eliotmorgan

Did anyone ever teach you that vehemence doesn’t add cogency to an argument? Actually, Ducasse has his largest personal equity stake in ADNY and the newly opened Mix. I worked at ADNY until I recently moved from NYC. We can get more particular if you'd like. Now where does your knowledge of The Ducasse Group come from?

France has become a sort of culinary museum. If you travel you certainly must know this. Your comment about Spain borders on the hysterical. Robert Brown can defend himself, but I agree with his central point: France has lost it culinary centrality. Of course there are many French chefs doing exceptional work. That said they are not alone. I have a great respect for the old ways, and they are the foundation of any decent culinary education here, but French chefs have a lot to learn from American and Spanish chefs. We have a lot to learn from each other. The best chefs in France readily admit this. Your panties are in bunch. Rethink your rant and resubmit.

Who the hell does this pretentious schmuck think he is? Per Se? Give me a break," Fat-Guy writes. Truer words on this topic and this place (NYC) could not be spoken in relation to restaurants. NYC is a scene town, the scene is more important than the food in most cases--Le Cirque spent a small fortune adjusting the height of its chairs after its patrons complained other diners couldn’t see them. Ducasse was hanged, drawn and quartered because he tried to give NYC a level of luxury it hadn’t seen both on and off the plate, and New Yorkers, ultimately provincial, don’t take well to folks who surprise or, god forbid, instruct. They do have it all, right? Say’s so in the movies and the papers. We use to test anyone who claimed to have eaten there with the question, “But what did you think of the bar?” Most failed this, but it’s kind of like asking about Trotter’s extensive whisky selection. New York’s 4 Star restaurants largely make money on a small clientele: bankers, consultants, tourists, and business travelers. The reputation—another matter-- is by the NY Times and those who fill out the Zagat Survey, most of whom have never set foot in the restaurant they’re reviewing. Such fraud can cost a restaurant hundreds of thousands of dollars, and can sink an upstart. Even Ducasse had evenings when fewer than 20 clients were served and unbeknownst to the general “foodie” public they had the best French food in America. As long as Keller can avoid a Wm. Grimes “preview” and has the smarts to “democratize” his fare, and most importantly provide his PR people with some standard blurb about how he has learned a great deal from NYC or finds “inspiration” for his food there he’ll be fine. Then maybe the NY Post won’t claim folks were spitting his food out into their napkins.

At 65 seats it's the exact number as Ducasse (ADNY).

Zagat ratings are unreliable because many of the reviewers haven’t eaten at the restaurants they rate. Zagat asks for no proof and you’re free to pull any answer out of your rear end. For some reason people feel completely comfortable rating restaurants that they’ve heard others talk about have seen pretty pictures of but have never been to. It is, however, a handy restaurant address and phone book.

The Harvard of Taste? LOL! He seems to have said it without the slightest hint of irony. You’d think a French Minister would allude to "the Sorbonne of taste."

The Beard Foundation is certainly worth $125 if you're in NYC. If you're in the industry you'll wonder why they don't schedule more events on Sunday, but besides that you'll love it. When I was at Peter Kump's I went as often as possible. As for discovering "new" Chefs, the Beard Foundation is probably not the place--Kinda like going to the Academy Awards to discover a new actor. Eating Trotter's, Adria's, Tramonto's food at Beard House is not like eating at their respective restaurants, but if you can make it to Chicago, or Roses it's better than missing out entirely. That said, Beard is a great place to meet folks--like an eGullet.com offline

I agree with you on the aesthetics of food. When my wife and I lived in Hong Kong, we entertained more than a few guests who were horrified by fish or foul served with the head on. It’s actually prized in most cultures, but here they become dog food. Try finding blood to make traditional blood sausages in a supermarket, or a Duck with its head on to prepare Peking style. That said, I am interested in the techniques raw foodiests use, because they can, with profit, be incorporated into normal cooking.

Thanks Steve, My wife and I just ate at Frontera last Friday, only spent 1 ½ hours there because we had Marriage of Figaro tickets at the Lyric. It was crowded as usual with cabs and SUV’s coming and going (we ate outside). The tamale of the day was goat meat. I had no time to ask Bayless face to face what he thinking but the people I asked in Chicago—my home town—thought it was “cool.” The awful food at the Lyric is another thing all together. Rodney Strong jug wine for $5 to $7 bucks a glass? Evian for $3.00 for a 16 oz bottle?!! My 3 Tobolabampo martinis kept me from stooping to my normal raiding of the concession stand. The opera ended at 10:30, hungry again I considered going by Burger King. We dropped by the Weiner’s Circle instead—Chicago’s other great democratic institution on north Clark. It’s all good, and again thanks for the explanation. I still think Bayless is awesome, and I'm glad to see him make the big bucks. The Chicago Tribune guy has is right. It is a step in the right direction.

Fat Guy, spent $2.99 for about an ounce of mint at Garden of Eden. Moved away from NYC a few months ago where mint is considered a weed and goes for about $.50 for 8 oz. Even bunched tightly it’s hard to hold in on hand. Rhubarb is about $.75 a pound. That said, when you’re in NYC you have Zabar’s, Whole Foods, Garden of Eden, Citarella, and Balducci’s. All over priced. Don’t feel silly for buying exactly the amount you need. If you buy more they’ll just end up sprouting and you’ll have to throw them out. That mini-mart has to pay the rent

Understood, but since I'm fairly new to egullet.com could you suggest one? I'm serious. I'd like to know what you think about this.

That would simply indicate that she has poor taste. Fat Guy, in all seriousness do you believe there is any such thing as objective taste? This could be the ultimate source of our disagreement.

Who had the power to keep those passangers trapped on the plane, or to change the menu? I don't think Rick Bayless actually read the ingredients in that sandwich. Back, and to the left. Back, and to the left. Back and to the left.

Amen

The short answer is "yes," she's being bought. That's why you get to watch her television program for free, so you can be sold to. I'm beginning to feel like the guy magician on Fox that revealed all the standard tricks

William Burroughs is older than dirt. He can afford to sell out at 80 years old. Bayless still has some life left in him. William Burroughs is dirt. He died in ’97.

It would be like William Burroughs doing a Nike commercial.

(I dream of the day I’ll be able to go into McDonald’s and have the interaction go something like this: Me: I’ll take a quarter-pounder. Them: Lamb, venison or beef? Me: I think lamb, and some fries—what kind do you have? Them: Taro, beet and potato. Me: Taro sounds good—never had taro fries. What sizes do you offer? Them: Sorry, only our normal small size—we’re an everyday place. A sparkling juice to drink? Me: Lamb, taro fries—no I think I’ll have a glass of Zinfandel.) Bayless wrote this on his My Webpage. We’re slowly getting there. These changes are indeed coming about, and now McDonald’s is hiring Oprah’s trainer, introducing diet menu’s and much to my chagrin eliminating the beef broth dipping step from their French Fries. Steve, I grew up when Folgers Crystals were “secretly replaced the fine coffee” in a high end restaurant ; when KFC took pride in the word “Fried,” and a McDonald’s apple pie was deep fried too . Tang was considered an alternative to orange juice , and eggs were considered “a heart attack on a plate.” You couldn’t buy butter anywhere because margarine was considered healthier . Hell, LaChoy was considered Chinese food —“swing America.” We’re a long way from Steak’Ems, and Manwich, and Bayless has played a positive role. His more democratic turn should be given a chance. I’m reaching out again, Steve. We’re winning. Food is getting better for the general public. Isn’t that the goal? I do hope the Chef’s Collaborative doesn’t embarrass itself with a public censure or ostracism of Bayless. What will there position be? There’ll be fewer but better chefs? PS. I'm slowly figuring out how to use the tags. The part that says "my webpage" is a link to RB's site and the quote of his fantasy exchange with McDonald's. It's food folks; let's lighten up.

But that step was in the right direction. Some will discover RB's earlier work, and then Jeremiah Tower and Alice Waters. Others will just have something that's a step above the candy bars they've been eating in the place of meals.

I do hope you’re wrong on this point, but I mentioned my experience with BK’s LeRoy Neiman posters during the ’76 Olympics because it did open up my worldview on contemporary art, and the move was greeted with similar outrage in by the high minded in artistic quarters at the time. Bayless has reached many through his restaurants, through PBS, and his books. The BK deal enables him to reach more, and it is a palatable sandwich. Stepping in the right direction is a good thing for a company as large and as influential as Burger King. I see no losers in the Bayless Burger King deal, and tremendous upside potential.

“Hardly any more,” Steve—point conceded, though it’s a distinction without a practical difference if ever there was one. It’s like arguing over the “greatest” ocean since “hardly” and “greatest” share the elasticity in which your logical lapses lie. Your opinions aren’t at all offensive, and I’m rather enjoying your hysterics. What I find strange is your absolutism and near religious ferocity about a cook who decided to cash in with tongue firmly in cheek. I’m trying to tap into my inner Eric Schlosser to commune with you but the attempts have me laughing. There are many people out there in the real world who eat candy bars for lunch. They don’t have the time or luxury to debate the RAW food movement or Slow Food, and they have no idea who Rick Bayless is—yet. Hollywood, you indeed understand my use of the word “hustler.” The Bayless issue reminds me of another Burger King Ad campaign when I was in 4th grade. Like most kids on my side of town, and adults for that matter, I laughed at modern art. I remember it being encouraged. The word “modern” itself was considered a pejorative, and modern art was art for the elite. Then Burger King released an advertising campaign where you could get a LeRoy Neiman “lithograph” if you bought a Whopper and had it “your way.” (Don’t laugh, Neiman still isn’t accepted in art circles for this “sell-out” stunt) Much later, in college, I looked up the responses in our more respectable art journals and they read like the true believer rants some have written in this thread. Neiman still receives “thank yous” from people who had doors opened to them in a way some though inappropriate, and had never been approached without condescension. Bayless has most likely lined his pockets and opened his message up to a potentially larger audience at the same time. In any case, I hope he’s enjoying the big bucks.

Michael Nischan—here’s to walking the walk and indeed there are many chefs who just do their thing. Indeed, you’re right, but for every Michael Romano there’s a Danny Meyer and chef owners have to fill both of these rolls if they want to keep their doors open. Fantasy rules the high end of the market. Steven I’m a little taken aback that a veteran food writer would pass along the old canard that higher quality products and more costly food techniques can be done for the same price. They cannot. If you have such business acumen then open the shop yourself and teach agri-business and the restaurant industry a thing or two. I quoted the use of the word “sin” in the context of this thread, and no matter how positive you are about processed onion rings at BK I’d still like to focus on the language of morality you chose. Bourdain is primarily a writer and polemicist. The Howard Stern to most chefs Jerry Seinfeld. With all his bulls*it about Emeril Lagasse, he jumped at the chance to join the Food Network and I say, good for him. He’s a hustler with wares to sell of his own. He’d be a fool not to. Recently he wrote that he was flummoxed when a child asked him what it was that he currently does for a living. I love his honesty, and own every book he’s written up to Typhoid Mary—can’t bring myself to buy Cooks Tour. Now here’s your out, I can’t buy CT for probably for the same reason you can’t buy RB’s BK gig. Fine. Skp it. But the sermonizing is ridiculous. Bourdain’s in his criticism of Bayless said it best: Chefs are indeed--and always have been--"hustlers" of a sort. You hustle your product, your own image, your operation. Fine.” Fine indeed.

Indeed the Dalai Lama is not a vegetarian but the Panchen Lama is reported to be:-) I suggested the books to underscore just how deep such food beliefs go.

Wolke’s article is hilarious! Thanks bigwino. I love to cook too. The Juliano book “RAW” excludes some of my favorite raw food: Meat and Fish. It declares these things dead and employs a language that conjures up images of eating a carcass on the side of the road or a teammate in the Andes. It’s usually best to ignore the sermon and get to the meal, that’s where as Lady T has pointed out, “we can judge it on its culinary merits.” If you like the sermons by the preachers and true believers of this particular culinary religion I’d suggest the following books. They are fun to read and present some real howlers. Ethical Vegetarianism: From Pythagoras to Peter Singer Religious Vegetarianism: From Hesiod to the Dalai Lama Both by Kerry Walters The Sexual Politics of Meat: A Feminist- Vegetarian Critical Theory The Pornography of Meat Both by Carol Adams

Just spoke with someone from Ten Speed Press about this book. I've been waiting for it for about 14 months. It's been delayed 3 times, and the initial printing of 20,000 volumes to arrive next Monday is already oversold with a waiting list mounting. An additional printing will be available 21 November. My Green Power Juicer, Dehydrator and Vita-Mix are at the ready. I love new food techniques. I expect this book to be much better than the Juliano book also titled "RAW." I should mention that this book is collaboration between Trotter and Roxanne Klein. I'm very familiar with Trotter's food, but I've not had the pleasure of eating at Ms. Klein's restaurant yet. It's a natural match, Trotter's vegetable menu is excellent. You can call 10 Speed directly at 1-800-841-2665 or you can pre-order it on Amazon or Barnes and Noble. As for drawing the line: "we" don't. Food is much to personal for that.