robyn

$200 for a couple's dinner???? WOW! HOW??? What do they eat? 20 course meal?? So how much would it be to try out Fins??? Sorry, still shocked..... Amy Hi Amy - Varmint was right. I wasn't talking about Raleigh/Durham in particular - but the dining world as a whole. Haven't been there lately - but I suspect you could spend close to $200 at La Residence for a complete meal with a couple of bottles of wine. And my larger point was that a lot of people who spend a lot of money on houses have never sampled the world of high end dining - even when they're in a great - but expensive - restaurant city like New York. Take care, Robyn

A suggestion (serious one). If you are going to travel a lot - especially in western Europe - take some language courses. It's not that hard to learn Spanish (it's totally phonetic) - and it's a useful language in the US. Once you know Spanish - it's easy to add some Italian. A little Spanish and Italian both go a long way. People are flattered that you've taken the effort to learn their language. French is a lot harder in my opinion - and I have to say that a little doesn't go a long way. My husband and I both speak Spanish - he better than I (we spent many years in Miami). But whenever we want to pick up a bit of a new language - enough for restaurants - hotels and sightseeing - a semester or two at a local state university will do the trick (with Italian - which isn't offered at our local schools - my husband wound up taking private lessons). Regards, Robyn

We have a Dansk factory outlet store where we live. They carry both firsts and seconds. Just about everything is in stock all the time. Robyn

well, during the long nights near the arctic circle this could be a little confusing. especially if your watch stops. I have a nice quartz watch - never stops <smile>. It would be nice to get back to the beginning of this thread - which started basically - I had one terrific meal - and one pretty terrible meal at this restaurant. I know I'm not going to be in Spain next year (UK yes - Spain no) - so I won't have the opportunity to eat at El Bulli. But if I happen to get to Spain in 2005 - and assuming everything stays the same as it is today - which it should with a 3 star restaurant - they shouldn't change that quickly - do you recommend it - or not - and why? And do you recommend or not recommend a place like La Broche in Miami (branch of same restaurant in Madrid - related by technique and chef to El Bulli)? Why or why not? I will be in Miami next month - so this is definitely doable. Is it a great meal - or simply weird and overrated. (Note today's article in the Wall Street Journal - 10 most overrrated restaurants in the US). Life is full of philosophical questions. When I eat - I don't want a lot of existential philosophy - I just want some good - very good - or great - food (for good I can cook at home - for very good or great - I have to go elsewhere). Robyn

I may be mistaken, but the beauty of a place such as eGullet is that intellectual discussions may be held between those whose eyes and whose cultural values are totally different.

" 'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more or less.' " (Alice's Adventures in Wonderland) Words have meanings. If you look up tapas in my Spanish menu reader - it's defined as "in between meal snacks". In my very large Spanish/English dictionary - it's defined as " an assortment of tidbits and appetizers served with wine or cocktails". If a couple in Madrid asked me and my husband to join them for tapas at 7 - I wouldn't think it necessary to cancel my dinner reservations. So you can define it however you want. To most of the world - the word has a definite meaning. I will just have to remember to ask you for your definition should you ever ask me to join you for tapas (depending on your definition - my husband might not approve <smile>). Ditto for painting. You can call a pile of cow dung a painting if you care to - but it isn't. None of this means that a chef can't be creative - or that someone can't sit at a bar and make a meal out of tapas. Just like one can make a meal out of "appetizers" at a bar. My husband and I frequently do - we'll also sit at a bar and split a meal for one into a meal for two. It can be great fun - and we can have some very good - sometimes excellent food. But it isn't fine formal dining. I frankly don't have a distinct recollection of the hot or cold versus hot/cold places. I just know that my particular favorite was always angullas. Think it was the garlic lover in me that found that particular dish appealing. And I don't recall dishes being reheated. By the way - for those of you who might be in Spain - I mentioned that I disliked it. My reason was simply that I encountered a lot of anti-American sentiment when I traveled there. Too many "OTAN NO" wall paintings in various towns. And I unfortunately speak enough Spanish to be drawn into political arguments when I'm sitting at those tapas bars. Individual people were nice on a one-on-one basis (people in the Basque country would even speak to us in Spanish <smile>). But it got depressing after a while dealing with pervasive anti-American sentiment. No offense intended to your country - that's just how I felt. Robyn

Please note that the Wall Street Journal had some pretty bad things to say about Norman's today. So I take it off my list of suggestions (I haven't been there in quite a while - and I will defer to a recent review). Robyn

I have no idea how old most of the people here are. I'm close to 60. In my experience - tapas was the stuff you ate in Spain between 7 and 9 because you were starved and most restaurants didn't serve dinner until at least 10. I never handled jet lag very well - so when in Spain - my head would usually be in my plate by 10. Found it very practical to eat a nice leisurely lunch - and have tapas for dinner - then go to sleep. I'm not saying the tapas wasn't good. Some of it was very good - but it just wasn't a meal - and it was never meant to be a meal. By the way - I agree with you about the service and reception one should get arriving at a restaurant as a stranger. It may be more or less formal depending on the nature of the establishment - and more or less friendly depending on the nature of the country/city you're in. But it should always be professional. Of course - if one is not a stranger - one should expect more - but - sadly - sometimes you don't get it. I will never ever go to Le Bernardin in New York. It used to have an outpost in Miami where my husband and I dined frequently. Same corner table for two every time. We were good customers. My husband spent some time in a hospital - and the first week I arrived at the restaurant alone - I really needed to get out a bit - I was shown to a horrible table in the bar next to the kitchen door. Had some words with the staff - but Maguy Le Coze wasn't about to give a good table to a woman dining alone - no matter how good a customer she was. Didn't make it through that meal - and never returned - even after my husband recovered. I've received similar treatment at restaurants when traveling on business alone. Perhaps "women dining alone" would be a good general acid test of how restaurants treat their customers. Robyn

Agreed - but sometimes it is very difficult to do when traveling. I don't know about you - but there's only so much food I can eat. On the other hand - last time we hit an excellent restaurant while traveling - we canceled dinner reservations at another place for the second night - and dined there again. I just let it be known that I would prefer lighter dishes the second night - and the staff obliged with recommendations. They even left me with enough room for dessert <smile>. Robyn

Sounds like there's more than a fair amount of cultural relativism in your post. I don't buy it in food - I don't buy it in art - I don't buy it in politics - and I don't buy it in life in general. If everything you hold dear in based on cultural relativisim - then we really don't have anything to discuss - because you're looking at the world through eyes that are totally different than mine. On the other hand - if your cultural relativism is less than absolute - then I have this to say about restaurants (won't bore you with my views about art - politics - or life in general). A great *chef* can make great food. A *great* restaurant turns out *great* food *consistently*. It's not a question if I go on April 12 2001 - the food is great - but if I go on January 27 2002 it's inedible. That is why the Michelin star system makes a lot of sense. A restaurant which sometimes has great food but sometimes has inedible food doesn't in my opinion even warrant one star. I'd rather go to the one "knife and fork" place in town. The food won't be great - but it will almost always be good regional food. There is a big difference between art and food. If I go to an exhibition I don't like -I can just take a quick "look-see" and walk out. Most exhibitions are in museums which have other things to see. And if the museum is terrible - I go can shopping <smile>. If I go to a restaurant - I'm stuck - unless I am so aggrieved that I simply walk out midway through a meal (haven't done that often - but I have on occasion). Walking out on a meal - or a reservation for a second meal - or simply coming away unhappy from a meal - isn't awful if you're in your home town and the restaurant isn't that pricey. It isn't awful if you're on a trip and your expectations of the place were low to start with - and you didn't spend a lot of money. It is awful if you've taken a couple of days out of your life - and spent 500 bucks or more (used to be able to do 3 stars for 200-300 or less - but 500 is more like it these days) - on a meal that isn't wonderful. And that *wonderful* has to be consistent. The impressionists are a bad analogy. When they were new - they could be had for a song - and most didn't sell at all. We're not talking about restaurants which are charging peanuts for their meals. We're talking about restaurants with world class pretentions which are charging world class prices. If a restaurant is worthy of world class prices - it will deliver consistently delicious meals to everyone who dines there. And no I don't care if the chef has a headache on the day my journey takes me to his establishment. That said - I haven't eaten at El Bulli. Probably never will. I don't much like Spain for a number of reasons and will probably never go there again. The closest I will probably get to this school of cooking is La Broche in Miami. I was simply responding to the original poster's (Lizlilee's <sp>?) experiences there (one good and one bad). As for 25 courses - I don't know how big you guys are - but I am a small woman - and the most I can do (while leaving some room for dessert - I love desserts and I always assume until proven otherwise that there's a great pastry chef in the kitchen) is perhaps 5-7 courses with tasting menu size portions. So instead of doing 25 courses - perhaps the chef should just just pick his 5-7-10 best and run with those. I find it interesting that a lot of people eating these 25 course extravaganzas have to refer to notes and sometimes photos to remember what was good - and what wasn't. Sometimes they have to refer back to remember exactly what they've eaten. On my part - I remember every memorable dish/meal I've ever eaten for the last 30 years. Except one. Because I dined at Alain Ducasse on 9/10/2001 - which happened to be my 30th anniversary. Only time I've had a total blackout. I'll have to go back sometime to recapture my memories. Robyn P.S. With regard to restaurants with rooms - agreed there's no Michelin requirement - but they're nice. You don't have to worry about driving after dark in a strange place after too much food and too much wine. Not to mention trying to navigate in a foreign language - or going down 1 1/2 lane roads with high walls on both sides. Sometimes the rooms are an afterthought - a place to crash - sometimes they're a little weird - done up in color schemes that were fashionable 25 years ago - and sometimes they're snazzy and expensive. No matter what they're like - I appreciate stumbling up the stairs instead of trying to navigate a multi-mile drive back to where I'm staying after a great meal.

Robyn's quote was a bit out of context. Here's the paragraph from which it was taken: The poster was describing her attitude toward a repeat visit to el Bulli, one at which, unlike her earlier visit which she found delightful, was a disappointment. But note the generous spirit in which she approached the restaraurant. It's equally out of context to go from a bad experience with el Bulli to a blanket statement that only a few of Adria's course are good, and some inedible. Many have had a very different experience, including the quoted poster on her earlier visits to el Bulli, which she described as "the world's greatest". Nor does it follow that 25 courses invariably lead to a confusion of tastes -- classical French court menus often had more courses than this, and I can assure you that, in my experience of el Bulli, there was no confusion of flavours at all. The small courses made the meal a pleasure. I agree with Russ: judgements based on second party reports are of little value. At least let's not take the secondary sources out of context. Robyn, the QUOTE button will let other posters know whose post you are quoting and when it went onto the thread. Sometimes the quotes get too long. I assumed - erroneously in retrospect - that the people who were talking in the thread had been following it since its inception. Robyn

<<I do not expect the "last meal on earth" experience every time we go out.>> Neither do I. But a 3 star Michelin restaurant is supposed to be "worth a journey". Not a 5 block walk. Not a trip across town. Not dropping in when when you happen to be in town. But a journey. It's supposed to be "worth a journey". Which is what you did to get there. And what we've both done to go to other 3 star Michelin places. Not for 1 or 2 or 3 courses out of 25 - but for a complete meal. And perhaps rooms where you could stay after that meal. The rooms wouldn't be Four Seasons - they'd just be there so you wouldn't worry about having to get anywhere after a terrific meal. So - your meal - and I don't doubt a word of your description of it - was a bust in terms of the Michelin expectation versus reality scale. Heck - if I did 25 courses - I might make 1 or 2 or 3 you found scrumptious too. I have read this entire thread (at least as much as I could get through) - and it sounded exactly like art critics describing the latest "non-art" show (i.e., more time, effort and expertise was spent on the critique than the actual creation of the artwork). Seems to me from what I've read of you that you've been around in terms of eating. So have I. I am used to the older French tradition - where chefs spent half a lifetime perfecting 4, 5, 6 incredible/sublime dishes that were worth a journey. And everything else was never less than very very good. So what do you think is going on today where you can go to a restaurant - and the chef feels compelled to offer 25 courses (which seems to me preposterous on its face - who can keep that many tastes distinct in one's mind - much less one's mouth) - and where only a few are good - and some are inedible. And where people seem to spend more time talking about the food than eating it and enjoying it? Sounds like it's time for Tom Wolfe to write a new book (he's done art - architecture - etc. - and it's about time he did cooking). Robyn

What price range are you looking at? Robyn

I was trying to visualize exactly what area you're talking about. Is it Granville Island? Don't want to say anything else until I know what part of town you're talking about. Robyn

Well - no pork kind of rules out cuchinillo <smile> - and a fair amount of Cuban eating for that matter. On the other hand - do get to Little Havana for at least one lunch. Try Versailles. It is the quintessential Little Havana restaurant. A lot of fun. And you can get dishes without pork. Let me give you 3 more (bigger deal) ideas. Bizcaya Grill in the Ritz Carlton in Coconut Grove. Azul in the Mandarin Oriental on Brickell Key near downtown. And La Broche also in the Brickell area near downtown. We haven't lived in Miami for about 8 years. Were there earlier this year and tried both the Bizcaya Grill and Azul for the first time. Both have big deal chefs. Of the two - we liked the Bizcaya Grill better (the rabbit canneloni at Bizcaya was to die for) - but Azul is definitely the hotter ticket. Haven't tried La Broche yet - it is a branch of the same restaurant in Madrid - and the chef is from the "El Bulli" line of chefs/cooking. Deconstructivist - a little weird. Don't know if you're into that kind of thing. Will probably check it out on our next trip. Look at Norman's in Coral Gables - and Chef Allen's in north Miami. Both of these are older and more established - but the chefs were there at the start in terms of creating Florida fusion cuisine. I suspect both are still solid - if not exactly on the "cutting edge" these days. These restaurants are both a bit further away from where you'll be staying (don't know how far you want to drive or take a cab). I cannot recommend any of Mark Militello's current places (and I think I've been to most of them). I think he has spread himself too thin (which is a shame - since he was really the first great chef in Miami). Also read in the New York Times today that Doug Rodriguez is opening a new restaurant in Miami (where he came from originally - don't know where or when and don't have time to look it up right now - take a look - his food was always interesting - new American Cuban). Read about these (there's a lot of on line stuff) and get back to me with questions. I'll try my best to answer. Please note that I lived in Miami for over 20 years - and there aren't many restaurants on South Beach I can stomach. High prices - mediocre food - served with a lot of attitude. Have been to a few the last couple of trips - and I haven't changed my opinion. Perhaps I didn't find the right ones <shrug>. If you must do Joe's Stone crabs - and they're really good stone crabs - either do lunch (which is nice) - or takeout (eat at a picnic table on the beach). If you insist on trying to eat there at night when you're going - very busy time - figure a $20-50 "tip" to the seater to be seated in less than 1-2 hours. By the way - what restaurants are you thinking of? Robyn

The issue of endagered species is not related to animal cruelty and I'm not sure gorging or force feeding is either. It's a mistake to lump this all in under the politically correct banner. Each is a separate issue to be judged on it's own terms. Smoking is yet another red herring in this debate. OK - forget the endangered species of fish (unfortunate choice of fish). Try farm raised salmon. Or just forget about the fish and concentrate on veal. I probably have a bit more familiarity with food production than your average city dweller. Just because I live in a state with a large amount of agriculture - I'm interested in the subject - and I've explored it on my own (even took a week long course at Cornell in the ag school which took us to a number of food production facilities). Now I consume protein in the form of animal flesh perhaps more than most (a lot of diary doesn't agree with me). And I enjoy things like foie gras more than most people probably do. But you can't tell me that the production of foie gras isn't totally disgusting (to me - I don't know how the animals feel - and I tend to doubt that animals have "feelings" in our sense of the word). In fact - I had to give up reading the recent New York Times article on the subject because it made me queasy. Of course - foie gras isn't unique. The smells and byproducts from things like poultry, milk and pork production are hard to deal with - and - in some cases - highly toxic (witness all the fights about commercial pork production). But the bottom line is we can devote less than 5% of our population to the production of food - and still produce more than enough food for everyone at very cheap prices - because our methods are very efficient. I can get all dewy eyed about "free range this" and "fresh out of the brook" that - but it's not the way you're going to feed most of the people most of the time. And I accept that. But an increasing number of people don't - and think it's politically incorrect. They're the same people who think that animals have "feelings" - and "rights" which are similar to those enjoyed by people (don't believe me - look at "animal rights" courses in law schools). Now we do have animal cruelty laws - and I support those to the extent that they outlaw the *gratuitous* infliction of harm on an animal - i.e., harm without any rhyme or reason whatsoever - like putting a couple of bullets in the legs of a coon because you want to see it limp around. But that's about as far as I'll go. Robyn

Since you'll be in Miami for a week - you can try lots of things. But perhaps the only unusual Christmas thing you'll find there is the traditional Cuban roast pig on "la noche buena" (Christmas Eve). You can find it at various restaurants in and around Little Havana (don't think you'll want to journey to Hialeah - too much traffic). It will most likely not be a big deal meal in terms of atmosphere or prices. But it is a traditional tasty meal. Don't know exactly what your timetable is - but - if you like parades - marching bands and the like - the Orange Bowl Parade is a big deal parade. What part of town are you staying in (the greater Miami metro area is a big place - and traffic is pretty bad a lot of the time)? Robyn

I suspect that this will be the prevailing attitude as the issue, increasingly, comes up for votes around the country and the world. Foie gras is for a few rich people--so who cares? It IS--on its face--a tough thing to defend. Try to picture any self-interested public figure essentially saying, " Cruelty to animals? Force feeding cute little ducks (or geese)--for an elitist gourmet treat? I'm FOR IT!" Not likely to happen. The production of foie gras is already illegal in Australia and New Zealand (countries which pride themselves on their food scene). I don't know what the UK situation is--but suspect that the current is headed in a direction similar to Sonoma. No big deal? That a vital culinary tradition--central to French cuisine--dating back to Roman times is imperilled? As goes California--often goes the rest. (As I have found everytime I each for my smokes at a saloon in NYC. ) On a more close to home note, you might cast your eyes up to the D'Artagnan ad at top of page--a business BUILT on foie gras production and related products. If, for instance, D'Artagnan can't sell foie gras and foie gras products, the potential ripple effects on the viability of the rest of their line could be extremely destructive to both the company--and to the many, many restaurants who depend on them. At the very least, chefs from Gascony will be less inclined, I would think, to relocate to a place where they have to cook with one arm tied behind their backs. Our pates and terrines at Les Halles will become a lot less interesting. Products that emanate from foie gras production--ie" magret, legs for confit, duck bones, duck blood, duck giblets, duck rilette could be harder--and more exepensive to find. (As these--in the Hudson Valley anyway) are by-products of animals bred specifically for foie gras. It IS a big deal. Coming from Florida - a state which has a constitutional amendment protecting pigs - and a constitutional amendment banning those smokes in bars - and who knows what else after the next round of 50 proposed constitutional amendments on next year's ballot - I agree 100% with your thoughts - and share your pain. I was only in Gascony once - but the people there cram some of the finest eating in the world into a very small geographical area. And the highlight is of course foie gras - from geese - not ducks. I was very fortunate to have my first experience with foie gras at the Hotel de France when Andre Daguin was the chef. He was a friend of a friend - and he spent the evening introducing me and my husband to the culinary delights of Gascony. For those of you who don't know - his daughter - Ariane Daguin - is one of the principals in D'Artagnan. I have dealt with D'Artagnan for quite a few years as an individual non-commercial consumer. The outfit doesn't only make good products. It seems to be very honest. When listeria was found in one of its factories a few years ago (the listeria caused a few deaths) - it recalled everything that came out of that factory - and told everyone about the recall. People like me who had only bought a few items for the holidays were notified - and we got refunds. The listeria incident almost drove the company into bankruptcy - but I think the company's honesty in dealing with its customers brought a lot of them (including me) back into the fold. Anyway - I digress. I find an unfortunate degree of political correctness in high end restaurants these days. You can't eat these kinds of fish (whether it's redfish or swordfish) - or those kinds of meats (e.g., veal). Or chickens that haven't been allowed the same grazing area as a cow. And those who've never had the money to eat in high end restaurants (as evidenced by the message you got) - couldn't care less. So what will we be left with if current trends continue? On the high end -we'll be asked to spend a couple of hundred dollars eating artfully prepared raw or almost raw vegetables (which is apparently what some people in California are eating now). And - on the low end - people will just keep stuffing themselves with burgers and fries and pizzas - and more and more people will wind up being double-wides and triple-wides (that's what my husband and I call them - the increasing hordes of the obese in the US). Thanks but no thanks. I think I will sit home and eat my illegal cheese and foie gras from France - and enjoy my cigarette at the end of my meal. Robyn

Why no sushi? If you don't like it - or don't want raw seafood for some reason - ok. You won't get an argument. But if you think it's not "fine dining" - or have some similar thoughts - give it another look. We were in Los Angeles for a week last year - and explored a fair amount (given that we only had a week). Hands down - our best "fine dining" experiences were at high end sushi restaurants. By the way - we had fun at Chinois on Main at lunch on another trip. Guess what made it fun was that I ran into the restaurant in shorts while my husband and a male friend were waiting in the car - and asked if wearing shorts was ok. The fellow at the front desk said "sure". So the guys then came in wearing shorts. And the shorts that were ok for me weren't ok for them. They were told they had to wear long pants. But they didn't have any in the car. So the kitchen staff offered to lend them kitchen pants - kind of a variant on the "borrowed jacket". Normally my husband wouldn't have agreed - but he knew how much I wanted to try the restaurant. So he and his friend dined wearing kitchen pants. It was a hoot :). And the staff was kind of red in the face. To compensate - they brought us out some extra dishes which were better than anything we had from the menu. We did try Spago on our last trip - and think you can safely skip it. Robyn

<<Costco is death for wine.>> I disagree. Whenever I want to buy a small trendy boutique wine - I can't (e.g., my husband and I were in BC last year - and when we tried to buy some of the wines we had there - everyone laughed - those wines don't get out of BC - except perhaps a botttle at a time from a few wine stores). What we find at our Costco here is far from garbage - there are a lot of medium (and higher) priced wines that are very good. On the other hand - our local liquor stores will usually match Costco prices. So we'll buy at the local liquor stores - or Costco - depending on where we happen to be driving on any given day. The biggest hassle in terms of getting a better selection of wines here is the stranglehold that the state distributors have on the market (if I want to buy wine on line - I can - but I will pay $21 extra for 3 bottles to the wine distribution monopoly for the privilege of buying). Robyn

At almost all restaurants - there's a lot of time devoted to "mise en place" which - translated - means "to put in place" (ahead of time). At its extreme - for example at 3 star restaurants in France - you will see the kitchen prep people hulling strawberries at 9 am. But you can also observe it at your local Chinese restaurant at 4 pm - the kitchen staff sitting down at a table and removing the strings from snow pea pods. If you want an excellent cookbook which describes some of the techniques used in professional kitchens - I recommend The New Professional Chef published by the Culinary Institute of America. Robyn

<<This is why I can't stand Joe's; yes, the crabs are fresh, well cracked and the sauce is good but should they get a medal for this? Does this justify there charging 50% more than others?>> If you're saying you think Joe's is overpriced - you won't get any argument from me <smile>. We used to buy crabs at other places too - but - since we haven't lived in Miami for 8 years now - my recommendations are probably stale. My parents - who live in northern Broward country - buy crabs at King's (a food market) - and they've been good (in terms of size and freshness) whenever my parents have served them for dinner. My father made a "crab cracking contraption" for the garage. It works fine. And I make the mustard sauce recipe from Joe's. So we have the bases covered. Seafood contraptions are highly underrated. I used to hate rock shrimp until we found a place that had perfected a (patented) rock shrimp device (Dixie Crossings in Titusville FL - about 2 miles off I-95 for those of you on the interstate). Robyn

<<If you'd like to see the Alaskan fisherman getting a fair share, then purchase and support Alaskan fisheries by refusing to purchase farm raised garbage.>> I don't know how old you are. I am almost 60 - and I have lived in Florida for over 30 years. Before farmed raised salmon - you only saw salmon here at very fancy expensive restaurants - and very very occasionally at food markets at almost $20/pound. So what you are saying in essence to most of us in the US is we should never eat salmon at all. How about if we told you in salmon country never to eat anything other than free range organic poultry? Or organic oranges? Even if that meant your chicken would cost $15 and your orange juice would cost $3/glass? I don't think you're being realistic. Robyn

<<my salad spinner ranks a close second.>> We use ours all the time. Guess one man's trash is another man's treasure. Robyn

<<This vintage didn't taste like banana-ade like the last several vintages. It actually had some substance. This is the "California" vintage of Beaujolais. As far as $6.49 a bottle is concerned, this is disturbing. Costco has to buy from the distributor. The distributor marks up the wine from the supplier, who has also marked up the wine. The bottle costs 75¢, the cork costs 10¢, the label costs 25¢, the capsule 5¢. Working backwards, the distributor paid $4, the supplier paid $2,deduct the $1.15 for the packaging, the wine itself is WORTH PENNIES. A palliative, not a ponderable.>> I don't know how Costco buys. I know it has enough purchasing power to buy directly from the manufacturer - but our liquor distributor lobby in Florida has a lot of clout (and we have the stupid laws to show for it). Robyn