New German Cuisine?

[robyn]

Other places I'm considering for a trip next year are Finland and Sweden - but Helsinki and Stockholm don't seem to have anything in the way of luxury hotels.  Perhaps that's because they're relatively small cities (even smaller than the city where I live).  I tend to like really big cities (probably because I don't live in one).  Places where I can poke around and explore.  Robyn

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A luxury hotel in Stockholm is The Grand Hotel. It is a beautiful hotel, but I would stay at Hotel Rival. I would recommend the Hotel Kamp or the Palace Hotel in Helsinki.

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Thanks for the information. And no reason I can't do trips to Germany - and Finland and Sweden too. Just depends on the order. Must say though I am spoiled after our trip to Japan. Tokyo is kind of a hard act to follow. Robyn

[legourmet]

Ok - let me back off a bit.  When we were in Hamburg - we went to - among other places - a very traditional restaurant and ate the most traditional meal on the menu.  A lady next to us who was perhaps 80 or so remarked that it was so nice to see "young people" eating traditional food.  That meal kind of felt like a lead sinker in my stomach for the next 3 days.

But I am willing to give it another try - as long as I can avoid the "lead sinker" feeling.  I realize that a lot of this traditional food (like that made by my grandmothers - who were both from nearby areas in Europe) was meant to be eaten by people who did a lot of physical work in cold weather - where you could simply burn it off.  But I tend not to travel in cold weather - or do a lot of physical work while traveling - so a bit lighter would work better for me.

Other than wanting to avoid feeling weighted down - or overdosing on salt - I am pretty much up for anything in terms of eating.

FWIW - other than the "lead sinker" meal - we really had a great time in Hamburg (despite the dreary late October weather).  Even though it was more than a decade ago - probably closer to two decades - I remember the harbor tour - the war monuments - the main art museum (forget the name - but remember the paintings) - the great service in the hotel (Intercontinental - they did amazing things in terms of putting in an internet connection for me) - my husband having a good time speaking Italian in a decent Italian restaurant  - and the outrageous sex show  .  Only sex show I've ever been to - and I can assure the ladies in the audience that sex shows in Hamburg are very non-sexist - there will be something for him - and something for you too  .  I realize that Hamburg probably isn't the best tourist city in Germany - so if I had a good time there - I can probably have a good time anywhere in Germany  Robyn

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I wouldn't say you've made a mistake by ordering the most traditional food in an old traditional Hamburgian restaurant, but each traditional restaurant there (like all over Germany) has it's own most traditional food. Because hard working habitues in those restaurants will order all time the same hearty dish, so "lead sinkers" are normally the top seller and therefore the most traditional dish. When you are here and you'll go into a "traditional Restaurant" think first about what type of food you like and what you dislike, than ask for traditionally made. I myself for instance don't like pork so I do not order pork dishes even when the utmost traditional food on the manual. In Hamburg and the surroundings are normally fish or lamb dishes the most traditional ones, because of the sea and the meadows flooded by tidal floods. But fish there (for instance "Finkenwerder Scholle") might also be very greasy because of using lard and greasy ham for frying.

It will be helpfull to know where you plan to go to for informations about traditional food there.

Going to Berlin and ordering the most traditional food in traditional restaurants you'll get a cooked whole cured pig knockle with mashed potatoes, sauerkraut and yello peas puree (Berliner Eisbein) or fried veal liver with mashed potatoes, apple slices and fried onions (Leber Berliner Art).

[legourmet]

And Germany seems like its food scene is kind of developing.  I think if I go now - I will probably be too early in terms of any big "food revolution"

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I think you are 10 years too late to see the food scene develop.

The exact start towards the German "Nouvelle cuisine" was the 2nd December 1971, when the Austrian Eckart Witzigmann became chef of the Tantris in Munich, the first Michelin three star rated restaurant in Germany. He started with a manual that was more like french cuisine because the products he wanted to cook with aren't available in Germany at that time. 1978 EW got G.W.Kastner to built up the "Rungis Express". "RE" delivers since then world wide products of high quality to most rated restaurants. Besids this company a lot of german farmers started to produce lokal products of superb quality. It's now approximately ten years ago that the use of high quality lokal products and health concious cooking was established. Witzigmann is the mentor of a new generation of decorated chefs in Germany like Harld Wohlfahrt, Heinz Winkler, Hans Haas, Johann Lafer, Thomas Martin, Armin Karrer, etc. All of them have written cookbooks which are the basics for most good restaurants. Today there are more than 200 star rated restaurants in Germany.

I can't remember the exact food I ate last trip at that fancy restaurant.  I tend to think from what the woman sitting next to us said that it was food that even Germans eat only at Christmas every 5 years  . 

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Don't know what that might be. The most common food here at Christmas is goose, duck or turkey.

Last time we were in Germany - we drove on the autobahn.  Even then - when we were a lot younger - it was frightening for us US people who are used to speed limits.  I'm not sure we could handle it now (unless they have rental cars with GPS systems that speak English!).  We had such terrific experiences with trains in Japan that if we go to Germany - we'd probably go to 2 or 3 cities that are connected by train.  So I would be open to suggestions.

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A lot parts of the Autobahnen are speed limited to 120 km/h (75 miles/h). GPS Systems in rental cars that speaks English shouldn't be a problem at Hertz, Avis etc.

There is no problem with public transportation in our country. You might go to the smallest town by train and/or bus.

edited because of a mistake

Edited October 19, 2006 by legourmet (log)

[glauer]

Legourmet:

as a German I wish you were right, but France has still signficantly more starred restaurants when compared to Germany. I did not have much time so I only found the numbers for the 2005 guide, but not that much has changed for 2006. It was : 402 *, 70 ** and 26***, so more than double over all and a even higher ratio at the ** and *** level.

Otherwise I agree that the big revolution is long past, though I very much hope we are up for another one soon.

[malacitana]

If so - where in the country would I be most likely to find these restaurants that are coming up with new twists on old ideas?  I'm not necessarily talking about fine dining - Michelin stars and the like - more casual dining is fine.  Robyn

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Munich has several interesting, casual restaurants that offer what you're looking for, i.e. new twists on traditional german and/or austrian recipes. And it is a pretty town too (although, perhaps, Berlin is the only city in Germany which meets your requirement of a truly big city). I would recommend the following

Terrine

Blauer Bock

Landersdorfer und Innerhofer

Zauberberg

Broeding

Retters

Schubeck

Except the last one, they are not Michelin-starred. Another very interesting restaurant is to be found in Nuremberg, approximately one hour by train from Munich: Restaurant Essigbrätlein, Weinmarkt 3, 90403 Nürnberg, phone: +49911225131. It is really tiny, I guess a maximum of 20 diners, so you'll definitely need a reservation. The food is fantastic.

malacitana

[legourmet]

Legourmet:

as a German I wish you were right, but France has still signficantly more starred restaurants when compared to Germany. I did not have much time so I only found the numbers for the 2005 guide, but not that much has changed for 2006. It was : 402 *, 70 ** and 26***, so more than double over all and a even higher ratio at the ** and *** level.

Otherwise I agree that the big revolution is long past, though I very much hope we are up for another one soon.

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You are right. I didn't read the book correct where something was written about German star rated restaurants bear comparison with French star rated restaurants. It says there are more than double of star rated restaurants in Germany as compared with Paris.

[robyn]

Ok - let me back off a bit.  When we were in Hamburg - we went to - among other places - a very traditional restaurant and ate the most traditional meal on the menu.  A lady next to us who was perhaps 80 or so remarked that it was so nice to see "young people" eating traditional food.  That meal kind of felt like a lead sinker in my stomach for the next 3 days.

But I am willing to give it another try - as long as I can avoid the "lead sinker" feeling.  I realize that a lot of this traditional food (like that made by my grandmothers - who were both from nearby areas in Europe) was meant to be eaten by people who did a lot of physical work in cold weather - where you could simply burn it off.  But I tend not to travel in cold weather - or do a lot of physical work while traveling - so a bit lighter would work better for me.

Other than wanting to avoid feeling weighted down - or overdosing on salt - I am pretty much up for anything in terms of eating.

FWIW - other than the "lead sinker" meal - we really had a great time in Hamburg (despite the dreary late October weather).  Even though it was more than a decade ago - probably closer to two decades - I remember the harbor tour - the war monuments - the main art museum (forget the name - but remember the paintings) - the great service in the hotel (Intercontinental - they did amazing things in terms of putting in an internet connection for me) - my husband having a good time speaking Italian in a decent Italian restaurant  - and the outrageous sex show  .  Only sex show I've ever been to - and I can assure the ladies in the audience that sex shows in Hamburg are very non-sexist - there will be something for him - and something for you too  .  I realize that Hamburg probably isn't the best tourist city in Germany - so if I had a good time there - I can probably have a good time anywhere in Germany  Robyn

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I wouldn't say you've made a mistake by ordering the most traditional food in an old traditional Hamburgian restaurant, but each traditional restaurant there (like all over Germany) has it's own most traditional food. Because hard working habitues in those restaurants will order all time the same hearty dish, so "lead sinkers" are normally the top seller and therefore the most traditional dish. When you are here and you'll go into a "traditional Restaurant" think first about what type of food you like and what you dislike, than ask for traditionally made. I myself for instance don't like pork so I do not order pork dishes even when the utmost traditional food on the manual. In Hamburg and the surroundings are normally fish or lamb dishes the most traditional ones, because of the sea and the meadows flooded by tidal floods. But fish there (for instance "Finkenwerder Scholle") might also be very greasy because of using lard and greasy ham for frying.

It will be helpfull to know where you plan to go to for informations about traditional food there.

Going to Berlin and ordering the most traditional food in traditional restaurants you'll get a cooked whole cured pig knockle with mashed potatoes, sauerkraut and yello peas puree (Berliner Eisbein) or fried veal liver with mashed potatoes, apple slices and fried onions (Leber Berliner Art).

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Don't have any definite plans yet - that's why I'm asking questions here .

If I asked you to plan a trip of 3 larger cities in Germany that would show different aspects/views of the country - which 3 would you pick? I really want to see Berlin - and have already been to Hamburg. Are there any smaller cities or large towns that you would recommend in addition to the larger cities. I realize that Germany is a large country - and we can only see a small part of it in perhaps 2 weeks. Note that I love art - and my husband loves beer .

And it would probably be best for us not to drive - to take trains instead. Recently - we have found it a much more pleasant way to travel than driving (when we drive - my husband is the driver - and I am the navigator - and it is very tiring trying to navigate in a country where the language on the road isn't your native language). Robyn

[Behemoth]

If I asked you to plan a trip of 3 larger cities in Germany that would show different aspects/views of the country - which 3 would you pick?  I really want to see Berlin - and have already been to Hamburg.  Are there any smaller cities or large towns that you would recommend in addition to the larger cities.  I realize that Germany is a large country - and we can only see a small part of it in perhaps 2 weeks.  Note that I love art - and my husband loves beer  .

A German city with great art museums and excellent beer. Hmmm...

Nope, sorry. Nothing comes to mind.

[legourmet]

If I asked you to plan a trip of 3 larger cities in Germany that would show different aspects/views of the country - which 3 would you pick?  I really want to see Berlin - and have already been to Hamburg.  Are there any smaller cities or large towns that you would recommend in addition to the larger cities.  I realize that Germany is a large country - and we can only see a small part of it in perhaps 2 weeks.  Note that I love art - and my husband loves beer  .

A German city with great art museums and excellent beer. Hmmm...

Nope, sorry. Nothing comes to mind.

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I love that one and I'm very certain, you'll soon get the certificate of naturalization.

[Swisskaese]

My suggestions still stand. You can go to Berlin and also visit one or more of the 9 Unesco World Heritage Sites in Niedersachsen:

Goettingen

Goslar

Celle

Lueneburg

Braunschweig

Hannover

Wolfenbuettel

Hildesheim

Hameln (as in the Pied Piper!)

Or go to three big cities Berlin, Leipzig and Dresden

As all of us have explained, they every place is accessible by train, plane and automobile. I would suggest searching on the net and checking the train schedule on the Deutsche Bahn website. I have provided links to the cities I mentioned above, with the exception of Berlin, Liepzig and Dresden.

Edited October 20, 2006 by Swisskaese (log)

[ludja]

If I asked you to plan a trip of 3 larger cities in Germany that would show different aspects/views of the country - which 3 would you pick?  I really want to see Berlin - and have already been to Hamburg.  Are there any smaller cities or large towns that you would recommend in addition to the larger cities.  I realize that Germany is a large country - and we can only see a small part of it in perhaps 2 weeks.  Note that I love art - and my husband loves beer  .

A German city with great art museums and excellent beer. Hmmm...

Nope, sorry. Nothing comes to mind.

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Munich!

[Stephen W]

If I asked you to plan a trip of 3 larger cities in Germany that would show different aspects/views of the country - which 3 would you pick? 

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Berlin (city still in transition and redefining itself as the capital, great museums including the Bode which I believe has recently reopened).

Cologne (great beer, has always felt very relaxed / tolerant).

Nuernberg (Nuremberg - I found it to be a beautiful city, well restored).

As far as travelling goes, the trains are great, but look at flights as well. Air Berlin, Germanwings and Lufthansa among others do good domestic flights in Germany and if you book early they are cheap as well (and faster than the trains for some of the longer distances).

[robyn]

Thanks for all this information. I'm looking at airline flights - trains - hotels - and maps. Right now - I am kind of thinking of Berlin/Prague/Munich - then Frankfurt or Cologne. The last 2 are cities where I can catch a flight home. I've seen a reference to Cologne here - can anyone compare it with Frankfurt? Robyn

[Swisskaese]

If you go to Koeln, you have to go to Dieter Mueller's Gourmet Restaurant at the Schlosshotel Lerbach in Bergish Gladbach. It is 16km from Koeln and I believe it is a Michelin 2-Star restaurant. Way out of my league, but I have only heard good things about this restaurant.

And the Michelin 3-Star, Gourmet Restaurant Vendome at the Grand Hotel Schlossbensberg.

Or, more in my price range is Hotel Zur Poste in Odenthal.

[Cronenberg]

I have been to both, Restaurant Dieter Müller in Schlosshotel Lerbach and Restaurant Vendome in Schlosshotel Bensberg. I recommend them both, they are excellent. Both Grand Hotels belong to the same owner (Althoff), they are very close geographically to each other and the two chefs are competing. Althoff understands that these prestigious restaurtants attract people into his hotels so he is apparently funding them very well and his chefs can concentrate on cooking and do not have to worry too much about being profitable and making money in the restaurant, i.e. diners get a good deal. That is not to say that it is cheap, tasting menus are around 100 to 140 Euros.

Dieter Müller is much older (in his 50s), he's been on top for decades now, whereas Vendome-chef Joachim Wissler is young and ambitious. He got his third Michelin star only two or three years ago.

Both have three Michelin stars, Gault Millau, the other influential guide in Germany, has 19.5 of 20 points for Müller and 19 out of 20 for Wissler.

It's difficult to pin down the difference in cuisine, Wissler maybe being slightly more innovative. Müller definitely has the nicer restaurant in a conservatory-like annex to Schlosshotel Lerbach, very beautiful. Lerbach is the smaller, more intimate Hotel, Bensberg is huge.

With Müller and Wissler the Cologne area has more high-end-dining than Frankfurt. If I were you, I'd look into Munich as well.

[robyn]

As you can imagine - this all sounds like "Greek" to me right now - since I have no concept of the country and its geography. Picked up my first travel guide today. Luckily - it has a map! The new Michelin Green Guide for Germany will be out in about 5 weeks - and I will pick up a copy when it's released.

I haven't been to continental Europe for a very long time (many more recent trips to the UK). But I used to like using the Michelin Red Guides when I traveled there - not even so much for starred restaurants (which everyone used to know about - and which you can now read about on line) as for the comprehensive listings of all kinds of restaurants. So if you leave a museum at noon - and want to find a decent but not big deal restaurant in the neighborhood - you have some help. Have any of you used the Red Guide to Germany - and do you find it worthwhile?

Also - have any of you used the Time Out Guides to cities in Germany? I found the Tokyo guide useful because of its excellent maps - but thought the restaurant information was kind of dated.

Finally - I have kind of a delicate question. For years - as a Jew - I always felt ill at ease traveling in certain parts of continental Europe - and avoided some because of family history. Even places which seemed ok - like Norway - wound up not seeming ok - well "not ok" isn't the correct phrase - "out of the mainstream" is more like it - because - although I think the Norwegians were heroic in their resistance - they really didn't have much to do with the Holocaust (there simply weren't many Jews in Norway - or people for that matter - it's a really small country!). Then I started to read some new things - about the Jewish Museum in Berlin - the first ordained rabbis in Germany (in ages) - stuff like that. And I figured it was time for me to a take a look.

Anyway - my question is - I have read that there is now such a thing as Holocaust tourism by Jews visiting certain parts of continental Europe. Frankly - the idea doesn't sit well with me. Don't think I can handle it. But I wonder if anyone here has done anything like that - and whether it's something worth doing - even though it is undoubtedly a very sad trip into a very sad part of history. Note that this would be kind of "generic" travel for me. Looking at things in general. Wouldn't have anything to do with my family. Half came from Poland - half from Russia (think Fiddler on the Roof ). None of my family is left in those places now - so I am not interested in tracing my particular "roots". It's just that if I'm in this part of the world - I don't want to miss things that I should see - even if they're personally painful. I've seen enough of continental Europe to know that WWI and WWII were terrible for millions of people - but have avoided confronting personal pain for a very long time. Since this question really isn't food-related - it's probably best to PM me with any responses. Robyn

[robyn]

I have been to both, Restaurant Dieter Müller in Schlosshotel Lerbach and Restaurant Vendome in Schlosshotel Bensberg. I recommend them both, they are excellent. Both Grand Hotels belong to the same owner (Althoff), they are very close geographically to each other and the two chefs are competing. Althoff understands that these prestigious restaurtants attract people into his hotels so he is apparently funding them very well and his chefs can concentrate on cooking and do not have to worry too much about being profitable and making money in the restaurant, i.e. diners get a good deal. That is not to say that it is cheap, tasting menus are around 100 to 140 Euros.

Dieter Müller is much older (in his 50s), he's been on top for decades now, whereas Vendome-chef Joachim Wissler is young and ambitious. He got his third Michelin star only two or three years ago.

Both have three Michelin stars, Gault Millau, the other influential guide in Germany, has 19.5 of 20 points for Müller and 19 out of 20 for Wissler.

It's difficult to pin down the difference in cuisine, Wissler maybe being slightly more innovative. Müller definitely has the nicer restaurant in a conservatory-like annex to Schlosshotel Lerbach, very beautiful. Lerbach is the smaller, more intimate Hotel, Bensberg is huge.

With Müller and Wissler the Cologne area has more high-end-dining than Frankfurt. If I were you, I'd look into Munich as well.

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Are you familiar with the hotels? Which is nicer? Took a look at these websites - and it might be fun to stay at one of the hotels - eat at both restaurants over perhaps a 3-4 day period - go to Cologne and perhaps some areas outside the city for a little sightseeing - and then catch a flight home out of the Cologne airport (both places seem pretty close to the airport). Does this sound like a reasonable plan?

Only fly in the ointment is I think we will need a car for this - and my husband has bad memories of his last driving in Germany (he wasn't used to the speed limits on the autobahn). But if I rent him a car with a GPS - and say please in a nice way - I think I can convince him . Robyn

[Stephen W]

Are you familiar with the hotels?  Which is nicer?  Took a look at these websites - and it might be fun to stay at one of the hotels - eat at both restaurants over perhaps a 3-4 day period - go to Cologne and perhaps some areas outside the city for a little sightseeing - and then catch a flight home out of the Cologne airport (both places seem pretty close to the airport).  Does this sound like a reasonable plan?

Only fly in the ointment is I think we will need a car for this - and my husband has bad memories of his last driving in Germany (he wasn't used to the speed limits on the autobahn).  But if I rent him a car with a GPS - and say please in a nice way - I think I can convince him  .  Robyn

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Both are excellent - I had the pleasure of staying at Schlosshotel Lerbach in August and it was fantastic. Which you choose really depends on what you are looking for.

Grandhotel Schloss Bensberg is on the top of the hill in Bensberg, so is in town and within walking distance (5 minutes up or down hill depending on whether you are going to / from hotel) of the tram/light rail stop of Bensberg. This will take you into Cologne quickly and easily (and cheaply).

Schlosshotel Lerbach is more of a country-house / hunting lodge style, set in a park. You would need to use a taxi to get to either Bensberg tram station or Bergisch Gladbach rail station (both about 5/10 minutes by taxi and around €10).

Of the two I would recommend Bensberg if you are looking to visit Cologne several times during your stay and Lerbach if you are looking for somewhere to chill out - or better still a couple of days at both to get the best of both worlds!

I would also suggest looking at their "Arrangements" or packages as these offer some good deals, especially if you take advantage of the fact that most will allow you to take an extra night at a much reduced cost. You can also get a better room at a reduced rate as part of the package - if you do this check with the hotel as I believe that at Lerbach (and probably Bensberg) they include use of their chauffeur driven car in the rate for those in a suite.

Meal-wise, I would strongly recommend taking lunch at Restaurant Dieter Müller and choosing the "Amuse Bouche" menu (19 small dishes served in 5 courses but only available at lunch), and perhaps dinner at Vendome (although not on the same day for obvious reasons ).

[Cronenberg]

This is just to say ...

I could not agree more with Stephen W.

[robyn]

Took a look at the Althoff web site - and these both look like nice hotels with excellent restaurants. There is in fact a special 2 night package where you can stay at one hotel - and eat dinner at both restaurants (with a limo ride from the hotel where you're staying to the other). And you can extend the stay to 3 nights - which would be a huge plus for me since there's no way I can do 2 3 star meals on consecutive nights (too much food and drink).

The locations turn out to be somewhat irrelevant - since it seems like that 5 minute walk from the train station to the Bensberg is hilly. My husband has a bad knee - and hills - both up and down - really kill him. The cab to and from the Lerbach might be easier for him on day trips to Cologne proper. Looks like both hotels are equally convenient to the Cologne airport - which we would be flying into - or out of. My husband's knee is one reason I'm rethinking Prague - I don't think he can handle the combination of hills and cobblestones.

So right now - I am starting to outline a 2 week trip covering Berlin, Munich and Cologne. Probably early next September (I really want to avoid Oktoberfest in Munich - I don't like crowds - and that starts on September 22). Late spring might work too. Is there any reason to prefer late spring to early fall (or vice versa) in these parts of Germany? Robyn

[Behemoth]

Is there any reason to prefer late spring to early fall (or vice versa) in these parts of Germany?  Robyn

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Late spring is asparagus season, but late fall is better weather. This is a very tough choice.

[Swisskaese]

Yes and Niedersachsen is one of the aspargus regions of Germany. I adore Spargelzeit.

However, September is Winzerfest (Wine Festivals) season. I went to a Winzerfest in the Odenwald last month and had a very nice time.

[robyn]

Is there any reason to prefer late spring to early fall (or vice versa) in these parts of Germany?  Robyn

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Late spring is asparagus season, but late fall is better weather. This is a very tough choice.

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Spring peas too? And funny little ferns? And spring lamb? That would make it *really* tough. I know fall is game season. And that's good too. But I really love the things that are around in the spring - including spring flowers. About when does the weather kind of shape up? How about mid-May or so?

Unless the weather is really nasty - I'm inclined to go in the spring - because I got very nervous about hurricane season in 2005. Japan was easy - the spring (because I wasn't going to leave my home in hurricane season to go to another country where it was typhoon season!). Robyn

[robyn]

The question was answered last night when I got 2 reward businessfirst tickets departing on May 26. So late spring it is. Luckily - I found out in retrospect that we are arriving the day after a big national soccer final in Berlin (otherwise we would have had plane tickets - but no hotel room). So late spring food it is.

Any restaurants in Berlin - Munich or Cologne that need reservations this far in advance - or can I wait until sometime in 2007 to start thinking about restaurants? I've emailed the hotel in Bensberg - and will see what offerings they'll have when we'll be there. Robyn

[glauer]

no restaurant in germany needs 7 months of advance reservation.....but I also dont think they have policies like taking them only a month or two before.

another great place in cologne is Le Moissonier (one star plus in michelin). they recreated an old bistro and serve very unique food. complex and quirky compositions, very satisfying and fun. and a great wine selection with an emphasis on small, unknown and surprising regions and wineries.... exciting.