robyn

The food in sketch library is astonishing but not cheap - the night I went I didn't have any wine as I just couldn't it. I'd didn't have the lamb but the table next to me did & it looked amazing. The interior is quite, what the word, different? Some hits, some misses. they took me around the build afterwords & i was a bit suprised at the "video" room - large hite room white art video projected on the walls & all these expensively dressed kensington-types looking completely out of place in what is a "young" room. As for the library - can't wait to go back Ace cooking on a budget - try lunch at the Capital - which is just around the corner from harrods. If you don't mind my asking - what is "not cheap"? I have read that the average cost is about $200 a person (which I assume is only for food) - and I also read a customer review where the customer spent 750 pounds for dinner for 2 including a modest amount of wine. Robyn

Do any places other than those already mentioned do new and interesting variations on the "school dinner food"? I know that something like shepherd's pie lends itself to numerous variations - because I've seen them on menus in US restaurants and in recipes in US magazines. By the way - I was doing some reading last night - exploring web sites. Has anyone here ever used http://www.viewlondon.co.uk to make a restaurant reservation? What were your experiences like? I've read that the concierge staff in our hotel isn't terrific - so I would prefer to make reservations myself. And quite a few restaurants I'm looking at don't have web sites of their own - so my only alternative would be international phone calls. Robyn

I'm going to guess that robyn may be referring to VIP Harbor Seafood, at Barrington & Wilshire, upstairs, about a mile and a half from the Getty entrance. I've only been there once, but it was very enjoyable and I think they recently started serving dim sum for dinner. Coincidentally, there's an El Pollo Inka in that mini-mall also, it's good, but IMHO I would not place it high on the list since you only have a few meals in town. hollywood mentioned Father's Office for a contemporary burger. I've had it many times, and IMHO it's damn good for a frou-frou, yuppie burger - aged beef, carmelized onions, blue cheese, and I think arugula. Matchstick frites or sweet potato fries (extra) with aioli. They also offer a few small tapas. The after work scene makes it hard to get a table and eat, the room is small and noisy, etc. But they have a great beer selection, and decent selection of wines by the glass. For a more normal type burger, Fatburger is my personal favorite. (Kingburger, chargrilled - 8 oz - everything except relish - onion rings on the side). In-&-Out and Apple Pan are nice for a bit of LA atmosphere. Just to clarify, I think mixmaster b linked to the right thread but the restaurant is named Din Tai Fung. Soup dumplings! Pasadena is pretty close to Arcadia/SGV/Monterey Park, etc. so if you want Chinese food, there are several good, regional restaurants in those areas, some are arguably of the best in the US. Also, I've not been yet, but I've been wanting to try Nonya in Pasadena - Malaysian "grandmother" cuisine. Perhaps your hosts may have more info on it. I know you have a tight schedule, but if you happen to be in town and available, we're currently discussing an eGullet Korean BBQ meal around that time. If you end up on Olvera Street, Mr. Churro is a tiny shop that has sticks of deep fried simplicity, rolled in cinnamon sugar and I also recommend getting them filled with cajeta (milk caramel). For a cheap hit of Matsuhisa food in a casual setting, Ubon on the ground level of the Beverly Center is a worthwhile stop, IMHO. ~Tad Yes - that sounds like the place. And it is certainly better than similar places in Boston or Chicago in my opinion (if that is one of the crtieria). As for the Getty - agreed about the collection in general. But I would spend an afternoon there even if the museum were empty. Because the complex and grounds are simply spectacular. I can only imagine how Richard Meier felt building this place on a basically unlimited budget - an architect's dream job. There are amazing touches everywhere - the finishes in the bathrooms - the louvers which work electronically to control the light in the galleries - etc. I'm not sure anyone mentioned it - but although admission to the Getty is free - you *must* have a reservation to go there in terms of parking unless you have a student ID. I don't think anyone has mentioned sushi. Don't know if the person who started this thread likes it - but - if the answer is "yes" - Los Angeles is one of the cities in the US where you absolutely must have it. On our last visit we went to Sushi Katsu-Ya in Studio City. It was terrific. Worth a trip from Florida - not to mention Pasadena :). Robyn

We have a friend who's a neurologist. He specializes in dementia. He works at the University of Kentucky now. He did some interesting work associating the consumption of squirrel brains in that area with various forms of dementia. So I don't think you'll ever find squirrel brains on my plate. By the way - this isn't a joke. Robyn

Do you like Cafe Boulud? My husband and I ate there a few years ago (we were staying at the hotel it's connected to). We were not impressed. It was - like you say - supposed to be a "Cafe" - and it was just about as expensive as Daniel. Plus the tables were so squished together we could hear everything the people next to us were talking about. Which turned out to be a hoot - beause they were lawyers discussing details of a case in Florida that friends of ours happened to be on the other side of. At some point though - we told them who we were - and told them to shut up - because what they were saying became too intimate. Anyway - considering the prices - we were underwhelmed. On the other hand - we went to Boulud's new restaurant in Palm Beach in August and liked it a lot. The place - in our opinion - struck the right balance in terms of food and atmosphere for Palm Beach. The food was exactly right in terms of scale and flavors for hot tropical nights - and not only is the room very pretty - it's every designer's dream of how a Palm Beach dining establishment should look. Also - the service was excellent. On the other hand - we were there in August - dead low season. Places that are very agreeable in Palm Beach in August can be intolerable in February - when 20 groups of diners are competing for the same table. So we'll see how the place is reviewed come high season. Robyn

I have never eaten at the FL - but I have eaten at many fine restaurants in the countryside of France (and other countries). I have also eaten at many fine "city restaurants". One type of experience isn't necessarily better than the other - they're just very different. You don't go out in Manhattan in the morning to pick fresh herbs out of your herb garden. So one important issue will be whether Keller can migrate from a successful "country environment" to a successful "big city environment". Another important issue will be whether he decides to do a "one seating" restaurant (which I suspect the FL is - and which is very unusual in New York City) - or a "multi-seating" restaurant (which is the norm). I don't know how anyone can do 15 little courses in a multi-seating restaurant without pissing everyone off (everyone will have to eat at 6 or 10). On the other hand - his economics will be very different depending on this decision. I seem to recall that he owns the place where the FL is - and that he bought it a long time ago. So his overhead is fairly fixed - and probably relatively low. I assume he is paying rent in New York - and that it isn't relatively low. So the decision of which way to go may determine whether or not he succeeds financially. I'll note that when you talk about the meal prices in various big cities - the prices can vary a lot even if the food is the same depending on how many seatings the place is trying to do. The more seatings - the less overhead every diner has to pay. That's one reason a restaurant like AD is so expensive - there's usually one seating - and that one seating is paying the overhead for the table for the night. Most of New York seemed to resent AD for doing this - because it was highly unusual for New York. On the other hand - it would have been the norm in Paris. Robyn

At Ginza Sushiko in Beverly Hills - the price (which was about $300 last time I was in Los Angeles) was a fixed price for omikase dinner. If you went there - that's what it cost. So I suspect the $500 is a fixed omikase dinner price too (unless there are optional seasonal supplements that might increase the price). I think the higher price in New York is probably due: 1) to higher rent (the place in Beverly Hills was in a high rent district - but it was on the second or third floor of a somewhat pedestrian building that also housed a parking garage if I remember correctly); and 2) to higher shipping costs for the raw ingredients. Robyn

I have only eaten big deal Japanese food a few times in my life (in Hawaii - and on the west coast of the United States and Canada). The prices of the raw ingredients are extraordinarily expensive to start with in Japan - and high end chefs tend to fly them in daily from Japan - because the types of fish and cuts of fish they want to serve aren't available here. I never ate at Ginza Sushiko in Los Angeles (which was tiny) - but I did eat sushi at larger restaurants with equally good reputations. Average cost was about $150/person only for food. And you're not talking about people with enormous appetites. At the last place I went to - the best tuna was about $20 per piece (and it was worth it - the kind of tuna I've had at the best places out west isn't anything like I've found in the east). Ginza Sushiko was always more expensive because it had to spread its overhead (including rent in a very high rent area) over a much smaller number of diners. For what it's worth - my favorite Japanese isn't sushi - it's the long formal dinner composed of many small courses. There is a specific name for it - but I forget what it is. A lot of the dishes I've had were so exquisite they didn't even look like food. And don't forget all the costs in addition to food (like 12 table settings for each diner - you really need a lot of dishes - and they have to be really nice dishes to boot). Robyn

I don't know that I would label CT in that way (I have never been to those restaurants you mentioned either). I ate the same meal Adrober did, and thought it was definitely tasty. Charlie Trotter's focus is more on sourcing out unbelievably good ingredients. Nobody should ever go into a fine dining place and expect unbelievably, soul-satisfyingly good food, manna prepared by god himself, and lots of it. Food just doesn't get that good. For that, they should find a really good burger or pizza, IMO. P.S. The whole "really best" ingredients thing was a trend in restaurants that started when most people didn't have access to a lot of these ingredients. Today - lots of people in major metropolitan areas have access to those ingredients. I was at a "farmer's market" in Beverly Hills last year (sounds strange - but that's what it was) - and the fresh produce looked "to die for". And - even if you're like me - and you don't live in a place like Beverly Hills - you can - increasingly - buy things on line - next day fedex delivery. So the restaurant that serves Jamison lamb isn't such a big deal - even for me - because I can prepare it at home. Ditto with Hudson Valley fois gras. Not to mention that when I get a real "Jones" for cheese - cheese and chocolate are 2 of the big loves of my life - ranking only slightly lower than my husband :) - I have it delivered overnight from a web store in France. So my main goal when I go to a big deal restaurant is not only to get the best ingredients - but to have them prepared in ways that I either can't (or won't) do myself because the preparations are too complicated for my limited skills - or I don't have the time. Robyn

I don't know that I would label CT in that way (I have never been to those restaurants you mentioned either). I ate the same meal Adrober did, and thought it was definitely tasty. Charlie Trotter's focus is more on sourcing out unbelievably good ingredients. Nobody should ever go into a fine dining place and expect unbelievably, soul-satisfyingly good food, manna prepared by god himself, and lots of it. Food just doesn't get that good. For that, they should find a really good burger or pizza, IMO. I think you're wrong. But - more importantly - when I read your message - although instinctively I knew you were wrong - I didn't know why. And that made me think :). And I think I came up with an answer. When you say that what you like most are pizza and burgers - you're just talking about certain food tastes. I can't identify them 100% because I don't know you - but perhaps it's the cheese that you love - or the decadence of beef with lots of grease. Whatever. But you are not going to find these food tastes at a raw food restaurant like Roxanne's (which is being discussed in another thread). However you can find great cheese - or dishes with cheese - that will make you look down your nose at your everyday pizzas for a long time. By the way - I'm not sure this is the right answer for you. But it is the right answer for me. I know what I like - and I realize that sometimes I go to restaurants after looking at menus where not a single item appeals to me simply because I think I *should* be going to that restaurant. When what I should be doing is going to restaurants that are serving great dishes that use foods that I know I love. A perfect example for me is restaurants that specialize in fish. I am very French in the sense that I don't think most fish was ever meant to be a main course in a very big deal meal. A course between the appetizer and main course - ok. But not the main course - because most fish is too delicate. I would kill for a perfect sole with a perfect beurre blanc sauce. But I would consider it inappropriate as a main course. Also - I am curious. Don't know where you live or where you've traveled. Have you ever tried the burger at Cafe Boulud in New York (I'm pretty sure that's the Boulud restaurant it's served at)? It's supposed to be outrageous. The best burger in the world stuffed with fois gras - something like that. There are some pretty classy restaurants doing burgers these days :). Robyn

I think you have hit the nail on the head. Most American diners are food morons. I live in a southern city similar to Raleigh/Durham - and most of my neighbors can't taste the difference between Chef Boyardi and the kind of pasta I cook at home. As for higher levels of Italian cooking - they're totally clueless. The most popular Italian restaurant here buys its entrees pre-made and frozen from low-end wholesale places - and microwaves them. In addition - I think another factor at work is that so many younger people are putting so much money into their houses - and have such incredibly huge fixed expenses - that they don't have enough disposable income to pursue things like high end dining or travel. I know people in their 30's here who own houses that cost $500,000-$1 million - but they have never spent $200 for a couple for dinner - or stayed at a Ritz Carlton or Four Seasons. Every last penny goes to make the mortgage payment and the car payments. By the way - my in-laws used to live about an hour south of the Triangle area - so my husband and I used to eat there once in a while (we always needed to decompress after visiting). We had some decent meals - but the only memorable one was at Crook's Corner ages ago when Bill Neal (think he was the chef) was still alive and in the kitchen there. I'm sure we never would have found the place on our own - a friend took us - because he insisted we had to try this new-fangled dish - "shrimp and grits" - which was perhaps the first example of "new southern cooking". It was the concept of the thing - perhaps more than the execution back then - and certainly more than the restaurant itself - that put Crook's Corner on the map. I still have an old Bill Neal cookbook. It's interesting reading - even though I never have and never will make a dish using squirrels :). The better new southern restaurants these days aren't in Raleigh/Durham though (in my opinion). They're in places like Charleston - where there are lots of tourists who don't mind spending big money dining. So - if I were an aspiring chef - as opposed to a cook - the Triangle area would be far down on my list of places to start working unless I had some compelling reason to be there. Robyn P.S. Even though my favorite cuisine is French - Italy is my most favorite country to eat in (it's hard to beat great food served without an ounce an attitude anywhere you go).

P.S. I happen to love poached pears although they are not particularly southern. For the holidays - I make a gingerbread cake with poached pears and cinnamon cream. You might do it as a holiday variation on the poached pear cake you're doing now. Robyn

Zilla - I live in north Florida - the southernmost part of the south :). Haven't been to Louisville recently - although I once met a fellow at a bar in Chicago who owned a bunch of restaurants there - and my husband's old neurologist is now head of neurology at the University of Kentucky teaching hospital. Do people in Louisville demand trendy? If not - how about something just plain melt-in-your mouth good - like the best sweet potato pie? We have a potato and cabbage festival every spring here (bet you didn't know that we grow potatoes in Florida) - and it is hard for me to imagine any better dessert than the sweet potato pies the church ladies cook up. I have favorite sweet potato pie recipes if you're interested. Robyn

I don't know where you are from - or what you're looking for. I am from nowhere and am always looking for everything :). We had excellent dim sum at a strip shopping center place right near the Getty when we were there a couple of years ago. Perfect pre-museum stop in my opinion. Robyn

Can't tell a lie. I only read about 1/3 the thread - and then started to nod out. My husband and I go to Chicago about every 2-3 years - and have had some very good meals there. Especially lots of ethnic food we can't find at home (including such basic staples as Italian). Have never been to CT. But - from the description - it sounds like restaurants like Jean Georges in New York - and Azul in Miami. Very cutting edge - very intellectual. You feel out of place if you're not in black head to toe. At best your taste buds will be challenged - and you will appreciate the interior design. And you will feel trendy. But you'll never think that anything you eat is "yummy". You will never say to the person you're dining with - "no - I won't share - I want it all" :). If you drop a morsel on the floor - you won't try to distract everyone around you while you try to pick it up. I have eaten at quite a few restaurants like this - and - although I know they have their fans - they are not my cup of tea. Deconstructivist/intellectual architecture is a little boring. Deconstructivist/intellectual food is a lot boring. I want "yummy". Like when I put the food in my mouth - my mouth should be excited (sorry - I edited this sentence for content - didn't know if this was a PG audience). Just my two cents. Robyn

Bux - I see that you are active in terms of France. Let me tell you a little story that I think neatly ties up the issues of France - and drinking hard liquor - and knowing what to do/not do at fancy places - and how to express one's self when things aren't going right. My husband and I were very fortunate to have a mentor when we learned how to eat at fine restaurants. A business colleague about 20 years our senior - who had served in France during WWII. After WWII - he spent about 3 months in France every year. One of his best friends in the world was Nino - the head bartender at the George V. On our second or third trip to France to see our friend - I got a bad cold. It was late winter. I am not much of a "brown spirits" person - but everyone decided that I could benefit from some Johnny Walker Black. This was not something to have at dinner - it was definitely something for mid-afternoon :). So me - my husband - our friend - and Nino went to Joe Allen's - and they ordered me a double Johnny Walker Black - straight up. I tasted it - and although - like I said - I am not a "brown spirits person" - it didn't taste right - it was too rough. I was reluctant to say so - but finally said something. My husband tasted it - our friend tasted it - and then Nino tasted it. All of them are scotch drinkers - and all agreed it wasn't Johnny Walker Black. So they summoned the waiter to the table. And told him that. The waiter got all huffy - denied the "drink switch" - and basically said - "who the heck do you think you are?". Well - my husband and our friend were basically "nobodies". And if they had been the only 2 people with me - I think we would have had an ugly scene. But Nino got up (he was pretty short - but he got up tall as he could) - and said in a grand way - "I am the head bartender at the George V - and this is not Johnny Walker Black!". He did everything but throw the contents of the glass in the waiter's eye. And the waiter apologized - went back - and got me a drink which everyone agreed was Johnny Walker Black. I couldn't swear to it - I just know it was a lot smoother - and I forgot about my cold after I drank it :). Guess the moral of the story is sometimes all of the stuff I mentioned in the first paragraph doesn't matter - it just helps to go drinking with the head bartender from the George V :). Robyn

Mayhaw Man - Thanks for the compliments. I am glad that I am retired - and I am a fast typist. So I have the time to say what others would also say if they had the time. I tried to look up the "Adrober" debacle - but couldn't find it. Can you point me in the right direction? Apart from all of the philosophy - there are perhaps some basic nuts and bolts rules to keep in mind. For example - if you are going to a really big deal restaurant - and you are not a "regular" - try to avoid Friday and Saturday nights - and Valentine's Day :) - if at all possible. Go during the week. The staff will be less pressured - and so will you. Many world class restaurants serve lunch - at bargain prices compared to dinner. Unless the restaurant is a "power lunch" venue for the rich and famous in a city like New York - lunch can be a relatively inexpensive way to eat great food in a relaxed setting. Just don't do a lunch like this if you have to be back at work by 1:30 - or have a 5 pm deadline the same day :). Note that I live in Jacksonville Florida - so I am never a regular at great restaurants :(. With most of them - I only get there once in a lifetime. But staff who might be too busy to refill my water glass on a Saturday night can usually spend lots of time with me on a Wednesday night. Everyone is more relaxed when the people who arrived for the 8:00 seating aren't still waiting at the bar at 9:00. These ideas won't necessarily insure success - but they will maximize your chances. I'm sure that if we all put on our thinking caps - we can come up with other "basic nuts and bolts" suggestions. Robyn

...I don't know how this compares with "New American cuisine"... Jonathan - I guess the major difference is that most new American cuisine is based on traditional domestic foods - and also the influences of immigrant groups living in particular areas of the country. It doesn't really draw on countries outside the US unless a fair number of people from those countries live in the US. When I look at the dishes in your "modern European" category - well - a majority are "European" - from different countries in Europe - as opposed to what I think of when I think of the UK (although something like venison with parsnip mash seems British to me). Doesn't surprise me - since the geographical scale of the United States is much larger than that of Europe. I can fly 3000 miles from where I live and still be in the United States. If I headed east from the UK and flew 3000 miles - well I can't even count the number of countries in that circle. Also - I never discount the "Michelin effect". I think that the Michelin guides are wonderful for evaluating French food in France - but they tend to give undue emphasis to French food in countries outside of France - and to ignore more local cuisines. When I was much younger - I wound up eating a lot of very bad French food in Europe outside of France in reliance on Michelin guides. I would have been better off "staying local". And that's what I try to do now when I travel unless there's an exceptional French chef in the kitchen. Anyway - I think what I am looking for is "Modern British" - the wonderful mutton that grandma would have made if she had had terrific mutton to start with (which I'm sure she didn't) - and had been a good cook:). Etc. Not British interpretations of French - or Spanish - or Italian cooking - but what good chefs are doing now with their own indigenous cuisine in an extended period of relative prosperity. I don't know how old you are - but when I first went to the UK in the 1960's and 1970's - my dominant impression was that country hadn't yet recovered from the ravages of WWII. Seems like the post-WWII prosperity which people my age in the US take for granted didn't come to the UK until about the 1980's. And all the good things about prosperity - including good cooking - started about that time. By the way - I am enjoying the discussion in this thread. Will be out of town and off line for a few days starting tomorrow. So I'll see you all in a few days, Robyn

What Robyn said. ;) Eating is definitely enhanced by knowledge, as just about all endeavors are, but it's not like playing a violin. It's about eating. A natural and imperative human need. A restaurant should be about pleasing the diner and one should never be made to uncomfortable for their dining experience (unless, of course, someone is being rude or obnoxious). And like everything else, a million people can say something tastes good and if it doesn't taste good to you that doesn't mean you're uncouth. It just means you're you. So my advice would be: 1) Go with the attitude that you're there to enjoy yourself. 2) Be polite and sincere. A good waiter will be happy to explain unfamiliar foods and terms. 3) Try foods you've never had before and always try something more than once if you didn't enjoy it the first time. 4) And remember---it's just food. Not a cure for cancer. You're absolutely correct - and not only because you agree with me :). The most important parts of the dining experience are a chef who likes to please his customers - and a customer who enjoys eating good food. And that's true whether you're eating in a local rib joint - or one of the world's most famous restaurants. I am almost tempted to ridicule people who think it's very complicated - but then I remember how neurotic and anxious I was when I was in my 20's (a long time ago) - and taking my first baby steps in the mysterious (and expensive) world of "high end dining". I think the difference today is that good food used to be an end in itself - even for the very highest of high end chefs. But things changed over the years (it didn't happen overnight - and it didn't happen yesterday). Today there is so much more - the TV shows - the cook books - the "food weekends" at high end hotels - being "trendy". Just complicates things more for those people who are just starting their journeys. Take care, Robyn

I know it's not in your preferred neighborhood - but Seastar in Bellevue is a pretty restaurant with a wonderful raw seafood bar (that is probably a bit of an understatement - the chefs can do more than simply serving unadorned seafood). We were in Bellevue last year and enjoyed it so much we ate there twice.

I meant the UK equivalent of "New American" cuisine - whatever it might be called. If I had to define it - it would be chefs taking what is best about their local cuisine - and modernizing it in various ways. In many parts of the US - a lot of chefs do "fusion food". E.g., in parts of Florida - it is popular to take traditional ingredients like seafood and combine with them with latin influences. On the other hand - some chefs don't do fusion. They just take what is best about their traditional cuisine - and try to improve on it (in many cases by using the best possible freshest ingredients). It is really hard to explain - easier to know it when I see it :). I first saw evidence of that when I went to the UK in 1987. My last trip had been in 1977 - when almost all the food I ate was just this side of dreadful. But by 1987 - there were restaurants serving lighter - more inventive - more interesting - and definitely more tastey versions of British food. We had several memorable meals (I can still remember them!). The dishes didn't look like piles of glop (and taste worse) - like they did in 1977. So that's what I'm looking for - if it exists. Or something similar. Perhaps a better phrase would be "new directions in UK cuisine". What is the difference between "English" and "Modern British"? Robyn

Isn't Sketch the new restaurant that is supposed to make Alain Ducasse in New York look cheap :)? I have only read a little about it - didn't get a firm impression whether the food was worth the price. Do you or anyone else have any thoughts about it? I also seem to recall that there are dining alternatives (including a bar) in addition to the main dining room. Is my recollection correct? Robyn

the mutton suet pudding at rhodes 24 is a serious contender for my dish of the year award. moist, fluffy, squidgey, suetey crust stuffed with meltingly tender slow-cooked mutton (3 years old, rhodes couldn't find his desired 5 year old) and onions. it comes with three little jugs of sauce - an onion soubise, a caper sauce and really intense mutton gravy - so if you chemistry-set it about with these you can have a different tasting mouthful each time. i want it again. NOW. m That recommendation puts it on my "must try" list. Robyn

Jon - Agreed. Especially about the filet of beef - which has always lacked flavor in my opinion - and is usually mushy to boot. I think the difference between me (over here) and those of you (over there) is that not only does mutton have scarcity value - so does good lamb. It's just really hard to get here. I probably feel the same way you feel about lamb when I look at shrimp. There are simply so many of them - and they are so cheap in season - that I don't give them a second thought. If I lived in the mid-western United States - I'd probably think they were an exotic item. Also - I suspect that chefs find what I call "Depression" cuts of meat more fun to cook with than more expensive cuts. They adapt more easily to lengthy cooking methods - like braising - which can infuse them with lots of (frequently very nice) flavors. When it's cold here - which isn't that often - I have fun braising things from time to time. Robyn

Jonathan - I read the thread you referenced - and you are probably right that we are getting old lamb instead of mutton. Just like it is almost impossible here to get a proper cut of brisket these days. I.e., a whole brisket where every ounce of fat isn't trimmed off - it's almost impossible to cook a flat cut of brisket without any fat on it and have it turn into something other than shoe leather. And when you do get a proper cut of brisket - it requires a lot of braising (not the 7 hours you say is needed for mutton - but about 3 hours). That said - I have had older lamb in the UK - and younger - and - as a matter of personal preference - I prefer the younger. And - have you tried the restaurant which was mentioned - 24 Rhodes I think it is. And is their mutton as good as yours :)? I will try anything at least once if someone thinks it's delicious. Robyn