robyn

Saturday in NYC in a suit and tie - yuck. How about a Tower of Seafood and a couple of glasses of wine at Balthazar? Then shopping/galleries? Robyn

You eat beef - but not chicken? Why? Robyn

You want $2 lemons and $10 chickens? People can rant and rave all they want about pesticide-free this - or free-range that - but exactly how much are you prepared to spend for food? On the other hand - it might be the cure for our national obesity problem . Robyn (I never saw a fat person in Norway - no one there can afford to be fat)

do you know how those products were processed? my beef (pardon the pun) is not with any specific product. My concern is how the product got from whatever animal it came from and onto my plate. if that process involves forced animal containment and overcrowding , antibiotics, hormones, unnatural diets, assembly line meat packing plants where cross-contamination can occur, cross-country logisitics (increasing the disease vector) and the use of underskilled, underpaid, oftentimes illegal workers, then it's not something i can/will financially support. apply this thinking to whatever you want to apply it too, and suffice to say, in this day and age, it definitely limits my choices - whether it be fast food, grocery store food, or even restaurant food. The products were processed in a plant in New York City (Brooklyn if I recall correctly). I also took a look- and read the the US Department of Agriculture has put new rules into effect to inspect processing plants for listeria (previously - only animal inspections were required). There are a ton of web sites on listeria - and you can read them at your leisure. The organism that causes listeria occurs on a fairly regular basis in animals (whether they're organic or not). It's not a sign that anyone has done anything wrong. An infected animal can contaminate a processing plant - and my understanding is that once the proessing plant is contaminated - there's basically nothing you can do except shut the place down. Listeria can be killed by cooking at high heat levels - so you're most likely to wind up getting sick with it by eating processed meats - like sausages - hot dogs - cold cuts - pates - etc. - which aren't cooked a lot - or at all. Absolutely nothing you mention would decrease your chances of getting sick from listeria (or most other food illnesses for that matter). Just like nothing you mention would decrease your chances of getting a food illness from a rare burger. Cooking things thoroughly will (although obviously most of us wouldn't care to eat a thoroughly cooked pate). Are you familiar with why you have a much greater chance of getting a food illness from a rare burger than a rare steak (I'm a person who loves rare meat - so I keep up on these things <smile>)? You confuse a lot of things in your message. Forced animal containment has nothing to do with food safety. Neither does the use of underpaid workers. There are perhaps arguments to be made against these things - but they are political - not a question of public health. So you have to decide whether you want to talk politics - or public health. If you want to discuss both - at least do them separately. By the way - I have to mention - as I have in other places on this board - that I thought D'Artagnan was as terrific as it could be about this incident. It cooperated in a recall - notified people like me - as well as its many commercial customers - all the best restaurants - everyone it could find who had bought its products - and gave us a full refund - even though it lost almost 100% of its Christmas/New Year's sales one year. That is why it is still in business - and people still buy from the company. Robyn

Robyn, I am with you on the peppers. I don't see how a grocery can charge what they do for peppers (and here in South La, at least for part of the year, many of them are locally grown) at the grocery store when other outlets can sell them for so much less. I do not think that a store of any size would use them for a loss leader, as frankly, red, yellow, purple, etc., bell peppers are not something any stores sell a ton of anyway, if you use shelf space as a judging criteria. And I love em too Well - when something is expensive - people treat it as a luxury item. You buy one at a time and use it sparingly. At $6 for 6 large ones - I throw them in and on lots of things. Scrambled eggs with onions and peppers - sausage and peppers - salads with fresh peppers - heck - we even buy frozen pizzas at Costco (Freschette - 3 for about $11 at Costco) - and "customize" them with fresh peppers - mushrooms - onions - etc. When something you used to use like a luxury item becomes cheap - you start digging out a lot of recipes. I did with peppers what I did a while back with salmon (remember when it was $15/pound on sale!). And then the opposite happens too. I used to buy my pine nuts relatively cheaply at a local "health food store". Then it went out of business - and I couldn't face spending $30 on a bunch of pine nuts to make a batch of pesto (I grow my own basil - so I can get all I need for the summer for $3 at the start of the season). Then when Costco opened - I could buy pine nuts for even less than what I was paying at the local health food store. And the pesto re-emerged as a summer staple. By the way - the pine nuts at Costco are from China. Is this a moral problem (it's not a taste problem)? It's the same issue faced by US garlic growers (competition from China) - and obviously lots of other industries in the US. I ask the question rhetorically - because competition from China in terms of goods and India in terms of services is one of the largest issues the US economy will face in the next decade - and a decent discussion of the implications is well beyond what I have the time or space to write tonight. By the way - judging from your description of your mother in another message (I still haven't figured out how to unnest nested quotes so I can quote things without cluttering up the message board - so I will combine 2 messages in one) - I think you would enjoy Ruth Reichl's biographical books (especially the descriptions of her mother's cooking). Make a "hint" for a stocking stuffer if you haven't read them. My mother is straight out of the movie "Mother" with Albert Brooks and Debbie Reynolds. Everything is frozen. My parents grill a chicken - freeze it - and reheat it. No wonder it's dry as the Sahara. If you haven't seen the movie - it's fun too. Might be a good idea for a thread - "food themes" in the movies (but I don't have time to start it now). Take care, Robyn

Would take me a looooooooooong time to tally up everything for a month. Let's do a couple of items. Like I bought some chicken breasts (with ribs) for $1.19/pound - and ground round for $3.29/pound at Publix this week (I don't set foot in Walmart). So much does the free-range/organic stuff cost? Robyn

The most recent mass case of listeria which killed a bunch of people (if I am remembering correctly) came from D'Artagnan/Hudson valley products (foie gras pates and the like). It wasn't exactly low end stuff. Robyn

There's a great Neil Young song called "Piece of Crap" that I love. From the movie "Repo Man": As two guys are sitting in their car for a long time waiting, watching the hustle bustle of people going about their day, one turns to the other and says "Ordinary fucking people, I hate 'em." A classic! These are the same people that work at the grocery check out and STILL don't recognize half the stuff I buy. Holding up an artichoke, or endive "what's this again?" (I did get raddichio for the price of red cabbage once though!) Pork, I feel your pain. Most people just don't don't give a shit. There are people who live as if they had blinders on, not wanting to learn, explore, feel, smell, taste, laugh or cry because it's DIFFERENT. Sadly because of these apathetic assholes, our natural resources will soon be destroyed. It's that pig attitude of "I want a green lawn and I don't care if my dog or kid or your kid gets cancer, I'm using my Chemlawn." Or, "I don't care if workers are exploited, I want my Nike's. They don't want make waves. They want to blend in. We don't. I will try very hard not to be ad hominem and personal. All I will say is that the average person who checks out or bags my groceries at Publix is an immigrant - a high school or college student taking advantage of the educational opportunities offered to Publix employees - or a person with a definite handicap (some are deaf and have speech difficulties - some have Down's syndrome - etc.). They are unfailingly courteous and competent - and if some of them have never seen a fennel bulb before (it's only a seasonal item here) - I will gladly tell them what it is so they'll know next time they see one. I don't know what your background is. My husband and I are retired lawyers. But he spent time doing things like working on the Ford Motor Company assembly line -and I spent time doing things like working as a secretary - so we could get through school. Workers - the people who serve you - are always entitled to be treated with dignity (although they don't always get it) - not derision. Robyn

I wonder if you have ever shopped at Costco? In my refrigerator right now is a package of Sausages by Amy - chicken andouille. Are these great sausages - no? Are they very good - yes (as an everyday lower in salt lower in fat alternative to the best sausage - which is unavailable where I live anyway). And they're a heck of a lot cheaper from Costco than through the Williams Sonoma catalogue (which also sells them - they're not available locally). I also have a pack of red/yellow/orange peppers (6 for $6 - about half what local grocery stores charge) - a pack of red/yellow/orange mini peppers ($4 for lots - unavailable anywhere else here) - I do like peppers - a hunk of aged PR cheese (again half the price for what it's available elsewhere) - a lot of pine nuts ($12/pound - it would be hard for me to make fresh pesto that didn't cost more than caviar if I had to pay the $5 for 2 or 3 ounces which is charged elsewhere) - the remnants of a jar of peach mango salsa (great on grilled chicken) - etc. Note that I live in north Florida - and if I wanted to detour on the way home to my nearest Italian grocery - I might not be home until the weekend . By the way - where do you live? Perhaps you live in an area laden with good Italian grocery stores. You don't find many of them in most parts of the south. I used to shop at one occasionally when I lived in Miami - but it was almost an hour away from my house - assuming no traffic - it wasn't the kind of place I could stop by on my way home from work. Wasn't a question of money. Who wants to spend 2 hours on the road for a hunk of cheese? For what it's worth - I do the opposite of what you imply. When I'm in Costco shopping for stuff I like there - I will pick up twice as much bread as I need (good dense crunchy stuff which my local grocery stores don't sell either) - because I'm too lazy to stop at another place on the way home. Robyn

<<For those people buying groceries at Costco by choice, is the mozzarella adequate, maybe. Is it better than the home-made, definitely not. At the end of the day, the people buying mozzarella from Costco are not eating as well (and I mean tasting good) as they could if they bought the mozzarella from the italian grocery.>> Sammy - there are a lot of us in the US who don't have Italian groceries. We might have perhaps one or two crummy "gourmet" grocery stores where the selection isn't terrific - and where most items have spent too much time on the shelf or in the refrigerator case - and the prices are outrageous. I'd rather support Costco (which has brought more "gourmet type" food to my town than any gourmet store ever did). For what it's worth - I stopped going to one of my local gourmet stores after it failed to take recalled product out of its refrigerator case (I told them about the recall - but I guess they didn't pull the stuff because they couldn't get a refund from their distributor - you're not going to find that at Costco). Robyn

Well first thing you have to do is realize that it's not all in peoples' heads - it's what their mouths get used to eating. My husband's family has spent a lot of years in North Carolina. The main seasoning they use is salt - lots of it - tons of it. I find a lot of the food (like canned ham) inedible. And when they eat food anywhere - they spend a solid 30 seconds with the salt shaker before even tasting what's in front of them. My father-in-law has been in a nursing home here for about 2 years now. He complains about the lack of salt in things like beef - even though the nursing home is kosher - and koshered beef is plenty salty (he can't add more salt because he has congestive heart failure). So - after 2 years - he's been unable to re-educate his taste buds. With younger people like my nieces and nephews - it's even worse - because no one is trying to re-educate them. And cheese - don't get me started on cheese. Now I love cheese - occasionally. It covers the basic fat and salt and smelly food groups . But when I go to restaurants and see cheese on fish - and not a single appetizer on the menu without cheese - well something is wrong. And all this Atkins diet mania has made things worse - people are pouring cheese on *everything* (can't have a slice of bread - but I'll have 6 ounces of cheese on my steak - that's the new TGIF Atkins diet menu item I heard about on CNBC today - steak smothered in cheese). So what are we going to wind up with - people who are addicted to salt and cheese on everything? Doesn't sound like a recipe for fun eating. Robyn

<<The point I was trying to make, was that food quality is a separate issue from the quality of the family dining experience. That observations about Wal-Mart should be separate from observations on the breakdown of the American Dining Tradition.>> Busboy - The point I was trying to make is that I agree with you <smile>. Sorry if I didn't make my point clearly. Robyn

<<I am sorry for those of you that seem to equate food at home with tasteless glop.>> Some people are good cooks - some aren't. Just because someone was a "stay at home" Mom in the 50's didn't make her a good cook (some like yours were - some like ours weren't). My husband and I never cooked hardly at all before we retired. I did try a little when we first got married - but trying to put dinner on the table after working 8-9-10 hours a day while my husband watched TV wasn't my idea of a good time. So - rather than nag him - I stopped - and learned how to make reservations. We do cook at home more now that we have the time. <<Robyn, on one thing here-yard chickens are an amazing taste treat. Real chickens fed real grain and allowed to grow and develop naturally just beat the hell out of industrial chickens. I do miss them and it is not nostalgia, I still get one occasionally when I go visit relatives and they are night and day better than their caged neighbors.>> I don't have relatives who raise chickens . But I kind of know what you mean. I've had Bresse chicken in France - and it doesn't even taste like it's the same animal I eat at home. <<This,in fact, is the crux of this whole discussion. How to get the average person out of the fast food lane and into the checkout lane at the supermarket. The next step is to teach these people that there is more out there than canned peas and carrots, but that is reaching. The real issue is that we have a country that is turning into a country of fat people because they either don't know enough, or care enough, to cook healthy meals at home. Clearly education is probably part of the answer, although I don't know what kind-perhaps if public service ads would work to teach people how much money they could save by not eating garbage (both on food costs and health care) that might help. This argument seems to continually be digressing into Wal Mart and big discount chains when in fact the big corporations that need to change the way that they do business are fast food chains and McAppleback's.>> I'm not sure what the cause of the "fat" problem is - but - like most big deal issues - I'm sure it's not a single simple cause. Obviously - most people don't get as much exercise as they should. When I was growing up - PE was required not only through high school - it was required in college! And they eat things that are very dense in calories compared to the volume of the food (like all foods from the salty snack aisle of the supermarket - or the infamous salad from McDonald's that had about 1000 calories because the dressing portion was supersized). (Note that I don't mind eating things that aren't lo-cal as long as they fill me up). Also - and this may sound peculiar - I think people tend to eat more of things when they're almost tasteless except for the taste of grease and salt. Perhaps they figure if they keep eating - it will get better. I'm sure other people can add numerous other reasons - but I agree it's a big problem. Robyn

You make some very interesting points about the connection between food and public health. I don't know how interested anyone is in pellagra. I am. For those who'd like an interesting web site on the subject try http://history.nih.gov/exhibits/goldberger/main.html. I suspect a lot of the people who don't believe in these food enhancements also don't believe in childhood vaccinations (if they knew people with polio - like I do - I doubt they'd think that "natural" is "better"). Robyn

Let's take it back a generation. My husband and I both grew up in the 40's/50's. And we all gathered around the dinner table every night to eat lots of tasteless overcooked food - main course was almost always beef - accompanied by mushy vegetables (to this day - my mother still refuses to eat fish - the white meat on her chicken is as dry as the Sahara - and she makes eggs you could play ball with). Can't blame Walmart - or corporate America. Nope - blame our grandmothers- who were also lousy cooks - and passed that along to their daughters (thanks Grandmas). As for restaurants - forget it. As with you - it was a function of money - and class (or lack of it). A truly festive dinner out was a "trendy" Italian meatballs and spaghetti place. Reading through this thread - there is a lot of nostalgia for things that never existed. Yes we all ate many meals together. But it was crummy food. My husband and I didn't learn anything about food until we were in our 20's - and decided that there might be more to life than overcooked beef. Was the quality of the ingredients better than it is now? Doubt it. And certainly there is much more availability and diversity now (even the worst grocery store in my neighborhood has maybe 10 kinds of lettuce - whereas 50 years ago - maybe if you were lucky you might find some romaine alongside the iceberg). "Expensive" foods are also more available - and cheaper in inflation adjusted currencies. Someone said a while back in this thread that there was nothing better than the fresh chickens his grandmother used to get. Many of you are probably too young to remember the phrase - "a chicken in every pot". Perhaps that chicken was fresher than what we have now - but it certainly wasn't everyday eating like the whole rotisserie chicken I can pick up at any grocery store for $4-5. I am not a Walmart shopper (except for birdseed - they sell high quality birdseed for about half of what it sells for elsewhere). But I do shop at Costco for a fair number of items. Mostly items I use in bulk - like bottled water. Some of the biggest selling items at places like Walmart and Costco are bulk paper products - paper towels - toilet paper - diapers. Perhaps those of you who are single have never needed 100 disposable diapers - but there are lot of people who do. And while the quality of fresh produce may not be the best (don't know about Walmart -but Costco quality is usually pretty good) - what's the problem with saving 50% on stuff that's in can and jars? If I were feeding a family of 5 on a limited budget - I'd buy the huge jar of Hellman's mayo at Costco (instead of waiting for the 2 for 1 on the smaller jar at Publix ). So - unless your objections to places like Walmart and Costco are purely political (elitist political I might add) - you really have to deal with it - and get on with your life. Seems to me the focus ought to be more on how to use the raw material that's available to us. How to cook decent meals. Our mothers and grandmothers didn't do it for the most part - and they had all the time in the world. Women (and men) have a lot less time these days (and for those guys out there who want to put the little woman back in the kitchen - all I can say is when you divorce us - it's nice to have a skill that's marketable in the labor force - and amateur cooking isn't one of them). So how do you turn this cornucopia of available ingredients into meals given that most people don't even have time for "30 minute meals" (not to mention that if I tried to do all the chopping for one of those 30 minute meals on TV in 30 minutes - I wouldn't have any fingers left). Perhaps that new oven that both cooks fast and browns has some of the answers. What answers do you have? Robyn

I think you are wrong. You're right - took a look at the WSJ - and it was just record sales for a November. Robyn

<<It can be done, and some grocers are doing it. But the one's who are invariably going to lose out are the middle of the road chains. Winn Dixie, Albertson's, Delchamps, etc. don't have a chance.>> I agree. I too live in the south - in the neighborhood where the owners of Winn Dixie live. I have 6 chain grocery stores within 10 minutes of my house: Food Lion (yuck), Winn Dixie, 2 Publix stores (Florida's favorite store), Harris Teeter (1 of 2 experimental stores in Florida opened by more northern chain) and Fresh Market (a more northern pale imitation of Whole Foods). Much to the Davis family's chagrin - the Winn Dixie had to close about 3 years ago - it was doing terrible. As a matter of pride - they "spiffed up" the store and reopened it just about a year ago. It carries stuff you won't find in other Winn Dixie stores - and you can tell it's really trying hard. Pont L'Eveque? You'll find it at this Winn Dixie. But - judging from the traffic I see there (my main store is Publix - but I shop at Winn Dixie once in a while) - and the "buy 1 get 2 free" offers - it looks like another bust. Overall - it seems that Walmart (along with places like BJ's and Costco) is taking market share from everyone. Only reason I don't have a Walmart close by is strict zoning rules in the beach communities in my area. But it's building just about everywhere else in the metro area. And I think it will eventually put about half the chains in Florida out of business (including Winn Dixie). Robyn

<<McDonalds, Burger King and other fast food giants have, it seems, already reached their limits and are in decline.>> Sorry Fresco - but McDonalds reported record monthly sales today. Robyn

I looked up Seattle. The Seattle metro area has about 2.5 million people - twice the number of people that we have here. We were in Seattle last year. Stayed in Bellevue - home of P.F. Chang . And you're right. The place was jammed (I had never been in a P.F. Chang - and we ate lunch there during a break from shopping in the mall). And Bellevue was similar to what we have here. In the sense that more restaurants than I expected were chains. Of course - the chain restaurants were higher end than our chain restaurants (we don't even have places like P.F. Chang - or Cheesecake Factory - or McCormick & Schmick - which I consider to be nice alternatives to the "food court" if you're spending a day at a mall - but that's about it) - and the non-chain restaurants were better than ours. On the other hand - we ate at an Indian restaurant one night. Our 3 Indian restaurants serve inedible food - this one in Bellevue served totally undistinguished food. Same result - you wouldn't want to dine at any of them again. Anyway - I was kind of surprised that Bellevue had so little. You could drive downtown - or go to Kirkland - or other places - but then you're getting into the same 30-40 minute drive that I was complaining about - assuming no traffic. So perhaps what I'm mad about isn't a regional problem. It's a national problem. I seem to recall an article in the New York Times a while back about chain restaurants like P.F. Chang (or similar places) opening in or near Times Square. Who on earth would eat chinese food at P.F. Chang's in a place like New York? Guess the answer is a lot of people. There is also a new organization - can't remember what the name is - dedicated to trying to get people to get out of the "chain rut" - and to try their local restaurants. Robyn

As for Atlanta being the most sophisticated city - ain't got no dog in that fight . It is certainly the largest. You are partially right about the geography. Our best restaurants are in a couple of areas where there are a fair number of younger people with taste and disposable income that are above the norm. Guess it will not come as a surprise that a substantial percentage of these people are gay. I'm not sure we'd have any decent restaurants if it was still totally unacceptable to come out of the closet (and it is still a little dicey in the Bible Belt). Unfortunately - I do not live in those areas. I live in a supposedly more affluent suburban area where most of the people are spending their last dimes on mortgage payments. You would think that people who live in expensive houses would support good restaurants - but - increasingly - during this real estate boom - people have been getting in over their heads when they buy houses. And - because everything is sprawled all over the place - I am about a 30-40 minute drive from the better restaurant areas (if there is no traffic). So they're difficult for dinner - and impossible when the cops are out trying to get their DUI quotas. Luckily - most are open for lunch - and that's when we tend to go (we can combine lunch with other errands in the area). Robyn

I was the person who used the phrase "Food Morons" and I stand by it. I too live in the south - but not in Atlanta (the largest most sophisticated city in the south) like you do. I live in the Jacksonville metro area (which has more than twice the population of a wonderful food place like Vancouver). And what do we have to show for it? Perhaps a half dozen small restaurants which on a good day might almost be as good as a place like Eno's. (Note to those not from Atlanta - Eno's is in my opinion a charming little restaurant in Atlanta with good - but not great food - I used it to give to robsimons a sense of what I was talking about). And that's it for the most part in terms of "dining". The rest consists of about a million chain restaurants - Chinese buffet and other ethnic restaurants with inedible food - a couple of handfuls of overpriced mediocre "fancy" restaurants - etc. There are of course some decent "fried fish" and "BBQ" places - but how many times can you eat fried shrimp and pulled pork without longing for something a bit more sophisticated. The big laugh will come in 2005 - when tons of Super Bowl fans try to fight their way into those 6 restaurants. And - in my experience - a couple of well-meaning chefs cannot educate customers. If all people want to eat is huge platters of greasy stuff with gobs of cheese on everything (there's a reason we have so many double and triple wides in the south - it's those huge platters of greasy food loaded with cheese) - the chef either obliges or goes out of business. I'll give you an example of how dumb people are. We had a fellow from New York open a "New York style" deli. One day I ordered a pastrami on rye. Good pastrami - but it came out cold with mayo. I sent it back - and asked the owner/chef what was going on. He laughed - and said that all the customers ate pastrami cold with mayo despite his attempts to teach them that it really wasn't the way to eat the stuff (although he of course took back my abortion of a sandwich and made me a proper hot pastrami with mustard). So if people can't even learn how to eat pastrami on rye - how do you expect them to learn to eat things that are more sophisticated? I know successful middle aged people who make a certain restaurant the most popular Italian place around despite the fact that all it makes is frozen meals from Costco. When a decent Italian chef opened a restaurant - he did ok business on Friday and Saturday - but had to resort to "all you can eat" fish nights to pull in customers during the week. The wait staff used to call the nights "f****** fish nights" - because the customers demanded a lot of attention and left lousy or no tips. Went to a "covered dish" Christmas party last week where someone was praising the curried fruit salad. I had overlooked it - and went back to find it. It was canned fruit salad with some red powder floating on top (I'm not sure it was curry powder). I passed. Anyway - I could probably fill half of this message board with my rantings and ravings - but I won't - at least tonight. Note that I am not in the food industry - and the thing I hate about the situation is that it's hard to find decent places to go out to eat. On the other hand - the situation has forced me to become a better cook. By the way - we had great meals when we were in Atlanta a few months ago. Robyn

Some kind of rivalry exists, though perhaps it wouldn't qualify as archrivalry. Resuming it a lot, Santamaría is about product and local heritage and Adria about innovation. Santamaría doesn't conceive a meal without wine playing an important role, whereas with Adria approach is almost impossible to match wine and food. Santamaría conceives each dish around a main ingredient, and certainly that's not the case with Adria. IMHO, there are some others that have created a third way taking the best from these two. Namely, Berasategui. From the foodie side, I'm glad to have both chefs around to pay them a visit now and then. God bless this kind of rivalry! OK Pedro - I assume from your posts and your biography information that you're in Madrid. Can't tell a lie. I was only in Spain once after I was married - for almost a month - but it was almost 20 years ago (was there also when I was a college student in the 60's but that doesn't count at all in terms of food). It was a time when the Goyas in the Prado didn't have air conditioning (that was sad) - and the main food choices in Madrid were kind of fun old fashiioned places like Botin - everything asado - and 3 star Michelin places that had pretty bad French food (Michelin would always give more stars to French food than the local food - no matter what country you were in). We traveled a lot in other areas of Spain - especially the North - San Sebastian - the Basque country- and the like - but about the most we got there was really nice fresh seafood. It's obvious that things have changed a lot since the last time I was in Spain. Tell me about Berasategui. What's the name of his restaurant(s). Where is it? And what is the third way? You are making it sound like it would be fun to go to Spain again (if nothing else - my husband and I both enjoy going to places where we speak the language). I know I can't make time to be there before 2005. In the meantime - if I go to La Broche in Miami when I'm in Miami next month - what can I expect (assuimg it's like La Broche in Madrid)? Robyn

You shouldn't write messages like this to an old broad like me. Floods my mind with memories. Ex-hippies. Let me see. I'm Cornell - Harvard Law School. But I also went to Woodstock (among other places - Woodstock is perhaps the only place I'd care to talk about in public). With half a dozen grilled chickens. Will trade grilled chicken for drugs. It worked at Woodstock <g>. These days - kids who would be younger than my kids if I had kids are more interested in Woodstock than Harvard. I am also an old-fashioned "foodie". Had a mentor and good training - dating back to when I was in my late 20's. Have traveled a fair amount - and eaten at a lot of fine places. Was out of commission the last 3 years or so. Elderly sick parents - nursing home stuff and death - it's just that time of life - we've had to stick close to home. Things are stable now - and we can travel again. So I'm playing catch up going through these message boards. First trip will be London this spring. Food's not everything. We also enjoy theater - and English language theater towns are London, New York and Toronto (in that order in my opinion). And I also love gardening - so the Chelsea flower show in London is a must (it's on my list of "must-do's" before I get too old - and I've never seen it before). My husband and I - like you - kind of long for the "good old days". Three star Michelin places at less than $200 including wine. You didn't need a written letter of introduction. Anyone with an AMEX card and a healthy appetite was greeted with a warm welcome (except perhaps at the top places in Paris - where more work was required). And the only time the chef wasn't in the kitchen was when his wife was giving birth. Seems to me there's too much money these days - chasing fewer and fewer great restaurants. Too much demand - not enough supply. Kind of the opposite of the 70's and early 80's. As for Spain - see my message to Pedro. I like your posts too. Regards, Robyn

I am slogging my way through a pile of December magazines and catalogues - and just stumbled across this month's Travel & Leisure. There's a timely article called "Spanish Revolution" which profiles 10 restaurants in Spain (El Celler de Can Roca; Arzak; Ca'Sento; Mugaritz; El Bohio; Tragabuches; El Poblet; Colbri; Santceloni and Echaurren). It's a puff piece - not a review - as are most T&L articles (T&L has even managed to make my home town sound like a culinary mecca - which it most assuredly is not). However the article did mention that that Adria's "archrival" was Santi Santamaria of El Raco de Can Fabes. Is this true - and - if so - what is the rivalry about? Robyn

This is way off topic, but this is not a very good example. All you are saying is that there are some things that you are so sure of that you are not prepared to discuss them. And in this class of propositions you are adding American foreign policy and the defiinition of 'tapas' a word in a language that is not your native tongue. With respect, the word has a very different meaning in England and Spain, and probably also in America, just as other words do like 'entree'. And Bux -- brush up your language skills -- you are lowering the tone here! I only have 2 things to say in response to your post. One's a statement - one's a question. The statement is simply that I have lived in multi-cultural environments for my whole adult life. I never dismiss people who speak English as a second language when they have something to say simply because they frequently say it in bad - poorly accented English. I do not expect to be dismissed simply because I am speaking a language as a second or third language. The question is: What is the definition of tapas in England - and what is the definition in Spain? (I suspect we have more Spanish speaking people from different Spanish cultures in Florida than England does - but I'm willing to hear what people in England think it is). By the way - if I recall what I said correctly - I said that food things were trivial compared to the issues that I thought were "beyond discussion". But - even though they're comparatively trivial (if I didn't say it before - I'll say it now) - I'd like to know the proper Spanish and English definitions of "tapas". Robyn