure that I will stumble on a disciple of the school - if I haven't already - and I'd like to understand what the chef is trying to accomplish with the food I'm eating). Thanks, Robyn

According to my wife the supersition is that for every black eye pea you eat on New Years day, you get one day of good luck that year. Makes me wonder how large a serving 365 black eyed peas is I've never counted - but 365 sounds like a lot. I will have to count when I cook on New Year's. On the other hand - it's December now - and things have been ok up to now this year (knocking on lots of wood <g>). Don't know where you live - but where we live - in north Florida - it's now possible to get fresh black eyed peas in the supermarkets this time of year. They're very tasty and quick cooking. So there's no excuse not to make the dish (you can even get it in the pot during a football half-time on New Year's Day). Robyn

I'm not familiar with everything they make - don't make shopping a full time job <smile>. I stop by the factory outlet shops once in a while to buy glassware. Our water wrecks glasses pretty quickly - so I don't like to spend a lot of money on them. Can't say that the store has Odin in stock - but I recall seeing Variation V and Torun and perhaps half a dozen others there last time I was there. The store's in St. Augustine FL - so if you're looking for something in particular - you can call. Note that I have an older set of Variation V - and although the new stuff looks like the old stuff - it doesn't have the same "heft". So I wouldn't try to match new stuff to my older stuff (don't know what the story is with Odin). Robyn

Well, since you desire more ...... You can go here next time you are in town. The place is wonderful and we are lucky to have it. Incidentally, I know I am a local and all, but most people these days walk around down there pretty worry free. But I know what you mean. Thanks for the tip. I was just looking up the touring schedule for the new Diane Arbus show - and unfortunately - the closest it will be to us is Houston. Would have preferred New Orleans. By the way - I didn't find the area threatening. It was just hot - and there weren't enough places I could duck into to get a dose of AC! Robyn

Rodriguez has opened a restaurant in Scottsdale AZ (see today's WSJ) - and - according to a NYT article this week - he will be opening a new restaurant in Miami very soon. We used to dine at Yuca frequently. It was very imaginative and a lot of fun - high priced compared to the run of the mill Cuban restaurant in Miami - but certainly inexpensive compared to lots of other places. Robyn

Exactly. A good example of what one really good destination type place can do is the development of the Warehouse District/upper CBD in New Orleans. The World's Fair (unfairly and highly underrated) was hoped to be the spark, but it was another 5 or six years before someone finally caught on to the idea that if you have a real destination, people will come. Prior to the opening of Emeril's, there had been very few places of note that had been able to make a go of it for a very long time (including the much missed Esther's, which was open for about two years). After Emeril had his first real success, places started popping up all over (greatly helped by a Warehouse to Resedential building boom) and now the place(10 years later) is filled with great places to eat. Now the whole district is not only desirable, it is a destination in itself. It only takes one place and I salute the one's that are brave enough (and smart enough if they are right) to take the plunge. The problem with the warehouse district in New Orleans in my opinion is that although there are things to see and do there - we especially liked the D-Day museum our last trip - it's not exactly the kind of area where you get out of the cab - and poke around on foot for a couple of hours - without knowing where you're going. The attractions aren't dense enough for that yet (although perhaps they will be a few years down the road). Robyn

My recollection is a bit foggy - and I hope I haven't mixed up Vancouver with another city (I do that sometimes) - but I recall a fair amount of construction in that general area near the waterfront from last year. Don't know what it will look like when it's all done - but if it winds up being nice - and it probably will - I think just about everything in Vancouver is nice <smile> - you are certainly better off making your real estate deals when everything is still a bit of a mess. You just have to make sure you're capitalized adequately to get things going. Best wishes for a successful venture, Robyn P.S. I am almost sure all the construction I remember was in Vancouver. We lunched with a friend who told us that people who thought they were buying "water-views" were suing because buildings were being put up between their views and the water.

I was a grad student at Carolina in the late 80's and one of my best (non-academic!) experiences was discovering Bill Neal, his cookbooks and Crook's Corner. His cookbooks really inspired my passion in cooking (although I grew up in a family that loves good food and where it is a centerpiece for all celebrations). It was a new cuisine for me (coming from a European immigrant family up north). You may not cook the squirrel but I hope you have tried the incredible chicken and dumplings, sweet potato and buttermilk pie, sweet potato and pear soufllee, hominy w/mushrooms, low country shrimp pate.... hmmm. I could go on. I see people still recommending Crook's Corner. Unfortunately, I haven't been back there for awhile, can anyone comment on Crook's direction, quality, etc since Bill Neal's untimely passing? I haven't been to Crook's Corner since Bill Neal died (haven't even been to North Carolina since my mother-in-law died a few years ago and we wound up moving my father-in-law to a nursing home here near us). The cuisine was a new one for me too (nice Jewish girl who grew up in New York and spent most of her adult life in Miami). A lot of the recipes are kind of complicated for me to make at home - but the ones I make regularly are collards and field peas for New Year's. We get very nice fresh collards and black eyed peas here around that time of the year - so they cook up yummy. And I'm a bit superstitious - have to eat them at least once a year for good luck. I also make a couple of different kinds of sweet potato dishes - and swet potato pie - although I've not used the Neal recipes yet. Regards, Robyn

$200 for a couple's dinner???? WOW! HOW??? What do they eat? 20 course meal?? So how much would it be to try out Fins??? Sorry, still shocked..... Amy Hi Amy - Varmint was right. I wasn't talking about Raleigh/Durham in particular - but the dining world as a whole. Haven't been there lately - but I suspect you could spend close to $200 at La Residence for a complete meal with a couple of bottles of wine. And my larger point was that a lot of people who spend a lot of money on houses have never sampled the world of high end dining - even when they're in a great - but expensive - restaurant city like New York. Take care, Robyn

A suggestion (serious one). If you are going to travel a lot - especially in western Europe - take some language courses. It's not that hard to learn Spanish (it's totally phonetic) - and it's a useful language in the US. Once you know Spanish - it's easy to add some Italian. A little Spanish and Italian both go a long way. People are flattered that you've taken the effort to learn their language. French is a lot harder in my opinion - and I have to say that a little doesn't go a long way. My husband and I both speak Spanish - he better than I (we spent many years in Miami). But whenever we want to pick up a bit of a new language - enough for restaurants - hotels and sightseeing - a semester or two at a local state university will do the trick (with Italian - which isn't offered at our local schools - my husband wound up taking private lessons). Regards, Robyn

We have a Dansk factory outlet store where we live. They carry both firsts and seconds. Just about everything is in stock all the time. Robyn

well, during the long nights near the arctic circle this could be a little confusing. especially if your watch stops. I have a nice quartz watch - never stops <smile>. It would be nice to get back to the beginning of this thread - which started basically - I had one terrific meal - and one pretty terrible meal at this restaurant. I know I'm not going to be in Spain next year (UK yes - Spain no) - so I won't have the opportunity to eat at El Bulli. But if I happen to get to Spain in 2005 - and assuming everything stays the same as it is today - which it should with a 3 star restaurant - they shouldn't change that quickly - do you recommend it - or not - and why? And do you recommend or not recommend a place like La Broche in Miami (branch of same restaurant in Madrid - related by technique and chef to El Bulli)? Why or why not? I will be in Miami next month - so this is definitely doable. Is it a great meal - or simply weird and overrated. (Note today's article in the Wall Street Journal - 10 most overrrated restaurants in the US). Life is full of philosophical questions. When I eat - I don't want a lot of existential philosophy - I just want some good - very good - or great - food (for good I can cook at home - for very good or great - I have to go elsewhere). Robyn

I may be mistaken, but the beauty of a place such as eGullet is that intellectual discussions may be held between those whose eyes and whose cultural values are totally different.

" 'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more or less.' " (Alice's Adventures in Wonderland) Words have meanings. If you look up tapas in my Spanish menu reader - it's defined as "in between meal snacks". In my very large Spanish/English dictionary - it's defined as " an assortment of tidbits and appetizers served with wine or cocktails". If a couple in Madrid asked me and my husband to join them for tapas at 7 - I wouldn't think it necessary to cancel my dinner reservations. So you can define it however you want. To most of the world - the word has a definite meaning. I will just have to remember to ask you for your definition should you ever ask me to join you for tapas (depending on your definition - my husband might not approve <smile>). Ditto for painting. You can call a pile of cow dung a painting if you care to - but it isn't. None of this means that a chef can't be creative - or that someone can't sit at a bar and make a meal out of tapas. Just like one can make a meal out of "appetizers" at a bar. My husband and I frequently do - we'll also sit at a bar and split a meal for one into a meal for two. It can be great fun - and we can have some very good - sometimes excellent food. But it isn't fine formal dining. I frankly don't have a distinct recollection of the hot or cold versus hot/cold places. I just know that my particular favorite was always angullas. Think it was the garlic lover in me that found that particular dish appealing. And I don't recall dishes being reheated. By the way - for those of you who might be in Spain - I mentioned that I disliked it. My reason was simply that I encountered a lot of anti-American sentiment when I traveled there. Too many "OTAN NO" wall paintings in various towns. And I unfortunately speak enough Spanish to be drawn into political arguments when I'm sitting at those tapas bars. Individual people were nice on a one-on-one basis (people in the Basque country would even speak to us in Spanish <smile>). But it got depressing after a while dealing with pervasive anti-American sentiment. No offense intended to your country - that's just how I felt. Robyn

Please note that the Wall Street Journal had some pretty bad things to say about Norman's today. So I take it off my list of suggestions (I haven't been there in quite a while - and I will defer to a recent review). Robyn

I have no idea how old most of the people here are. I'm close to 60. In my experience - tapas was the stuff you ate in Spain between 7 and 9 because you were starved and most restaurants didn't serve dinner until at least 10. I never handled jet lag very well - so when in Spain - my head would usually be in my plate by 10. Found it very practical to eat a nice leisurely lunch - and have tapas for dinner - then go to sleep. I'm not saying the tapas wasn't good. Some of it was very good - but it just wasn't a meal - and it was never meant to be a meal. By the way - I agree with you about the service and reception one should get arriving at a restaurant as a stranger. It may be more or less formal depending on the nature of the establishment - and more or less friendly depending on the nature of the country/city you're in. But it should always be professional. Of course - if one is not a stranger - one should expect more - but - sadly - sometimes you don't get it. I will never ever go to Le Bernardin in New York. It used to have an outpost in Miami where my husband and I dined frequently. Same corner table for two every time. We were good customers. My husband spent some time in a hospital - and the first week I arrived at the restaurant alone - I really needed to get out a bit - I was shown to a horrible table in the bar next to the kitchen door. Had some words with the staff - but Maguy Le Coze wasn't about to give a good table to a woman dining alone - no matter how good a customer she was. Didn't make it through that meal - and never returned - even after my husband recovered. I've received similar treatment at restaurants when traveling on business alone. Perhaps "women dining alone" would be a good general acid test of how restaurants treat their customers. Robyn

Agreed - but sometimes it is very difficult to do when traveling. I don't know about you - but there's only so much food I can eat. On the other hand - last time we hit an excellent restaurant while traveling - we canceled dinner reservations at another place for the second night - and dined there again. I just let it be known that I would prefer lighter dishes the second night - and the staff obliged with recommendations. They even left me with enough room for dessert <smile>. Robyn

Sounds like there's more than a fair amount of cultural relativism in your post. I don't buy it in food - I don't buy it in art - I don't buy it in politics - and I don't buy it in life in general. If everything you hold dear in based on cultural relativisim - then we really don't have anything to discuss - because you're looking at the world through eyes that are totally different than mine. On the other hand - if your cultural relativism is less than absolute - then I have this to say about restaurants (won't bore you with my views about art - politics - or life in general). A great *chef* can make great food. A *great* restaurant turns out *great* food *consistently*. It's not a question if I go on April 12 2001 - the food is great - but if I go on January 27 2002 it's inedible. That is why the Michelin star system makes a lot of sense. A restaurant which sometimes has great food but sometimes has inedible food doesn't in my opinion even warrant one star. I'd rather go to the one "knife and fork" place in town. The food won't be great - but it will almost always be good regional food. There is a big difference between art and food. If I go to an exhibition I don't like -I can just take a quick "look-see" and walk out. Most exhibitions are in museums which have other things to see. And if the museum is terrible - I go can shopping <smile>. If I go to a restaurant - I'm stuck - unless I am so aggrieved that I simply walk out midway through a meal (haven't done that often - but I have on occasion). Walking out on a meal - or a reservation for a second meal - or simply coming away unhappy from a meal - isn't awful if you're in your home town and the restaurant isn't that pricey. It isn't awful if you're on a trip and your expectations of the place were low to start with - and you didn't spend a lot of money. It is awful if you've taken a couple of days out of your life - and spent 500 bucks or more (used to be able to do 3 stars for 200-300 or less - but 500 is more like it these days) - on a meal that isn't wonderful. And that *wonderful* has to be consistent. The impressionists are a bad analogy. When they were new - they could be had for a song - and most didn't sell at all. We're not talking about restaurants which are charging peanuts for their meals. We're talking about restaurants with world class pretentions which are charging world class prices. If a restaurant is worthy of world class prices - it will deliver consistently delicious meals to everyone who dines there. And no I don't care if the chef has a headache on the day my journey takes me to his establishment. That said - I haven't eaten at El Bulli. Probably never will. I don't much like Spain for a number of reasons and will probably never go there again. The closest I will probably get to this school of cooking is La Broche in Miami. I was simply responding to the original poster's (Lizlilee's <sp>?) experiences there (one good and one bad). As for 25 courses - I don't know how big you guys are - but I am a small woman - and the most I can do (while leaving some room for dessert - I love desserts and I always assume until proven otherwise that there's a great pastry chef in the kitchen) is perhaps 5-7 courses with tasting menu size portions. So instead of doing 25 courses - perhaps the chef should just just pick his 5-7-10 best and run with those. I find it interesting that a lot of people eating these 25 course extravaganzas have to refer to notes and sometimes photos to remember what was good - and what wasn't. Sometimes they have to refer back to remember exactly what they've eaten. On my part - I remember every memorable dish/meal I've ever eaten for the last 30 years. Except one. Because I dined at Alain Ducasse on 9/10/2001 - which happened to be my 30th anniversary. Only time I've had a total blackout. I'll have to go back sometime to recapture my memories. Robyn P.S. With regard to restaurants with rooms - agreed there's no Michelin requirement - but they're nice. You don't have to worry about driving after dark in a strange place after too much food and too much wine. Not to mention trying to navigate in a foreign language - or going down 1 1/2 lane roads with high walls on both sides. Sometimes the rooms are an afterthought - a place to crash - sometimes they're a little weird - done up in color schemes that were fashionable 25 years ago - and sometimes they're snazzy and expensive. No matter what they're like - I appreciate stumbling up the stairs instead of trying to navigate a multi-mile drive back to where I'm staying after a great meal.

Robyn's quote was a bit out of context. Here's the paragraph from which it was taken: The poster was describing her attitude toward a repeat visit to el Bulli, one at which, unlike her earlier visit which she found delightful, was a disappointment. But note the generous spirit in which she approached the restaraurant. It's equally out of context to go from a bad experience with el Bulli to a blanket statement that only a few of Adria's course are good, and some inedible. Many have had a very different experience, including the quoted poster on her earlier visits to el Bulli, which she described as "the world's greatest". Nor does it follow that 25 courses invariably lead to a confusion of tastes -- classical French court menus often had more courses than this, and I can assure you that, in my experience of el Bulli, there was no confusion of flavours at all. The small courses made the meal a pleasure. I agree with Russ: judgements based on second party reports are of little value. At least let's not take the secondary sources out of context. Robyn, the QUOTE button will let other posters know whose post you are quoting and when it went onto the thread. Sometimes the quotes get too long. I assumed - erroneously in retrospect - that the people who were talking in the thread had been following it since its inception. Robyn

<<I do not expect the "last meal on earth" experience every time we go out.>> Neither do I. But a 3 star Michelin restaurant is supposed to be "worth a journey". Not a 5 block walk. Not a trip across town. Not dropping in when when you happen to be in town. But a journey. It's supposed to be "worth a journey". Which is what you did to get there. And what we've both done to go to other 3 star Michelin places. Not for 1 or 2 or 3 courses out of 25 - but for a complete meal. And perhaps rooms where you could stay after that meal. The rooms wouldn't be Four Seasons - they'd just be there so you wouldn't worry about having to get anywhere after a terrific meal. So - your meal - and I don't doubt a word of your description of it - was a bust in terms of the Michelin expectation versus reality scale. Heck - if I did 25 courses - I might make 1 or 2 or 3 you found scrumptious too. I have read this entire thread (at least as much as I could get through) - and it sounded exactly like art critics describing the latest "non-art" show (i.e., more time, effort and expertise was spent on the critique than the actual creation of the artwork). Seems to me from what I've read of you that you've been around in terms of eating. So have I. I am used to the older French tradition - where chefs spent half a lifetime perfecting 4, 5, 6 incredible/sublime dishes that were worth a journey. And everything else was never less than very very good. So what do you think is going on today where you can go to a restaurant - and the chef feels compelled to offer 25 courses (which seems to me preposterous on its face - who can keep that many tastes distinct in one's mind - much less one's mouth) - and where only a few are good - and some are inedible. And where people seem to spend more time talking about the food than eating it and enjoying it? Sounds like it's time for Tom Wolfe to write a new book (he's done art - architecture - etc. - and it's about time he did cooking). Robyn

What price range are you looking at? Robyn

I was trying to visualize exactly what area you're talking about. Is it Granville Island? Don't want to say anything else until I know what part of town you're talking about. Robyn

Well - no pork kind of rules out cuchinillo <smile> - and a fair amount of Cuban eating for that matter. On the other hand - do get to Little Havana for at least one lunch. Try Versailles. It is the quintessential Little Havana restaurant. A lot of fun. And you can get dishes without pork. Let me give you 3 more (bigger deal) ideas. Bizcaya Grill in the Ritz Carlton in Coconut Grove. Azul in the Mandarin Oriental on Brickell Key near downtown. And La Broche also in the Brickell area near downtown. We haven't lived in Miami for about 8 years. Were there earlier this year and tried both the Bizcaya Grill and Azul for the first time. Both have big deal chefs. Of the two - we liked the Bizcaya Grill better (the rabbit canneloni at Bizcaya was to die for) - but Azul is definitely the hotter ticket. Haven't tried La Broche yet - it is a branch of the same restaurant in Madrid - and the chef is from the "El Bulli" line of chefs/cooking. Deconstructivist - a little weird. Don't know if you're into that kind of thing. Will probably check it out on our next trip. Look at Norman's in Coral Gables - and Chef Allen's in north Miami. Both of these are older and more established - but the chefs were there at the start in terms of creating Florida fusion cuisine. I suspect both are still solid - if not exactly on the "cutting edge" these days. These restaurants are both a bit further away from where you'll be staying (don't know how far you want to drive or take a cab). I cannot recommend any of Mark Militello's current places (and I think I've been to most of them). I think he has spread himself too thin (which is a shame - since he was really the first great chef in Miami). Also read in the New York Times today that Doug Rodriguez is opening a new restaurant in Miami (where he came from originally - don't know where or when and don't have time to look it up right now - take a look - his food was always interesting - new American Cuban). Read about these (there's a lot of on line stuff) and get back to me with questions. I'll try my best to answer. Please note that I lived in Miami for over 20 years - and there aren't many restaurants on South Beach I can stomach. High prices - mediocre food - served with a lot of attitude. Have been to a few the last couple of trips - and I haven't changed my opinion. Perhaps I didn't find the right ones <shrug>. If you must do Joe's Stone crabs - and they're really good stone crabs - either do lunch (which is nice) - or takeout (eat at a picnic table on the beach). If you insist on trying to eat there at night when you're going - very busy time - figure a $20-50 "tip" to the seater to be seated in less than 1-2 hours. By the way - what restaurants are you thinking of? Robyn

The issue of endagered species is not related to animal cruelty and I'm not sure gorging or force feeding is either. It's a mistake to lump this all in under the politically correct banner. Each is a separate issue to be judged on it's own terms. Smoking is yet another red herring in this debate. OK - forget the endangered species of fish (unfortunate choice of fish). Try farm raised salmon. Or just forget about the fish and concentrate on veal. I probably have a bit more familiarity with food production than your average city dweller. Just because I live in a state with a large amount of agriculture - I'm interested in the subject - and I've explored it on my own (even took a week long course at Cornell in the ag school which took us to a number of food production facilities). Now I consume protein in the form of animal flesh perhaps more than most (a lot of diary doesn't agree with me). And I enjoy things like foie gras more than most people probably do. But you can't tell me that the production of foie gras isn't totally disgusting (to me - I don't know how the animals feel - and I tend to doubt that animals have "feelings" in our sense of the word). In fact - I had to give up reading the recent New York Times article on the subject because it made me queasy. Of course - foie gras isn't unique. The smells and byproducts from things like poultry, milk and pork production are hard to deal with - and - in some cases - highly toxic (witness all the fights about commercial pork production). But the bottom line is we can devote less than 5% of our population to the production of food - and still produce more than enough food for everyone at very cheap prices - because our methods are very efficient. I can get all dewy eyed about "free range this" and "fresh out of the brook" that - but it's not the way you're going to feed most of the people most of the time. And I accept that. But an increasing number of people don't - and think it's politically incorrect. They're the same people who think that animals have "feelings" - and "rights" which are similar to those enjoyed by people (don't believe me - look at "animal rights" courses in law schools). Now we do have animal cruelty laws - and I support those to the extent that they outlaw the *gratuitous* infliction of harm on an animal - i.e., harm without any rhyme or reason whatsoever - like putting a couple of bullets in the legs of a coon because you want to see it limp around. But that's about as far as I'll go. Robyn