Vetri's Osteria

[matthewj]

Don't you ever sleep?

[Vadouvan]

but they're still not perfect: a touch too bready and with a hint of sweetness that tells me that someone's been helping the yeast along with honey or sugar. I know, I am being *extremely* difficult, heck, even in Italy I'd call these very good and difficult to surpass, but given that Mr. Vetri in most other ways can be favourably compared to his best competitors in Milan, Turin or Rome, the distinction has to be made.

Dude are you serious ?

His competitors in Milan or Turin ?????

Just enjoy the damn pizza ........how can you taste nuance in the dough with the toppings ?

[guzzirider]

Do you want the dough to rely on natural, cold fermentation,... really I am intrigued.

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Sure - if you've got time and space to let the dough live a natural life, why not? Basically, it would be sort of like a sourdough... just keep feeding it flour and water to make up for what you use each day, and it might be fine. I don't see why sugar would be a necessity, although it would probably make things a bit easier to manage.

BTW, have you ever stumbled accross this bit of madness from Jeff Varasano? http://jvpizza.sliceny.com/

My guess is that this guy Varasano might just be obsessed enough to tell if a particular crust has sugar or not!

__Jason

[Capaneus]

...one of the places that doesn't is the bakery - headed by a vietnamese gentleman who has lived in France for a long time, apparently - that Mr. Ansill goes to for the bread at Pif...

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Artisanal, you mean?

[lfabio2007]

Dude are you serious ?

His competitors in Milan or Turin ?????

Just enjoy the damn pizza ........how can you taste nuance in the dough with the toppings ?

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Why would I not be? Among the retaurants in Milan and Turin that I've been to recently: Aimo e Nadia (still remarkable, perhaps a little tired), Cracco Peck (perhaps the best, still too impressed with itself), Il Cambio (Sadly a shadow of its former self, still a place to visit), Vintage 1997 (no comment), Filpot (..creative, very creative, but remarkable), Guido (still one of the best in the Langhe), Al Sole (Trebbo di Reno, near Bologna, only included because the approach to cooking is very much similar to Vetri's). I still want to find the time to go to Cesare's, but it's quite a bit out of the way.

The one fault I find at Vetri is an overreliance on generous amounts of fat, plus perhaps the fact that as of late the enthusiasm that was there three years ago or so is lessened (which is probably why Osteria was opened, but that's a whole other topic). Otherwise, I do not see a good reason not to include him with the above.

As to the pizza, that's what the edge of the crust is for and I'm on a personal crusade against sweet doughs. As I said, one of my many failings.

[lfabio2007]

To all who asked about the pizza dough: yes, if you can afford 24 hours of patience and feed it the way guzzirider suggested, the yeast can do very well without sugar or honey. And the difference, when you bite into the edge of the crust, is very much there. Add a wood fired clay oven and proper toppings (and the toppings at Osteria are *really* something to talk about) and I might even momentarily forgo the rest of the menu.

As to sleep, that's overrated. There is food to be had!

Edited March 28, 2007 by lfabio2007 (log)

[lfabio2007]

Artisanal, you mean?

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That would be it, yes. I was told by friends that it's in an area of town which requires... some caution. Any advice?

[Vadouvan]

Why would I not be? Among the retaurants in Milan and Turin that I've been to recently: Aimo e Nadia (still remarkable, perhaps a little tired), Cracco Peck (perhaps the best, still too impressed with itself), Il Cambio (Sadly a shadow of its former self, still a place to visit), Vintage 1997 (no comment), Filpot (..creative, very creative, but remarkable), Guido (still one of the best in the Langhe), Al Sole (Trebbo di Reno, near Bologna, only included because the approach to cooking is very much similar to Vetri's). I still want to find the time to go to Cesare's, but it's quite a bit out of the way.

The one fault I find at Vetri is an overreliance on generous amounts of fat, plus perhaps the fact that as of late the enthusiasm that was there three years ago or so is lessened (which is probably why Osteria was opened, but that's a whole other topic). Otherwise, I do not see a good reason not to include him with the above.

As to the pizza, that's what the edge of the crust is for and I'm on a personal crusade against sweet doughs. As I said, one of my many failings.

Few posts demand single word british answers....

Rubbish.

The pizza is good, there is olive oil, cheese, suasage, cured meats...

What's this nonsense about reliance on fat.

Everything in Europe relies on an abundance of fat.

I thought you said you were Italian, the impeachment of fat in food is a uniquely american problem and europeans just eat their pork and triple cream cheeses and wash it down with vino.

That's why pork is the "other white meat" in America while the japanese and eating tons of kurobuta.

Edited March 28, 2007 by Vadouvan (log)

[Vadouvan]

I'm on a personal crusade against sweet doughs.

The perception of Sweetness and all the other parameters of taste are not evenly detected by human beings to the same degree of accuracy.

I would put down the shield and coat of arms and chill with the crusade.

[lfabio2007]

Few posts demand single word british answers....

Rubbish.

The pizza is good, there is olive oil, cheese, suasage, cured meats...

What's this nonsense about reliance on fat.

Everything in Europe relies on an abundance of fat.

I thought you said you were Italian, the impeachment of fat in food is a uniquely american problem and europeans just eat their pork and triple cream cheeses and wash it down with vino.

That's why pork is the "other white meat" in America while the japanese and eating tons of kurobuta.

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Perhaps you'd like to amend your answer after reading my post again. The 'overreliance on fat' was referred to Vetri, not Osteria. I do not, by any stretch of the imagination, impeach fat in anything. Quite the contrary: I am a strong proponent of the fact that fats not only taste good, but they are not the health demon that Americans make them out to be (I make an exception for cooked olive oil, but that's a very long story). I do, however, merely observe that in last couple of meals in particular at Vetri's there was too much of the stuff in more than one dish: the artichokes served with the Branzino were oversaturated badly and other dishes could have perhaps used a little less. Do I enjoy fats and understand the importance of these to convey liposoluble flavours? Absolutely. Do I however think that a *delicate balance* of everything is one of the things that makes dishes truly remarkable? Yes indeed. I do not mean to imply that I do not like Vetri, mind! As a matter of fact, I made a reservation to go there just an hour ago, because I'll be out of the country for a month or so and I always like to make sure that I go there before I leave. I only happen to believe that there is always room for improvement. For what it's worth, incidentally, the problem is not there at Osteria - the food there is also very, very good. If you caught me on a bad day I'd say that this is no coincidence, given where Marc Vetri actually spends his time these days.

[Capaneus]

Artisanal, you mean?

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That would be it, yes. I was told by friends that it's in an area of town which requires... some caution. Any advice?

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Well, last time I went there I got run over by a station wagon while riding my bike down Passyunk Ave. to go get some bahn mi to top off my croissants. So you'll want to be more cautious than I was, certainly. If your friends' worries are about street crime and such, I'd say their worries are misplaced. Particularly since Artisanal runs out of stuff before the criminal element gets out of bed. Elsewhere in the city, that is.

[guzzirider]

I'm on a personal crusade against sweet doughs.

The perception of Sweetness and all the other parameters of taste are not evenly detected by human beings to the same degree of accuracy.

I would put down the shield and coat of arms and chill with the crusade.

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All he did was state and opinion based on his observation (about the dough possibly being a bit sweet for his liking). Is this sort of thing not allowed here? After all, it's not like he's setting up a picket line outside Osteria to protest their use of sugar.

I'll restate my previous opinion that the collective PA forum needs to chill out a bit. We're just here talking about food... not curing cancer after all.

Just my 2¢.

__Jason

[philadining]

While we're being both off-topic and nudgey, the name of the South Philly bakery is "Artisan Boulanger Patissier." It's at 1648 south 12th, just off Passayunk, which is not an especially seedy neighborhood.

[philadining]

All he did was state and opinion based on his observation (about the dough possibly being a bit sweet for his liking). Is this sort of thing not allowed here?

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Of course it's allowed, it's encouraged, but so are dissenting comments.

Obviously Vadouvan has strong opinions about a lot of things, as do many of us, and I personally like to hear all of them. A little disagreement never hurts as we discuss these various subjects, many of which come down to personal preferences. As long as we're not calling each other names, I say keep the opinions coming, on all sides! (I've heard a few comments recently that other regional boards on eG are envious of the activity and level of discourse we have here on the PA forum.)

That said, let's keep Katie's life simple and remain civil...

I can't speak for Vadouvan, or Ifabio, or any of the other contributors, but I'm sure their comments aren't meant to quash the debate, they're just their perspectives. If any of us have a different one, we should post it!

[Vadouvan]

All he did was state and opinion based on his observation (about the dough possibly being a bit sweet for his liking). Is this sort of thing not allowed here? After all, it's not like he's setting up a picket line outside Osteria to protest their use of sugar.

I'll restate my previous opinion that the collective PA forum needs to chill out a bit. We're just here talking about food... not curing cancer after all.

Just my 2¢.

__Jason

Jason it's no big deal, nobody needs to "chill-out", these are passionate discussions about food and cookery and succinctly stated disagreements on the internet are not food fights.

We are all adults and in most cases know each other.

If this was chowhound or craigslist we might be taking it too seriously but last time I checked EG is a *serious* food discussion forum.

Of course fabio can offer his opinions and he defends it very well.

He is clearly someone very knowledgeable.

"I dont like sweet dough"

is very different from

"I am on a crusade against sweet dough"

which assumes that I have determined the dough is too sweet and my tastebuds are the reference standard for the entire population....which isnt true.

We would also be assuming Vetri and Michaud cant tell the difference between sweet and savory which is absurd.

[jmbrightman]

Artisanal, you mean?

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That would be it, yes. I was told by friends that it's in an area of town which requires... some caution. Any advice?

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There is nothing wrong with the area, aside from limited parking.

[lfabio2007]

Jason it's no big deal, nobody needs to "chill-out", these are passionate discussions about food and cookery and succinctly stated disagreements on the internet are not food fights.

We are all adults and in most cases know each other.

If this was chowhound or craigslist we might be taking it too seriously but last time I checked EG is a *serious* food discussion forum.

Very well stated.

Of course fabio can offer his opinions and he defends it very well.

He is clearly someone very knowledgeable.

Thank you! I appreciate that.

"I dont like sweet dough"

is very different from

"I am on a crusade against sweet dough"

which assumes that I have determined the dough is too sweet and my tastebuds are the reference standard for the entire population....which isnt true.

We would also be assuming Vetri and Michaud cant tell the difference between sweet and savory which is absurd.

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Well, I look at it from a slightly different perspective: I may have worded things somewhat aggressively, aside from my personal dislike - which as you very correctly state depends on individual sensitivity to sweetness, etc - there is no doubt that adding sweetner to the dough to help the yeast is a shortcut in the rising process: it saves time, gives the process more predictability, etc, I'm sure we're all familiar with the chemistry involved. Precisely because I respect Vetri and Michaud's abilities and knowledge - I did state that fairly clearly, I think - I find that that could use improvement, that's all.

As a matter of fact, I think I'll just take a shortcut myself and ask the next time I'm there.

By the way, I did mention it was a failing of mine: there are some culinary situations that cause my blood pressure to rise rapidly (another is olive oil in risotto, another slightly different one is poor service). When I encounter them, I tend to get ... somewhat vocal.

Mr. Varasano, btw, to which the link was provided, seems to be a man after my own heart. As he states, he makes a Neapolitan pizza, which has a higher crust... and seems to be very particular about the way he accomplishes it (we can discuss whether to precook the sauce and some points about the mozzarella, but his observations about the crust and the dough are precisely consistent with my knowledge: no sugars, sourdough starter, big 'bubble' texture, proper charring in a wood/coal fired brick oven because gas ovens produce H2O while cooking ... which is why the good pizza alternatives are electric).

As to Artisanal, I'd like to thank all the posters and will go take a look. Someone mentioned times: what is the latest one can hope to find bread there? While my job description allows me to be on the internet from 8AM onwards, it would be materially more difficult for me not to be at work in the morning.

Edited March 28, 2007 by lfabio2007 (log)

[Vadouvan]

Fabio

No offense meant, none taken.

If we didnt have strong opinions, the PA forum would be as exciting as playing boccie ball in antartica.........

[mrbigjas]

As to Artisanal, I'd like to thank all the posters and will go take a look. Someone mentioned times: what is the latest one can hope to find bread there? While my job description allows me to be on the internet from 8AM onwards, it would be materially more difficult for me not to be at work in the morning.

i've been there as early (or late, depending on how you look at it) as 1 on a saturday and they were basically closing up.

[philadining]

As to Artisanal, I'd like to thank all the posters and will go take a look. Someone mentioned times: what is the latest one can hope to find bread there? While my job description allows me to be on the internet from 8AM onwards, it would be materially more difficult for me not to be at work in the morning.

i've been there as early (or late, depending on how you look at it) as 1 on a saturday and they were basically closing up.

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And I've been there closer to noon and all the best stuff was gone...

[KatieLoeb]

A little disagreement never hurts as we discuss these various subjects, many of which come down to personal preferences. As long as we're not calling each other names, I say keep the opinions coming, on all sides!

Yes. I'm particularly enjoying the level of discourse lately. Some of our newer member have really stepped it up. Thanks and keep it coming.

(I've heard a few comments recently that other regional boards on eG are envious of the activity and level of discourse we have here on the PA forum.)

As they should be. I've got it pretty good as the hosts around here go...

That said, let's keep Katie's life simple and remain civil...

And let's keep it that way, OK? I do love my job when it's easy. Clearly I have you all well trained at this point.

[guzzirider]

Jason it's no big deal, nobody needs to "chill-out", these are passionate discussions about food and cookery and succinctly stated disagreements on the internet are not food fights.

[snipped for brevity]

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Fair enough. I'm a relative "outsider" in this forum myself, however I may be a bit more vocal than some. I have spoken (offline) to some who have told me that although they lurk here frequently, they choose not to post here simply because it would feel like walking into a den of lions. So while I can appreciate the desire to keep EG more on the serious side of things, I just think it could be tempered a bit at times. Sometime passion gets mistaken for hostility, especially during faceless online discussions. Things get taken out of context here, which wouldn't happen if the same people where having the same discussion while sitting next to each other at a bar.

But I digress.

Back to our regularly scheduled programming...

__Jason

[lfabio2007]

i've been there as early (or late, depending on how you look at it) as 1 on a saturday and they were basically closing up.

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And I've been there closer to noon and all the best stuff was gone...

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Mhm! Thanks - then I guess it's saturday and/or asking Ms. GF if she'd like to go venture into Philadelphia.

[lfabio2007]

Fabio

No offense meant, none taken.

If we didnt have strong opinions, the PA forum would be as exciting as playing boccie ball in antartica.........

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Same here! And yes, you're right. We just have to stop shy of where Katie decides that a nice Magnum champagne bottle makes for a good ...ah, crowd control device.

[philadining]

Yet another rave (surprise, surprise) from The City Paper.

I think it's just a typo, intending to be "candele", but is there such a thing as "canela" pasta? There are so many names for the various shapes and formulations that I can't keep up, so there might be... I'm just curious!