Practicality of a roaster with domed lid?

[vkrn]

Given that roasting in the oven is supposed to cook by allowing dry heat to circulate, what would be the point or benefits of using a lid with a roasting pan? Would it serve the same role as wrapping a bird in aluminum foil, or would it change the cooking slightly? help! Trying to plan my strategy for this holiday season.

ALSO, what's the benefit of having a horizontal roasting rack verus a vertical roasting rack, besides the obvious spatial concerns (ie, would your bird be too tall)? I was thinking that the vertical would allow the heat to circulate better but am I overplaying it?

[tim]

VK,

You are exactly right. Roast that bird in the open. Most roasters don't come with a cover for good reason. That reason being that a covered (foil or pan cover) stews the bird, resulting in a lot less flavor.

a roasting rack should allow for plenty of air circulation around and under a bird. A vertical turkey would not fit in most ovens and the vertical position would result in higher temp. variations. You are better off with a lower sided roaster and a higher position with a horizontal turkey.

Tim

[boar_d_laze]

The pan you're describing is a "covered braiser." It can be used as a "roasting pan," without the cover. However, roasters actually have low sides, allowing good air circulation around the entire roast. The high sides of a braiser, are more problematic.

Without getting into all the intricacies of turkey prep (like brine/no brine, how to choose the bird, etc.), allow me to suggest that if you're going to cook your turkey indoors in your kitchen oven that you roast it in the standard "french" style. That is: roast it on a rack on a low sided pan; with three 1/4 revolutions and one 1/2 rotation so all sides (except the breast) are subject to equal amounts of heat; and give the breast a relatively short exposure "up" and to the maximum heat.

Handling the bird in this way provides several benefits: Even browning, a juicier breast, and a more precise awareness at the last revolution, of how much longer the bird has to go til it's done a point -- you can tell by the way the thighs sag, and how the breast feels to the touch.

Revolving a large bird requires some planning, you might even want to plan for help. You certainly won't be able to do it with tongs. I do the first two revolutions bare-handed, and the last wearing household latex gloves. However, I'm a large man with "asbestos" hands. I've seen it done by two women, one of whom poked the handles of large kitchen spoons into each end of the turkey and lifted it slightly off the rack, while the second turned the bird with a paper towel.

I cook our family turkey outdoors in my offset smoker. The aesthetics of smoked turkey aside (better by far!), it frees up an enormous amount of oven space particularly and kitchen space in general. It also keeps several men outside, and out of trouble for hours. If you have any legitimate method of doing it outside, give it serious thought.

Finally, you're right about planning. I recommend either purchasing a free range bird and brining it in salt and citrus; or purchasing a kosher turkey. Free range turkeys are expensive, with a lower proportion of breast. The meat is denser, with more taste. The use of salt in the koshering process yields a bird similar to one that has been brined, and is superior to the vast majority of "processed" turkeys.

Here's a brine that I've used successfully for all kinds of birds. You can use it for a bird that's going in an indoor oven, a smoker, or will be "beer canned" in a covered grill. I call it "All Citrus." (Note that the accompanying seasoning rub does not have any salt -- because the brining process has rendered the bird salty already.)

Brine:

Ingredients:

4 Qt Water

1 Bottle white wine – preferably Traminer, Gewurz Traminer, Riesling, or Liebfraumilch

1 Qt Lemonade, or limeade, or red grapefruit juice, or orange juice.

2 trays ice

1 C Table salt, or 1-1/2 C Morton Kosher salt, or 2 C Diamond Kosher salt

1 C Brown sugar, or preferably piloncillo or goor, or molasses

1 Grapefruit

2 Oranges

2 Lemons

6 Limes

2 Onions, roughly sliced.

1 Doz garlic cloves, smashed.

Technique:

Bring water, salt, sugar, onions and garlic to boil, reduce to simmer. Simmer for 10 minutes. Quarter all citrus, add to pot. Simmer 10 minutes. Remove from heat. Allow to steep and cool 15 minutes. Add cold lemonade, and ice cubes. Immerse turkey completely in brine. Brine in refrigerator at least 12, but no more than 36 hours.

(Note: This is a medium brine in terms of all three brine parameters: saline, sweet and acid.)

Prepping the bird:

Remove turkey from brine, dry as completely as possible, in and out. If you can allow the dried turkey to sit a few hours, uncovered in the refrigerator you will get a crisper skin in the end.

Rub:

Ingredients:

1/4 C Brown sugar, or piloncillo or goor, plus 2 TBS

1/4 C Paprika or mild chili powder (“California chili” is milder than “New Mexico chili”)

2 tbs Granulated garlic

2 tbs Granulated onion

2 tbs Black pepper

1 tsp White pepper (the white pepper adds a nice tickle to the back of the throat)

1 tsp fresh rosemary, chopped fine (or 1/2 tsp dried) .

1/2 tsp dried thyme

1/2 tsp dried sage

Slather: Extra virgin olive oil; 2 tbs butter.

Aromatics:

1/4 Grapefruit

1/2 Orange cut in two

1 Lemon quartered

2 Limes halved

2 sprigs rosemary

Technique:

Mix rub in spice mill or blender. Sprinkle cavity generously with rub. Stuff cavity loosely with aromatics. Truss turkey if you know how. If you don’t, fold the wings behind the turkey’s back and tie the legs together. Slather turkey with olive oil. Sprinkle generously with rub. Make sure you get rub in the “crotch” and “pits.” Using your fingers, knead 2 tbs of rub with 2 tbs butter. Still using your fingers slide the seasoned butter between the breast meat and skin and spread it as evenly as possible under the skin. Be cafreful not to tear the skin.

Rich

PS It seems important on this forum to add some sort of disclaimer -- or in this case claimer. The above recipes are mine. They were not copied from any source. I have used them before and have published them or similar variations on the net under the boar_d_laze name and under my actual name.

[vkrn]

wow. damn good advice. of course, being all itchy-fingered in the wee hours of the morning, i surfed and surfed and since i found a calphalon roaster w/ domed lid for not-too-horribly-much $$$, i grabbed it. now, I guess I gotta learn how to braise covered.

what's so frustrating for a relative beginner is the multiplicity of cookware shapes out there. like, i cannot for the life of me figure the difference...

like, what's the diff between allclad's cassoulet, brasier pan, paella pan, sauteuse pan...!???! they are all shaped relatively the same... and then regular sautee pans seem like they could take the place of all those shapes.

please don't laugh at me. would definitely appreciate all your advice. and will be using that recipe!!!

[JAZ]

what's so frustrating for a relative beginner is the multiplicity of cookware shapes out there.  like, i cannot for the life of me figure the difference...

like, what's the diff between allclad's cassoulet, brasier pan, paella pan, sauteuse pan...!???!  they are all shaped relatively the same...  and then regular sautee pans seem like they could take the place of all those shapes.

←

Check out the eGCI course on Stovetop Cookware (click here) for a good introduction to basic materials and shapes for cookware. It might not answer all your questions, but it should give you a lot of information.

[snowangel]

wow.  damn good advice.  of course, being all itchy-fingered in the wee hours of the morning, i surfed and surfed and since i found a calphalon roaster w/ domed lid for not-too-horribly-much $$$, i grabbed it.  now, I guess I gotta learn how to braise covered.

←

For some great advice, get a copy of All About Braising by Molly Stevens (you should be able to get it from your local library), and visit the Braising with Molly topic.

[boar_d_laze]

The principal differences in the shapes of the All-Clad pans you mentioned are in the side height, side slope, and height of the available lids. The actual performance differences can be relatively slight -- pans that look the same, and share the most important aspects of construction -- as within the All-Clad lines -- can be expected to act pretty much the same. Not that there aren't differences, but they are subtle.

Unless you do a lot of specialty cooking, you probably only need one pan of a given good diameter with a lowish side. I prever rounded, sloped sides on my 8s 10s and 12s because they aid in tossing -- but when the pan reaches a certain weight you aren't going to flip by toss, you're going to use a spatula. At that point, a straight side is beneficial. 12" is the largest Calphalon I can handle. I'm not sure if I could still handle a 12" All-Clad (they're heavy). Most people stop at 10". You have to know your own limits.

Rounded domes allow you to cook taller food. Theoretically they're better for convection, but as a practical matter do not perform any differently with a well constructed pan. The drawback to a big, high dome is that it's hard to store. I braise tall food in round "Dutch Oven" shaped pans. Their high sides make turning the food during the browning portion of the braise inconvenient. But c'est la vie. I have neither the room nor the money for pans for every purpose. If it were a really important part of my repertoire, I'd invest in a couple of cast iron ovals with domed lids, ala Le Creuset.

The best advice I can give on pans is to use a pan that fits the size and shape of your food comfortably.

Finally, while I admire the All-Clad pans a great deal, their paella pan is nothing like what you'd find in Spain. Paella is cooked uncovered in a shallow pan with slanted sides. Mild steel is preferred -- preferably as black and crusty as a wok in a Chinese restaurant. It's a true specialty pan. If you really like paella it's worth having one. Because they don't require a lid and are so shallow, they store easily.

Rich

[vkrn]

WOW folks--and thank you Rich for edifying me! I did not realize that eGCI had courses online--thanks for those links--am clicking through to them now....

[vkrn]

So managed to dump the Calphalon covered roaster, only to encouter the Nesco 4808-25-30 18-Quart Non-Stick Roaster Oven, at Amazon, where several reviewers said that they've gotten fantastic roasted turkeys, not dry whatsover, using what essentially appears to be a covered roaster! I don't understand the science behind it, unless these roasters allow for both effective dry heat circulation as well as keeping the moisture in by basting the bird via dripping condensation?

[alanamoana]

So managed to dump the Calphalon covered roaster, only to encouter the Nesco 4808-25-30 18-Quart Non-Stick Roaster Oven, at Amazon, where several reviewers said that they've gotten fantastic roasted turkeys, not dry whatsover, using what essentially appears to be a covered roaster!  I don't understand the science behind it, unless these roasters allow for both effective dry heat circulation as well as keeping the moisture in by basting the bird via dripping condensation?

←

yeah, but you can get a deliciously juicy bird just by brining and roasting in a disposable aluminum pan...it is more about technique than cookware. as someone stated above, unless you do a lot of specialty cooking, specialty cookware is all about gift registries...and how much money they can get people to spend. it wouldn't surprise me if contractors were involved so that they can sell more kitchen cabinetry during remodels!