Help Me!

[phlox]

I'm that person at the restaurant that asks the waiter to help me pick something to drink with dinner. When confronted with shelves and shelves of wine at the liquor store, or a wine list the size of a phone book at a restaurant, I just freeze up.

I've had enough wine that I know what I like - most whites taste too sweet or just too bland to me - but beyond that I am totally lost.

Is there some kind of list that every wine neophyte should go through and try? Are there Cliff's Notes? When I read a magazine like Food and Wine, I inevitably end up disappointed, because although they have lots of reasonably priced recommendations, I am never able to actually find them at the store.

I don't want to bring some freaking Shiraz that I picked out because the label was kind of cool-looking to every party I attend for the rest of my adult life.

Edited September 21, 2006 by phlox (log)

[jelainemiller]

My opinion?

1. Focus more on variety (chardonnay, syray/shiraz, etc.) rather than specific bottles. Decide on one variety a week and that week try as many different iterations as you can. For example if you chose syrah you could pick up a California syrah, a Cote du Rhone or an Australian shiraz.

2. Taste, taste, taste and taste some more. Go to wine tastings. You might find some in your area at www.localwineevents.com. Events will give you the opportunity to taste a much larger range of different wines than you might be able to purchase on your own. It's a great way to fine-tune your likes and dislikes.

3. Read about wine. I like the WSJ guide to wine as a beginner book, but there are a million of them out there.

Most of all: Enjoy!

[phlox]

1. Focus more on variety (chardonnay, syray/shiraz, etc.) rather than specific bottles. Decide on one variety a week and that week try as many different iterations as you can. For example if you chose syrah you could pick up a California syrah, a Cote du Rhone or an Australian shiraz.

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What a great idea! I will definitely start doing this.

[JohnL]

I'm that person at the restaurant that asks the waiter to help me pick something to drink with dinner.  When confronted with shelves and shelves of wine at the liquor store, or a wine list the size of a phone book at a restaurant, I just freeze up. 

I've had enough wine that I know what I like - most whites taste too sweet or just too bland to me - but beyond that I am totally lost.

Is there some kind of list that every wine neophyte should go through and try?  Are there Cliff's Notes?  When I read a magazine like Food and Wine, I inevitably end up disappointed, because although they have lots of reasonably priced recommendations, I am never able to actually find them at the store. 

I don't want to bring some freaking Shiraz that I picked out because the label was kind of cool-looking to every party I attend for the rest of my adult life.

←

I could have written your post years ago.

I was just as flummoxed by wine as you are.

After stumbling along for many years--I got a handle on things to the point that I have enough confidence to at least answer your request for help.

After a long time as a collector (for drinking purposes) I got some formal education in wine and now work in the retail end of the business.

I offer this because I have looked at wine from different perspectives.

The reason that you are frustrated (as I was) in just trying to follow someone else's recommendations (like those in, say, Food and Wine) you are flying blind. You need some basic knowledge/assistance not a seeing eye dog.

I have been critical of the wine trade in general because I believe a major problem with wine at the retail level is any consumer product where one asks for some basic help and is told "you need to read a book" is in trouble!

Having said this--I am going to suggest a book.

But first you need a friend in the business!

A good wine shop with good sales persons can be incredibly helpful to you. The problem is these are too few and far between. You should try to find a local wine shop and go there on a slow day when a sales person can spend a few minutes with you. If you see a wine described somewhere (say Food and Wine) that sounds appealing to you, cut the article out and bring it with you. Show it to the salesperson and ask if they have the wine--if not--ask them for a similar wine in style and price.

If they do have the wine ask them to tell you more about it and ask about other similar wines they have. The point is engage them--establish a relationship.

A good sales person (regardless of what they are selling) will be interested in you and what you like. They should ask you questions and be interested in getting to know what you might like.

If you run into one who is more intent on showing off their extensive knowledge asks little or nothing about your likes and dislikes and then thrusts a bottle at you with "you will like this."

--well, try another shop.

Also very helpful are wine shops that hold free tastings--go--ask questions, have fun.

Anyway--on to the book.

The problem here IMOP is there are hundreds of books by hundreds of authors. It seems that there are as many books as there are wines.

Understand that wine today is incredibly complicated simply because there are more different wines from different grapes and myriad countries available on our shelves than ever before.

No one will ever know everything there is to know about every wine made. (the wine world could use a lot more humility).

Traditionally, most books approach wine from a geographic standpoint (they still do for the most part). This was fine when what was available were wines from a few countries and a handful of different grapes. "ok, let's visit Bordeaux..."

Today this academic approach is much too demanding for the average consumer to grasp. There are far too many different wines.

(later on, if you catch the bug then these books will be valuable).

Right now, you need to get some basic and practical knowledge.

(understanding terroir and clonal selections can come later)

Thankfully, there are some authors who are taking a different approach.

Two of these are Mary Ewing Mulligan and her husband Ed McCarthy. They are wine educators who teach wine professionals as well as amateurs. They wrote Wine for Dummies (a good book).

They also have written the book I am recommending to you: "Wine Style--using your senses to explore and enjoy wine"

The book is easy to read and enjoyable --written in a breezy style--and not too long.

It approaches wine education from standpoint of the different styles of wines.

From the inside cover flap:

"Have you ever felt uneasy or overwhelmed when buying or ordering wine? Do you long for a different more personal way to choose and drink wine? If the answer to either question is yes then this is the book for you. It will help you discover wines you like and make informed choices by introducing you to wine styles."

It is a wonderful book.

Most of all you should always be having fun. Once you establish a relationship with you local wine shop and attend a few free tastings, engage the staff and other customers, you will see that a lot of people are in the same boat. You will also see that wine can be a lot of fun--food, nice people, good conversation.

Learn as much as you want to learn--learn whatever knowledge helps you have more fun. you don't have to know too much to start the process and if you ever find yourself not having fun--just step back. The key is you will know exactly how far you want to go--from just feeling confident enough to buy a bottle that will complement your lamb chops or enlivening a dinner party to who knows--maybe you will quit your job and work in the wine business like me!

Just have fun!

[Busboy]

One thing about wine: once you move from ignorance to a state of reasonable knowledge and -- importantly -- trusting your own tastes and preferences, it gets a lot easier. I wish I had the time and money to get to the level of comparing, for example, Bordeaux from St. Julien against those from Puillac in a given vintage, but just getting to the point where you recognize the names and grape varieties allows you to carry on intelligent conversations with wine salesmen, sommeliers and the like. Don't despair if you don't become a master sommelier.

In addition to the other good advice here, I'd recommend plonking down money for a good, general "encyclopedia" of wine -- maybe one of those coffee table kinds with the glossy photos, and consulting that whenever you have the leisure and inclination to open a decent bottle.

You pour a glass of Chateu-neuf-de-Pape, take a sip and, as the wine sits in your mouth look up the region, the grape variety, maybe even the producer and vineyard (those exhaustive Robert Parker Jr. buying guides are useful for this, too, though I often can't afford the wines he reviews). It's not detailed information, but it gives your brain a little to hang onto, so the next time someone talks to you about it, you're listening to what they say, rather than asking yourself "what does the Rhone have to do with this and what the heck is grenache?'

[Brad Ballinger]

phlox,

I don't want you to bring Shiraz with funny names or labels to parties for the rest of your life, either. And don't ever bring one to my house.

First, no reason to feel shame at asking for help in the restaurant. That's what the staff is there for. If it's a good restaurant, the staff will have been trained about the wines, and will have tasted each one. If you are buying wine by the glass and not by the bottle, most places will usually provide you with a taste before you commit to an entire glass. Similarly, in the better wine shops, the staff will have tasted the wines and can make recommendations.

Of course, any recommendation you receive will depend on how well you can communicate what you like and what you don't like. That's where a good reference book and tasting a number of wines can help you. Regarding tasting, in addition to jelaniemiller's recommendation to "taste, taste, taste," I would add bringing someone along with you who either knows something about wine or who is as interested in it as you are. That way you have someone at the ready with whom to have a conversation about what you are tasting and why you either like or don't like it.

Write down the names of wines you've had that you like and why you like them. Even if a wine shop doesn't carry the exact wine, they may carry similar ones.

I don't know where you live, but if you live in an area with a good wine shop, they may put on classes. Attend one or two. The money you spend will be nothing compared to how much you'll spend on wines you otherwise wouldn't like.

Regarding your specific comments. . .

Most white wines are not sweet. However, many are bland -- especially the ubiquitous institutionalized pinot grigio. German riesling wines tend to have some residual sugar, but they also usually have a high amount of acidity that doesn't make them seem cloying. Of course, there are always exceptions. You can ask for a white wine with a higher acid level but still a good presence of fruit for starters.

It's okay to consider the recommendations of publications and even the people in this forum, but eventually you will learn to trust your own palate over any other. At best, you'll find a publication whose tasting panel's palates somewhat jive with your own.

By all means, feel free to pop in here for any question you might have.

[phlox]

My parents really like Rieslings and that's what we had in our house most often. This must be why I associate white wine with sweet and a little bland.

Thanks for the wonderful suggestions! I love to read about food, so I will definitely pick up that book, JohnL.

I am also the opposite of shy and love to talk to anyone and everyone, so getting into the habit of talking to the employees at wine shops more shouldn't be a problem. I work at a gourmet chocolate store and I love it when customers ask me questions - it makes my shifts less boring.

One of my favorite things to do, both because it's fun and because it's fairly cheap and I am poor, is to go to a nice restaurant and sit a the bar and sip an adult beverage and have an appetizer or some soup and chat with the bartender. I live in Pittsburgh, but we do have some good restaurants, so I will start picking the staffs' brains a bit more. I don't know of any really good wine shops around here, though, so if anyone here knows the Pittsburgh area and has suggestions, please PM me!

[JohnL]

One thing about wine: once you move from ignorance to a state of reasonable knowledge and  -- importantly -- trusting your own tastes and preferences, it gets a lot easier.  I wish I had the time and money to get to the level of comparing, for example, Bordeaux from St. Julien against those from Puillac in a given vintage, but just getting to the point where you recognize the names and grape varieties allows you to carry on intelligent conversations with wine salesmen, sommeliers and the like.  Don't despair if you don't become a master sommelier.

In addition to the other good advice here, I'd recommend plonking down money for a good, general "encyclopedia" of wine  -- maybe one of those coffee table kinds with the  glossy photos, and consulting that whenever you have the leisure and inclination to open a decent bottle.

You pour a glass of Chateu-neuf-de-Pape,  take a sip and, as the wine sits in your mouth look up the region, the grape variety, maybe even the producer and vineyard (those exhaustive Robert Parker Jr.  buying guides are useful for this, too, though I often can't afford the wines he reviews).  It's not detailed information, but it gives your brain a little to hang onto, so the next time someone talks to you about it, you're listening to what they say, rather than asking yourself "what does the Rhone have to do with this and what the heck is grenache?'

←

I just had to reply to your post!!

Funny--but what you describe is exactly how I got on the right track with wine enjoyment.

Around 1983 my interest in wine (and food) was just getting sparked.

I tried the Hugh Johnson pocket guide (ok but not very satisfying at this point) but was basically adrift.

Then in the Chicago O' Hare airport bookshop I came upon Parker's first buying guide. (Benjamin Books--I still have it with the bookmark--if my wife hasn't thrown it out).

It was a revelation.

I firmly believe that Parker's success has more to do with timing than anything else. His approach was just the right one at a time when millions like me were on the threshold of the eighties (economic booms) and wine making was just beginning to benefit from not only the increasing market but advances in vini and viti--culture. We were ready and the wine makers were ready and there was Parker.

It was the combination of notes and scores that we could relate to and, often overlooked, the knowledgeable chapters on all the wine producing regions and grape varietals. It was an educative and practical buying guide all in one.

I moved to the encyclopedias (I like the Oxford best) and the coffee table books and....

Today, though, I still recommend Parker's books highly (among many others) but my advice is to start with the "Wine Styles" book.

What every consumer (at every level) wants to know is what is in the bottle in terms of the wine's flavor profile. With this very basic piece of information one can make purchase decisions.

The book starts there and brings in other areas like varietal and place of origin (country) and wine maker so all the bases are covered. But it is the focus on a wine's flavors and attributes that, to me, go to the heart of the matter.

For example, a customer need only know there are four basic styles of white wine, if they communicate which one, a salesperson can provide an example. If the customer finds they like chardonnay

then they can specify a style and a varietal and get one they are more likely to enjoy.

They can hone it down further to a place or a grower/maker.

Same for reds, rose's, sparklers and desert wines.

That is the beauty of this approach--one can learn as much as one is comfortable with.

It is all about communicating what one is looking for at increasingly specific levels.

The drawbacks to the other more traditional approaches is today Bordeaux, can mean different styles of wines not just left or right bank even talking about St Julien or Pauillac is not as easy--there are differing styles within those communes.

even learning varietals is daunting--there are fourteen allowed in that Chateaneuf du Pape you note.

Where many consumers are intimidated is they feel they have to deal with a country a grape type, a brand or grower and let's not forget those pesky vintage numbers.

This is what is most intimidating about wine.

It is not by chance that wines like Yellowtail are so popular--simple--one easy to remember name.

But if a customer comes in and says they like Yellowtail (or that style of red) I can show them at least a half dozen wines of better quality in that style from around the world that may open their wine appreciation horizon up a bit.

Because of this diversity--most consumers are best served by expressing an interest in a type of wine--let's say a fresh un oaked white wine.

Ask for that and I can guide them to any number of wines from different varietals and countries.

that is basically all they need to know to get a wine in a shop or restaurant they have a good chance of liking.

They can increase the odds as they learn more. (should they choose to). But that is all I need to be able to help them find a wine they will probably enjoy.

The book starts there and goes down to recommending specific producers etc who make the basic styles.

Anyway--this is way too rambling--even for me.

Just that you mention of the Parker guides sparked some pleasant memories of simpler times.

by the way--it is funny how most advice about wine includes the plaint--"Have Fun!"

probably because the business/trade has made it so easy to fall into a morass of pretension.

I often wish those who insist on snarkily noting that "you know "sancerre is really Sauvignon blanc..." or "that so and so is making some killer juice" would lighten up a bit!

also

the constant reminder to "develop or trust your own palate"

enough already--I am always suspicious when folks state the obvious (yes--I do it too).

The presumption is somehow people will drink something they don't like for whatever reasons. More snobbery!

(though it is used so often that there is little malicious intent behind it--kinda like: have a nice day.)

I often remind anyone I come across that "you know you can take that nail out of your head if you want to.."

(from ramble to rant)

cheers!!!

Edited September 21, 2006 by JohnL (log)

[Brad Ballinger]

Most white wines are not sweet.  However, many are bland -- especially the ubiquitous institutionalized pinot grigio.  German riesling wines tend to have some residual sugar, but they also usually have a high amount of acidity that doesn't make them seem cloying.  Of course, there are always exceptions.

←

My parents really like Rieslings and that's what we had in our house most often.  This must be why I associate white wine with sweet and a little bland.

←

Many of the Riesling wines on the market today are not your parents' Riesling.

[phlox]

Most white wines are not sweet.  However, many are bland -- especially the ubiquitous institutionalized pinot grigio.  German riesling wines tend to have some residual sugar, but they also usually have a high amount of acidity that doesn't make them seem cloying.  Of course, there are always exceptions.

←

My parents really like Rieslings and that's what we had in our house most often.  This must be why I associate white wine with sweet and a little bland.

←

Many of the Riesling wines on the market today are not your parents' Riesling.

←

That's good to know! My mom's taste runs just a rung or two above wine coolers, so who the hell knows what she's been buying.

[Mano]

  I don't know of any really good wine shops around here, though, so if anyone here knows the Pittsburgh area and has suggestions, please PM me!

←

Living in PA means you must go to a Commonwealth owned Wine and Spirits store run by the PENNSYLVANIA LIQUOR CONTROL BOARD (PLCB). There are positives and negatives to the "State Store" system, but one big plus is the Chairman's Selection of wines. The PLCB chairman, Jonathan Newman, buys entire allotments of particular wines and passes the savings onto the State Store customer. Some wines are a fantastic value, others are not as great, but Newman has developed a good palate for wine and gets good wine buying advice such that there are few, if any, duds. . Most stores carry at least a few of the Chairman's Selection, but find a Specialty Store and you'll have most all of the Chairman's Selection to choose from.

PLCB employees take wine tasting classes and you're likely to find reasonably good guidance, especially at a Specialty Store. Nevertheless, taste lots of wines, make some notes, and try wines recommended by different reputable magazines based on their description of the wine as much as by the score. Eventually your own preferences will emerge and you'll understand your palate.

FWIW, over the years I've learned that certain importers bring in wines that I like. I'm just as likely to look at the back of the bottle where the importer's name is, as I am the front label.

To find a PLCB store near you, look here:

http://www.pawineandspirits.com/webapp/wcs...10051&langId=-1

To peruse the current Chairman's Selection look here:

http://www.lcb.state.pa.us/webApp/Product_..._Selections.asp

To see if a wine you want is available at stores near you, look here:

http://www.lcb.state.pa.us/WebApp/Product_...fault_inter.asp

[russ parsons]

a couple things you might want to think about. first, go to the best local wine store and find out if they do general tasting classes. these can be invaluable for giving you a guided tour through the basics. it's one thing to read that a cabernet has mint, but maybe when you smell it, it's more like eucalyptus. a good teacher can help you make sense of all this much better than a book can.

second, don't move too fast. take your time. as you learn about wine, your tastes will change. know that at least a third of the things you firmly believe after your first couple of years will turn out to be wrong. or maybe not wrong, but just no longer for you. This will probably be true at every five-year-interval (from wishing i hadn't invested so heavily in late 70s, early 80s bordeaux, now i'm kinda glad i did).

most important, beware false sophistication. measure everything by whether you honestly like it, rather than whether you think you should.

[Brad Ballinger]

Mano,

Good catch on the Pennsylvania thing. I've been to one of the state shops in Philadelphia. Selection likely varies from store to store, but I noticed the prices seemed to be higher than perhaps they should be.

phlox,

I suggest popping on on the Pennsylvania Forum, and seeing where people like to buy wine around Pittsburgh. Also, eG team member KatieLoeb is familiar with the PLCB, and can offer you some suggestions. There is currently a 29 page thread here that discusses wine bargains at the PLCB. You've probably already seen it.

I don't know if you'd find more variety in Wheeling or Youngstown, but it may be worth checking out wine stores in those cities when you're in those areas.

[Mano]

Mano,

Good catch on the Pennsylvania thing.  I've been to one of the state shops in Philadelphia.  Selection likely varies from store to store, but I noticed the prices seemed to be higher than perhaps they should be.

←

The Chairman's Selections are deeply discounted, but you're right about prices on most all other wines and spirits; they're higher than states where a competitive market exists.

Don't get me, Katie, or anyone else from PA started on the downside of the PLCB system. You'd think that with the buying power of the ENTIRE COMMONWEALTH OF PENNSYLVANIA all the prices would be the lowest in the country. There's so much more to it than that, but if one choses to look at the system optimistically, at any given time there are a handful or more of wines here that are amazing bargains.

[moosnsqrl]

I agree with most of the advice upthread and would add this: a component tasting. They break wine down to the basics: sugar, acid, alcohol, tannins. Understanding what is causing you to like or not like a wine enables you to better express your tastes when you're asking for help from a sommelier or merchant.

Being able to do that is like speaking esperanto (ok, bad analogy); if you know you like XYZ wine but it is not available at a store/restaurant, asking for something similar is a good idea IF the person helping you is also familiar with XYZ. If you can articulate WHY you like XYZ, they can steer you in the right direction whether or not they've tried your "target" wine.

But taste, taste, taste and take advantage of low-cost tastings, samplings (if they're legal there?) or even recruiting some friends who are also interested and having each bring a bottle (pick a varietal, set a $ figure everyone is comfortable with) will enable you to try many wines without breaking the bank.