Paying for the Wedding

[Swisskaese]

Wedding, Potlach, Wedding, Potlach, Wedding.... Many a marriage has foundered on the wedding.

I'm simply incapable of even understanding inflated celebrations, much less participating in them. For many people, that wedding and honeymoon could have been the downpayment on a house. Beyond that, mostly one hears tales like this of ill will and anger generated and perhaps lasting for years.

My personal belief is that wedding parties are most moving when intimate, limited to one's immediate family,  held at home.

And wedding or whatever, it's crude to plan a party and plan for someone else to pay for all or part of it.

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What is Potlach?

[Catriona]

My personal belief is that wedding parties are most moving when intimate, limited to one's immediate family,  held at home.

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My thoughts exactly, Mott. (and my wedding exactly!)

[prasantrin]

What is Potlach?

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You might have looked it up by now, but in case you haven't, a potlach is a big First Nations/Native American (depending on if you're from Canada or the US) feast. Traditionally, there were food and gifts involved, and entertainment. And I think the host family gave away a lot of their things, but I'm a bit hazy on that (it's been a long time since 4th grade social studies). The word "potluck" comes from "potlatch", I think.

You can read a little about it on wiki.

[Daniel Rogov]

Even though one hesitates to go against Wikipedia (that body of knowledge that too many have been convinced has been handed down by the hand of God from Sinai), many anthropologists are in wide agreement that the potlatch as we know it originated at least five to six hundred years before the Native Americans adopted the habit.

Many concur that the potlatch started in the Indonesian Islands and others of the Pacific island, especially among those of the Maori tribes. Because status was considered of paramount importance, during such events family units would invite the entire village to a feast, and during the course of that sumptuous meal (the more sumptuous the better) would give away just about everything they owned, among the only things not being given were the house itself and any income bearing property that was part of the family holdings. Everything else was fair game – slaves, edibles, household goods, clothing- As Zorba might have put it "the whole catastrophe", The more one gave away and the higher the quality of the giveaways, the greater the status of the hosting family.

Despite Christian missionaries who put a stop to this, there was good logic to the potlatch, that being that because every family in the village had no choice but to hold at least an annual potlatch, nearly all property in the end became communal and because of that hunger and poverty were basically eliminated from the tribal unit. Better yet (and we of the 21st century modern world will do well to learn from this), it taught all that wealth itself was a temporary thing, and certainly not the only thing worth striving for.

When the potlatch reached North America it took on a somewhat different form, especially among the Kwakiutl, Nootka and Chinook tribes of Northwestern America Every citizen of the tribe was invited to the potlatch. In order to avoid a chaotic scramble, the first and most valuable gift was given to the most important person present. Then the next highest ranking individual got his gift, and so on down the line until the lowliest citizen received his or her pittance. At one Kwakiutl potlatch, held in 1869, twelve hundred and forty guests were invited. The gifts included twenty two canoes, sixteen male and six female slaves, fifty two elk skins, two thousand silver bracelets, seven thousand brass bracelets, and thirty thousand blankets. The guests consumed 50 seals, 9 buffaloes and the steaks and livers of six small whales.

Switching gears somewhat, perhaps it says more about me than it does about either ancient or modern cultural habits, but I have no problem at all in understanding the potlatch. I do, however (and many of the comments in this thread reinforced my thinking) have a problem in modern western weddings. So help me, I cannot understand just why anyone would want to invite 200, 300, 400 or more guests to a wedding the planning of which throws families into life-long resentments, the often earth-shaking cost of which make me shudder, and to which at least 75% of the people invited really did not want to attend in the first place.

This is no hard-heartedness of my adancing age. I have felt this way since the tender age of sixteen, wondering for example precisely why one might say that the wedding day is "the most important day of one's life". I would somehow imagine that one's own birth (or death), the birth of one's children, the moment we have come to know some modicum of peace and wisdom might be far more important. I am not demeaning love. I am, however, thinking of a modern world in which a young man looks adoringly into the eyes of "his" girl and says "I love you so much that I want you to be my first wife".

[Luckylies]

Is there any possibility the kids are asking you to pay for your guests because you're inviting people thy're not interested in having attend?

I know this is a bit of a rude question, but the topic is so loaded with potential misstep, I figured you likely have thick skin for posting in the first place.

If my parents invited lots of people I didn't care about or for to my wedding (hypothetically) I'd start to shift the balance of responsibility too...

[annecros]

Is there any possibility the kids are asking you to pay for your guests  because you're inviting people thy're not interested in having attend?

I know this is a bit of a rude question, but the topic is so loaded with potential misstep, I figured you likely have thick skin for posting in the first place. 

If my parents invited lots of people I didn't care about or for to my wedding (hypothetically) I'd start to shift the balance of responsibility too...

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That's an interesting question. But a guest list of 20 out of 200, hardly a hardship upon the bride's family makes, even if all 20 (unlikely) were despised by the bride and her family.

Not my question to answer, of course.

How many are "lots", and if you didn't care for the 180 people the bride's side invited, where would you draw the line? What if some of those people you dislike are members of the wedding party you are committed to entertaining? It can get quite silly. A wedding day SHOULD be set aside as a neutral place to celebrate a union.

We had a JP wedding, and didn't even tell our children we were getting married. It was the most beautiful ceremony I have ever attended.

You just have to do the best you can in these things. It is so hard to walk the chalk line. In my stepdaughter's case, I was pretty much invited not to do anything. Then guess who did everything when the thing happened? In our case, she really thought that everything would magically be perfect when the day came. I guess it was, but if I had the opportunity to get busy and do the work from day one, things would have been even nicer.

As it was, everything was "perfect" and everything that she had "dreamed" of happened thousands of dollars and much sweat later. I love her and my new son in law, but it is hard for me to understand why people choose to do things the hard way.

[Darcie B]

I think "informing" you about the payment is utterly crass and totally inappropriate.

However, tackiness abounds. My parents pretty much paid for the whole shebang first time around, except the rehearsal dinner and flowers, which my sister-in-law provided since she had a floral business. They even paid for the whole bar at the reception. My inlaws and their friends then went around town and ran up tabs in my parents' name at several bars and a restaurant. My parents ended up having to sell a travel camper in order to pay the bills that my inlaws rang up. I only found out about it this year (17 years later). Hard feelings toward my ex's family are still apparent nearly 20 years later.

My parents had a budget that I adhered to, and we cut costs where we could (made our own food for the reception, etc.) My parents put forth a lot of time and effort into making my day special, and I will always cherish the love they put into it, even though my ex turned out to be just like the rest of his family. (My family knew he was a dud. I think one of the happiest days of my mom's life was when I told her I was getting a divorce).

For the second (last!) marriage my husband and I had a few very close friends over to our apartment, and a co-worker, who was an ordained minister, performed the ceremony. Including dress (clearance) and food (which I made), I think that wedding was about $150. And it turned out much, much better.

[Mottmott]

Is there any possibility the kids are asking you to pay for your guests  because you're inviting people thy're not interested in having attend?

I know this is a bit of a rude question, but the topic is so loaded with potential misstep, I figured you likely have thick skin for posting in the first place. 

If my parents invited lots of people I didn't care about or for to my wedding (hypothetically) I'd start to shift the balance of responsibility too...

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From memory, but I think what Laurie posted: it's the parents of the bride (who have invited over 200 people) asking the parents of the groom who has invited 20 people to pay for that 20. Does the word chintz sping to mind?

And to ice the wedding cake, keep in mind the couple has been married 2 years.

Edited November 30, 2006 by Mottmott (log)

[WHT]

Is it the second time around for both of you? If so all traditions go out the window. I would

keep the reception more like a cocktail party than a formal event. If the season allows for a BB=q do that for the rehersal dinner. just my $0.02

[LaurieB]

To further elucidate (as my dad would say), if we were to be told to invite whomever we wished (money no object), our list would probably not top 40. 20 is our immediate family (which is obviously quite small) and a couple of very close friends. I would understand fully if we were told that we needed to split the guest count 3 ways, based on how many the hall could hold, but to date, we have not heard a) how many we can invite or b) the cost.

Just saying.

So for now, my plan is:

Sit back, relax and wait for some word from the bride's mom.

Stay tuned for Days of Our Wedding Lives.

[Mottmott]

To further elucidate (as my dad would say), if we were to be told to invite whomever we wished (money no object), our list would probably not top 40.  20 is our immediate family (which is obviously quite small) and a couple of very close friends.  I would understand fully if we were told that we needed to split the guest count 3 ways, based on how many the hall could hold, but to date, we have not heard a) how many we can invite or b) the cost. 

Just saying.

So for now, my plan is:

Sit back, relax and wait for some word from the bride's mom.

Stay tuned for Days of Our Wedding Lives. 

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Just out of curiosity and for the complete dish, has the groom's mother been hit to pay for her guests, too?

[annecros]

To further elucidate (as my dad would say), if we were to be told to invite whomever we wished (money no object), our list would probably not top 40.  20 is our immediate family (which is obviously quite small) and a couple of very close friends.  I would understand fully if we were told that we needed to split the guest count 3 ways, based on how many the hall could hold, but to date, we have not heard a) how many we can invite or b) the cost. 

Just saying.

So for now, my plan is:

Sit back, relax and wait for some word from the bride's mom.

Stay tuned for Days of Our Wedding Lives. 

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Just out of curiosity and for the complete dish, has the groom's mother been hit to pay for her guests, too?

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mottmott darling, you are talking to the groom's stepmother (LaurieB, not me). The groom's mother agreed to split the bar at the reception with the groom's father and LaurieB, which was quite generous. I would wonder if the groom's mother is inviting any guests, just to keep things stirred up! Better LaurieB than me, at this point.

LaurieB, please correct me if I am dishing incorrectly.

Stepping back is probably a very good strategy at this point. There may be dynamics unknown and unheard of going on between bride - mom- groom- siblings. As long as there is time, it's cool. When it is all sprung on you at the last minute, then there is a problem. Patience all around, and communication.

Edited December 1, 2006 by annecros (log)

[Mottmott]

To further elucidate (as my dad would say), if we were to be told to invite whomever we wished (money no object), our list would probably not top 40.  20 is our immediate family (which is obviously quite small) and a couple of very close friends.  I would understand fully if we were told that we needed to split the guest count 3 ways, based on how many the hall could hold, but to date, we have not heard a) how many we can invite or b) the cost. 

Just saying.

So for now, my plan is:

Sit back, relax and wait for some word from the bride's mom.

Stay tuned for Days of Our Wedding Lives.  

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Just out of curiosity and for the complete dish, has the groom's mother been hit to pay for her guests, too?

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mottmott darling, you are talking to the groom's stepmother (LaurieB, not me). The groom's mother agreed to split the bar at the reception with the groom's father and LaurieB, which was quite generous. I would wonder if the groom's mother is inviting any guests, just to keep things stirred up! Better LaurieB than me, at this point.

LaurieB, please correct me if I am dishing incorrectly.

Stepping back is probably a very good strategy at this point. There may be dynamics unknown and unheard of going on between bride - mom- groom- siblings. As long as there is time, it's cool. When it is all sprung on you at the last minute, then there is a problem. Patience all around, and communication.

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So much confusion. I can't keep track.

All this is why both my marriages were completely low key. The bride, groom, JP, and a couple witnesses. Both delightful weddings. Even our divorces were simple and absent the rancor of many weddings I've seen.

[LaurieB]

Mottmott -- you are one lucky guy or gal.

Yes, the groom's mom and stepdad on the hook for their guests as well. I haven't had a discussion with his mom about her thoughts on this, although I know she had given them a cash gift (for the wedding) BEFORE she was made aware she would have to pay for her family/guests, so we'll see where that goes.

ON A BIG SIDE NOTE:

I don't want anyone to think I am whining, or looking for sympathy where none should be afforded.

My original intent with my post was to make sure that we weren't missing a trend, and so to look like idiots. Apparently this is not a trend, so I feel better.

Thanks to all, and I am enjoying your stories, and insights.

Laurie

[Mottmott]

...Yes, the groom's mom and stepdad on the hook for their guests as well.  I haven't had a discussion with his mom about her thoughts on this, although I know she had given them a cash gift (for the wedding) BEFORE she was made aware she would have to pay for her family/guests, so we'll see where that goes....

Laurie

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We all wish you and yours the best for the future.

OK, I can't help myself. I will ask what we all want to know. Who pays for the GROOM?

[LaurieB]

"OK, I can't help myself. I will ask what we all want to know. Who pays for the GROOM?"

MottMott, that just cracked me up. I don't know. Perhaps I should plan to slip him 50 bills and whisper out of the side of my mouth "Here ya go, kid, I was thinking of youse. Buy yourself somethin' pretty"

I'm still trying to figure out how we are to pay for my older stepson, who is a member of the wedding party. Will this become a case of "Let's just cut the baby in half?"

As a side note:

Please, someone, tell me this kind of small drama is normal for a family.

[annecros]

"OK, I can't help myself.    I will ask what we all want to know. Who pays for the GROOM?"

MottMott, that just cracked me up.  I don't know.  Perhaps I should plan to slip him 50 bills and whisper out of the side of my mouth "Here ya go, kid, I was thinking of youse.  Buy yourself somethin' pretty" 

I'm still trying to figure out how we are to pay for my older stepson, who is a member of the wedding party.  Will this become a case of "Let's just cut the baby in half?"

As a side note:

Please, someone, tell me this kind of small drama is normal for a family. 

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Oh absolutely normal. Doesn't make it anymore pleasant, but I think you are well within the range of normal here.

When is the wedding date, by the way? How long will all this be drug out? You do know the drama increases exponentially the closer to the date you get...

[Luckylies]

drug out?

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now that's a plan.

[LaurieB]

Heh, heh. If it's not going to be "drug" out, it'll be "whined" out.

The wedding is in a year, on --

WAIT FOR IT --

Sweetest Day.

I am not making this up.

Laurie

[Nina C.]

I've never heard of Sweetest day, so I just looked it up:

from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweetest_Day

Sweetest Day is an observance celebrated primarily in the Great Lakes region and parts of the Northeast United States on the third Saturday in October[1]. It is described by Retail Confectioners International, as "much more important for candymakers in some regions than in others (Detroit, Cleveland and Buffalo being the biggest Sweetest Day cities)" and an "occasion which offers all of us an opportunity to remember not only the sick, aged and orphaned, but also friends, relatives and associates whose helpfulness and kindness we have enjoyed."[2] Sweetest Day has also been referred to as a "concocted promotion"[3] created by the candy industry solely to increase sales of candy. Persistent claims have also been made that Sweetest Day was manufactured by the American Greetings Company or Hallmark Cards in order to boost sales.

http://www.theromantic.com/sweetestday.htm

[Pam R]

We've catered lots of weddings over the years - it's not an uncommon arrangement. At least here, there doesn't seem to be a standard payment plan for weddings these days. We see weddings that the bride and groom pay for, the bride's parents, both sets of parents split the wedding and yes, when the parents are asked to pay for their guests. That would be ASKED though, not told.

Hate to have the dissenting opinion, but it's not unheard of.

(Having said all of that, you seem to have come to a decision you're happy with - I hope you can enjoy the wedding!)

[sadie_siamesecat]

Actually, I agree with you Pam R. What I was trying to get across in my post was that the key to any wedding arrangement is open communication between all parties, especially when it comes to the touchy subject of $$$. Hopefully your son and daughter-in-law will have a wonderful wedding that you can all enjoy.

[Kris]

Here's another approach:  "We will contribute $__________ towards the wedding.  How you choose to use it is up to you."

Guaranteed not to make you popular, but it does set some boundaries.

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This is what my parents did. And my MIL. The rest came out of hubby's and my pockets.

[prasantrin]

We've catered lots of weddings over the years - it's not an uncommon arrangement.  At least here, there doesn't seem to be a standard payment plan for weddings these days.  We see weddings that the bride and groom pay for, the bride's parents, both sets of parents split the wedding and yes, when the parents are asked to pay for their guests.  That would be ASKED though, not told.

Hate to have the dissenting opinion, but it's not unheard of.

(Having said all of that, you seem to have come to a decision you're happy with - I hope you can enjoy the wedding!)

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Come to think about it, the one couple I mentioned who had both sets of parents pay for their own guests was from Winnipeg.

I think it should be noted that Winnipeg is also known for couples who try to get others (many of whom won't even be invited to the wedding) to pay for their weddings through selling tickets to that quaint tradition called a "social".

From wiki

There is a pecular use of "social" in some parts of the world. In the Canadian province of Manitoba, a "social" is a fund raising party (for a wedding, non-proffit organisation, charity, or some other worthy cause). It is also known as a Manitoba Social. Typically, they will include music (current popular music for the youth and "oldies" music older adults), dancing, food, raffles (and other fund raising games). When held in support of a wedding, often they are used as a way to shake down some details of the wedding (e.g., letting the bride try a hair style, practicing dancing, etc.)

It's also the place where people will actually print "Presentation Only" on the wedding invitations. For those not in the know, that means "We only want money as gifts, so don't give us anything else."

Lest anyone dis me for this, I am from Winnipeg and I do like it there.

LaurieB, however inappropriate your in-laws may be, just be thankful they are not resorting to "Presentation Only". (Do they do that in other parts of the world?)

[Swisskaese]

As I mentioned earlier in the thread. Wedding guests in Israel give money as a gift. The amount, unless the wedding couple is family or a very close friend, is the amount of what the reception costs per person. In other words, if David and I go to a wedding of a colleague, we write a check for approximately 50-100USD and place it in a wedding card. This is the wedding gift.

We don't have wedding registries here. Most couples use the money to pay for part of their honeymoon or items they need for their apartment. I don't see anything wrong with this. This doesn't mean you can't give them a gift. Some people prefer to buy them a gift in lieu of money, but this is certainly not the norm.

Frankly, I find the Southern US custom of showing off your gifts in your parent's dining room with the gift cards really loathesome.

Edited December 2, 2006 by Swisskaese (log)