robyn

I am thinking very much along the same lines. I can't say that my kitchen is anywhere near professional - but one thing I learned looking at a lot of restaurant kitchens is how tight the space is - and the concept of the "line". Now my husband and I are just two people in the kitchen - so we don't need a "line" per se - but working in a relatively small space definitely helps rather than hinders. When the two of us are doing mise en place - we are almost shoulder by shoulder. Only time I ever had a big kitchen is when we were renting a house while we were building this house. It was big - but it wasn't efficient. And if a galley kitchen is "doable" - I'd like to take that big space on the left and put in an eating space. It's much more contemporary in spirit - people sitting in the kitchen before, during and after meals. And since meals with company seems to be a fairly regular event in this kitchen - the table could perhaps be somewhat rustic and double as a work prep area - and triple as a serving place for meals served in the dining room. I am not as keen as you are on glass-front cabinets (or open cabinets for that matter). When you have a busy family - you're not going to take the time to arrange everything all pretty behind the glass doors the way they do in magazines. In terms of having things all out in the open - it works ok if you use everything that's out in the open every day the way they do in restaurants. Otherwise - the stuff you don't use every day just winds up being covered with a thin layer of cooking grease and gunk. Opaque cabinet doors hide a multide of housekeeping sins . Robyn

OK - here is something radical to consider. Do away with the eating bar. And put a kitchen table in the left side of the kitchen. Will need some other changes - but the general idea is a galley kitchen on the right - with an eating area on the left. Might not work - but think about it. Robyn

I think that I was whining about the cost of dual fuel ranges, and someone pointed out Viking makes an all gas range with a self cleaning oven. Of course, that wasn't much less expensive than the comparable dual fuel! Ultimately (or rather, at least, currently), it appears that the most prudent route is to go with a gas rangetop with two electric wall ovens. By the way, I've learned a lot about cooking appliance terminology during this process. Cooktop, rangetop, oven, radiant, convection, sealed burner, open burner, dual fuel, BTUs, simmer level, continuous grates. That's just for starters! I don't know much about gas because I've never lived in places where there were gas lines. But "sealed burners" in an important phrase whether or not you're talking about gas. I have an electric sealed burner cooktop and I love it. Yes - sometimes when I'm trying to adjust temperatures - I have to lift the pot/pan off the stove. But to clean up - all I need is a sponge - and - if I make a really big mess - a glass scraper. I am a lazy middle-aged woman - and you're a younger guy with a big family. Is ease of cleaning important to you (it is to me)? Robyn

I keep looking at the plan that Dave the Cook drew up. You have perhaps twice as much space as I do (my kitchen is 10X14) - but my kitchen is more functional (although I did have the luxury of designing it from scratch for the way I cook). Can you give Dave the Cook enough information so he knows what's lurking beyond all those hallways and doors so he can draw up a somewhat enlarged floor plan. You have more than enough space - it's simply an issue of arranging it logically. By the way - I am getting confused with the numbers. At one point you mentioned that your appliance budget was about $8000 for appliances including $200 for ductwork. At another point - the total budget was $10000. At another point - you mention that you have to run a new gas line - and there's a wall with electrical stuff in it (which may well have to be changed/updated). Let's work backwards. Is $10,000 the entire budget for now? And - if it is - what are the most important things you want to accomplish at this point? Robyn

I am planning a trip to London. I signed up with ticketmaster.uk to get some theater tickets (wound up buying them elsewhere) - and they sent me an email coupon from Virgin wines which I believe is good for 20 pounds off a 50 pound or more purchase. It is for first time buyers only. I won't be using the coupon. So if anyone is interested - just send me email or a private message. I'll send it to the first person I hear from. Perhaps the person who gets the coupon can host a party for other forum members here and you can see whether you like Virgin wines. Robyn

As a lawyer - I feel competent to do contracts. I don't feel competent to act as a GC. Too many hassles with permits (the building department gives amateurs a hard time and I don't blame them). Worker's comp is also a huge problem (don't know what the law is there - but here - if you act as your own GC - you're responsible for all the worker's comp that a GC would have to provide). It would probably cost me more to place a policy than to hire a GC. Robyn

For what it's worth - I think a lot of people use the phrase "particle board" when what they're really talking about is "not wood". There are non-wood cabinets made of things like MDF that can be very high quality. And composite materials like MDF are frequently more stable than solid wood products in parts of the south (where one day it might be 80 and humid - and two days later it's 45 and the heat in the house has dried everything out). By the way - I am a big fan of humidifiers -you might try one to get your humidity above zero (it's cost effective - you'll save on heating and hand lotion ). As far as local carpenter/cabinet guys are concerned - I know that no one has discussed any of the legal stuff involved here yet. But - unless the laws where Varmint lives are kind of strange - you're dealing with the following areas at a minimum: building permits and inspections; contract law; and mechanics liens. Unless you know what you're doing - you want to deal with a general contractor who's responsible for everything. And - even if you use a GC - you have to make sure you have a decent contract and that you as the owner comply with your end of the mechanics lien law (which involves filing a notice of commencement, getting releases of liens when you pay draws, etc.). An owner who doesn't comply with the mechanics lien laws runs the risk of paying for his job twice - even if it's never finished. Because of the legalities involved - I am generally wary of dealing with small subs that I retain on my own (I have done it - but I'm a lawyer with some expertise in construction law - I don't need to hire a lawyer to make sure all the legal documents are done properly). Anyone who isn't a lawyer should retain one unless you're talking about a very small job. Robyn

As far as I'm concerned, you were hanging out with some weird people. I haven't known any New Yorkers who expressed those attitudes to me. Ever. Maybe a little "the chickens are coming home to roost," but none of the rest of it. I don't know anyone in New York who thinks we deserved it, and I certainly didn't know anyone who thought the atrocities were just an inconvenience. Isn't that what I said? Very well, perhaps we should get back to food now? How are your opinions about food different from those of a similarly situated New Yorker? I won't go into any more details. IMO - it's a real red state/blue state thing. As far as food is concerned - I can point out a couple of things. First and foremost - people from New York are willing to acccept really bad service/attitude in return for being in trendy places. Wouldn't care so much if this only poisoned places in New York (because I'm not there that often). But it also poisons a lot of otherwise good places in Florida that New Yorkers tend to frequent. I'm sure you know the routine (yes you had an 8 pm reservation but we just seated 15 people without reservations who are trendier than you are so you'll have to wait an hour). Or expensive places where the servers have spent more time learning how to get a good tan than learning how to be good servers. And then there is the dual level of food problem. The kind that Ruth Reichl pointed out in her first review of Le Cirque 2000 many years ago (when you're a nobody - there are no chunks of lobster in the lobster risotto - but you get a whole lobster's worth of chunks when you're a somebody). IOW - if you are a somebody you get this - but if you are a nobody you get that. To be sure - New York's not the only place you'll find these things (Paris comes to mind too) - and they are not universal - but they are a total turnoff when I run across them. Robyn

i'm fairly certain that this isn't some sort of blanket statement about all, or even most people from NY. yes, of this i'm fairly certain. I don't know because New York City has a lot of people. Most I know rarely venture outside of NYC - except perhaps to go to their weekend places a little bit outside NYC (a majority don't even know how to drive). And - when they do venture out a bit more - it's mostly to go to Miami. Your mileage - I hope - varies . Robyn

That's not true at all. I can't talk specifically about you (because I don't know you - and can't remember all of your posts) - but some peoples' opinions about certain things are simply more informed and more valuable than those of other people. Just to give you a silly example - I am a chocolate addict who knows a lot about and spends a lot of money on chocolate. I suspect my opinions about chocolate are more informed than yours. Maybe you know a lot about something else that I don't know about (could be a food thing - or nuclear physics). In that case - your opinions are more important than mine. Cultural relativism is not a good (or valid) thing in my opinion. Robyn

I live in the south - and a southern brisket is the worst thing I've ever encountered! Point cut - with every trace of fat cut off. You try to braise it - and it winds up tasting like old shoes. So I don't know what everyone is being snobby about . Robyn

His family members up here were a bit surprised when I mentioned that Dreamland was featured on a "BBQ Road Trip" segment on NPR and that he'd been interviewed for national radio broadcast. He was always known in the family as "the one with the BBQ place" - not thought of as successful. It's okay - I still like the ribs I mkae in my own smoker better than any I've had elsewhere. Add me to the list of folks who don't like tripe, tendon and the like. I ordered the "beef stew" version of Pho once at my local Viet restaurant and was truly disgusted, not realizing in advance what the contents would really be. I do like sweetbreads however.... I suppose there never is any accounting for taste. When it comes to offal these days - it's not simply a matter of taste. My husband and I love offal - and used to eat it frequently when we traveled. But since it's a relatively risky food now (compared to muscle meat) - we avoid it. Robyn

There's a difference between being friendly to regional cuisines - and being friendly to the people who live in the regions where those cuisines come from. Robyn

Well - if you want a point of view from someone who lives outside NYC and who has spent a lot of time there. My most indelible impression was on 9/12 (my husband and I happened to be in NYC on 9/11 - 9/10 was our anniversary) - sitting in a restaurant with an outside patio on the upper West Side for lunch. And with the WTC smoldering in the background - many of the people at that restaurant were saying that we deserved it - we had it coming to us. Most of the others simply considered it to be a massive inconvenience - like a bad snowstorm. I found the whole experience quite incredible - and strange - and disconcerting. I suspect even Steinberg would have been turning over in his grave had he been privy to what we heard. I was happy to arrive home a few days later - where the people weren't so weird. I heartily recommend that you and other New Yorkers take the time to see (and listen to) the rest of the country (a fair number of non-New Yorkers like me have seen most of it). Robyn

So far you haven't made an attempt to differentiate among the different kinds of people you might encounter here. There are all kinds. I am probably representative of one kind. My husband and I are close to 60. We are retired and well off. Neither of us is fat - but we're not thin either. My husband takes a lot of drugs for high blood pressure. At our age - we have to "eat healthy" to stay reasonably fit. So - if we're going to eat rich expensive food - which we can't do very often for health reasons - it had better be very good/great. And we're prepared to spend the money to eat that way. On the junk side - I like fritos - but they are a once a year perhaps on New Year's treat. If I wanted to be thinner - my diet would be more extreme. You can't compare people like me and my husband with people 30 years younger than us. Different point in life in terms of money - and metabolism. Certainly we aren't the same people we were 30 years ago in terms of food. Simply stated - we have more money - but less ability to consume. So we get increasingly picky about what we eat. Perhaps other people in this thread will tell us where they are in terms of life's continuum. Robyn

Look at Elkay. I have one large sink because I have lots of large things that need washing. Would have liked another smaller prep sink but I didn't have room for it. Robyn

Well - I came to residential construction by way of commercial construction. I am used to paying wholesale prices for fixtures and materials - hourly design fees - and bidding out labor contracts (not necessarily to the low bidder - but I always got 2-3 bids). The first time I crossed over to the residential side - I was surprised that no one complained about the generally outrageous markups (frequently 100% or more). Well - I didn't complain either - but I wound up doing my residential jobs the way I did my commercial jobs - using my commercial design firms and paying wholesale prices - and I probably saved lots of money in the process. By the way - let's be useful to Varmint. My kitchen numbers are out of date because the last time I did one was 7 years ago. Can you give him realistic numbers for cabinets per running foot at the low/medium/high end levels? Giving specific examples in terms of brands. Similar running foot figures for counter costs for formica/corian/granite etc. Same for flooring. Basic material prices without markups or installation costs. Robyn

Looking at the top wall - unless there's a compelling reason to keep it - I'd get rid of the closet on the top wall - and extension in front of it which cuts into the kitchen. I'd also even out the line of cabinets/appliances immediately clockwise of that area. But I think you're going very much in the right direction (in terms of where you want cooking/cleaning/prep areas - that is entirely up to you - considering the way you like to work in a kitchen). Robyn

As someone who has worked in the kitchen design field for several years, I can safely say that $20,000 won't even start to cover what you've outlined, especially with the inclusion of new cabinetry. Can you price out the cabinets assuming you're talking about medium level Home Depot/Lowe's stuff? I know a bit about kitchen cabinets. My current kitchen is 10 x 14 and has $25,000 worth of cabinets. But they're Poggenpohl. Suspect I could have done the same area for 1/3 or less the price at Home Depot. By the way - what cabinets brands do you normally work with? Robyn

Funny, I came to that same conclusion. I am short. One of the pet peeves I finally noticed while making my kitchen diary was that I hated upper cabinets. I had never really though about it before. I mean... EVERYONE has upper cabinets. You HAVE to have upper cabinets. NOPE. I got rid of them and the new kitchen will still have tons of storage, and two windows I couldn't have had otherwise. Also... Base cabinets will be all drawers of some sort. I also found out that I hate groveling on the floor. Thanks for the drawing, Dave. I get it now, unfortunately. I'm 5'0". And I share your pain . One solution I used in my current kitchen was along one wall - the refrigerator wall - I installed deep cabinets on the bottom - and tall but not so deep cabinets which sat directly on the counters. As for the other cabinets - they all have adjustable shelves which are adjusted very low. My base cabinets are wonderful. Mostly full extension drawers with tons of room. Note that my cabinets are European - made by Poggenpohl. It's not the cheapest way to go in terms of kitchen cabinets - but it's worth it if you can afford it (it's one of the advantages of being upper middle aged - that one has saved for lots of years and can afford these things - I certainly couldn't afford such luxuries when I was younger). Robyn

OK - here's a preliminary idea based on the sketches from Dave the Cook. Get rid of the sink and DW in the middle of the room. The wall area where the cooktop is now will be your cleanup area. Sink and DW. Going counter clockwise. Keep the eating bar where is it. Area immediately to the right - eliminate ovens and dishwasher and closet. Make food prep counter - possibly with food prep sink. Maybe leave room for second DW when budget allows. Again going counterclockwise - stick double ovens and wine fridge in that corridor leading to the office. You will have room left over for some prep area. By the way - you definitely want double ovens. I use mine all the time. And even if you only use yours a few times a year - as you get older - bending over all the time over a hot stove gets a bit tiresome. You also want those ovens to be self-cleaning (I don't like to suffer for my art - and - with your family - I suspect you don't have the time to). Again going counter-clockwise - leave the fridge/freezer where they are. Again going counter-clockwise - that leaves you with a big "L" for a cooking area. Lots of space for a cooktop - grill - prep area - whatever. Leave the pantry as is. A pantry is great. I have one which is maybe about the size of yours (perhaps a bit larger). It has floor to ceiling shelves on both sides. Amazing how much stuff fits there. I think the whole key is getting rid of the dishwasher and sink in the middle of the room. Once you get rid of those - you're looking at wide open spaces. By the way - there is a cool - albeit somewhat primitive - free tool on Better Homes & Garden.com. A floor plan program. Take a look. Once you measure what Dave has sketched - I think it will open your eyes to lots of possibilities. You know - once I saw the floorplan - well I don't think you're necessarily talking about a fortune to redo the thing. Considering your budget - you should look at nice looking but lower end cabinets. Not garbage - Home Depot/Lowe's kind of stuff. Don't even think about high end hardware except perhaps for cabinet pulls (there a little money goes a long way). Those cabinets will not have great storage capabilities. But that's what you'll use your pantry space for. You'll have to rip out the floor. Put in a nice functional low maintenance floor that will stand up to your kids and your cooking. As for appliances - I'm not exactly sure where you live in the southland. But - where I live in the southland - it's possible to buy a Viking stove - but not possible to get decent service for it. I wound up with Kitchenaid. And after my experiences with Kitchenaid service - I'd have to advise going with decent functional "builder's" level appliances. (Not to mentiion that the water here eats up my sink faucets every 4 years no matter how much money I spend on them). $8000 for the appliances you need sounds like more than you have to spend. I really don't think a $20,000 budget is totally unreasonably (it's probably low - but not totally unreasonable). As long as you stay away from a kitchen that's as high-end as the knife you just bought . Robyn

Dave - This is great (I'm one of those people who can do design stuff on paper - but I can't take what I see and put it on paper). The remaining questions (to me) at this point are why the dishwasher and sink wound up pretty much in the middle of the room. Is there something weird about the plumbing? If not - once you get that dishwasher and sink back to somewhat normal places - you're talking about a reasonably large regularly shaped room that you could do lots of things with. The possibilities are limited only by the client's budget . For what it's worth - I have a funny feeling this started as a "normal" kitchen many years ago - and it's simply a question of getting it back to "normal" now. Robyn

Does the load bearing wall between between the ovens and the closet extend just to the front of the closet - or does it extend through the area where the dishwasher is? Where does the plumbing for the dishwasher come from? Dave - you're a keeper - - you should have been an architect. Robyn

Have to admit - this is one of the worst kitchens I've ever seen . My idea of starting from sketches is looking better and better. Can you make a rough floorplan of the bare bones of the room showing what's structural and what's not? And a basic outline of where the plumbing is. Include the adjoining rooms so we can see what we're working with. By the way - I disagree with those people who say to start with things like the stove first. Your first priority is to get the "bones" of the room right. You can always upgrade appliances later. When you get the floorplan ready - it would also be good to prepare a short list of what you would like to do in this area (cooking only, cooking with eating counter, do you store food here or do you have a separate pantry, etc.). For what it's worth - after looking at these pictures - I wouldn't spend a lot of money doing something like putting a big deal stove in the existing configuration. It's not cost effective and it doesn't make sense. You have to think in terms of gutting the space and starting from scratch. Robyn

I have "old school" linoleum (although it is new and expensive and imported from Europe - Forbo Marmoleum). It is very pretty - very easy on the feet after hours in front of the stove - and an absolute pain in terms of maintenance. Before I installed it - I didn't know how soft linoleum was - and how easily it scuffs. So what you have to do is seal it with a couple of coats of wax - and then strip it to get the scuffs out - and then reapply the wax. I only strip it about twice a year - but my husband and I don't have kids or pets - and I normally walk around the house in socks or bare feet. I can't imagine how much waxing the floor would need if you walked on it regularly in heels - or had kids of pets. Note that in terms of spills and the like - there's no problem at all. It damp mops beautifully. It's the major maintenance that's time-consuming. By the way - I have a housekeeper - but I'm the one who winds up doing this floor because it takes a very long time to strip it and have the coats of wax dry. There's no way to get anything else in the house done when kitchen floor maintenance is "in progress". I liked my previous floor covering better. Vinyl tiles with circles made to look like commercial rubber flooring. The vinyl required a lot less maintenance than the rubber - which requires industrial buffing. Unfortunately the product line I liked was discontinued before I did this kitchen. Robyn