FoH Staff That Judge the BoH

[SeanDirty]

Restaurants is my life, part of my job is to keep on-top of restaurant trends, what restaurants are opening, and whats going on within them. So it is safe to say I get to eat out quite a bit.

Also being a graduate of the CiA, well as with most cooks, chefs, restauranters, we are all very critical about our food, and our service. Good service is recognized, and would never need to be pointed out, if done correctly. Danny Meyer's many restaurants (minus shake shack, and tabla) are great examples of hospitality, and how any stranger should be treated, if not all the time, but at least when you walk through the door of any restaurant.... with a name... Especially the times when you walk into a restaurant not expecting any type of hospitality, and you leave feeling like family.

Anyways Long story short, I am sick of high end restaurants that look down on you. I dont ever feel like wearing formal attire when i stroll into a high end restaurant, but I do when I have to. It is the times when I don't wear my formal wear to a restaurant is when I get the most, looks.

It is the hostess or the host, or the host managers that makes me sick. Have you ever walked into a restaurant just to see them checking you out, looking you from head to toe to see if they are going to talk to you like a human being or merely a stain on their shoe. Help me out guys Help me list the restaurants that do this, lets get them out in the open. Maybe this is just the wake-up call they need to change their ways. This is just the few that have given me attitude for wearing nice Jeans, and nice sneakers into their restaurants.

1. Le Bernardin

2. A Voce

I know its short now, but i know this list will grow.

[Andrew Fenton]

It's reasonable to question whether or not restaurants ought to have dress codes. But let's not pretend that restaurants that do are judging patrons on whether they are "rich enough". A pair of loafers aren't any more expensive than a pair of "nice sneakers"; similarly, a pair of Dockers will set you back a whole lot less than lots of jeans.

[SeanDirty]

It's reasonable to question whether or not restaurants ought to have dress codes.  But let's not pretend that restaurants that do are judging patrons on whether they are "rich enough".  A pair of loafers aren't any more expensive than a pair of "nice sneakers"; similarly, a pair of Dockers will set you back a whole lot less than lots of jeans.

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AyE this is true, but really what i mean is that, you are paying their bills, their wages, without the customer there wouldent be stories about Per Se, El Bulli, a rockstar without fans is not a star at all. I am not demanding respect in a restaurant, nor should i ever have to, it should be "part of the bill". Ha!

[Sneakeater]

I don't see anything wrong with a restaurant's preferring customers not to be wearing jeans and sneakers.

[FabulousFoodBabe]

I'm not sure what you're asking. Not rich enough? That can't be determined just by looking at someone. And I'm not sure that your feeling looked down upon is the restaurant's issue.

When you walked into Le Bernardin in jeans and sneakers, did you not know what the restaurant was all about? Why do you, as a professional, think that they should not have a dress code?

(Loved the Sopranos episode where Tony asked a guy to remove his baseball cap inside a restaurant and when the guy refused, pulled a gun on him. I know the feeling!)

[Andrew Fenton]

When you walked into Le Bernardin in jeans and sneakers, did you not know what the restaurant was all about?  Why do you, as a professional, think that they should not have a dress code? 

Exactly. No offense, SeanDirty, but it sounds like you were the one who came in with an attitude. I don't buy the argument that because you're paying the restaurant, you don't have to follow its rules. If you don't like those rules, just don't eat there.

Edited August 2, 2006 by Andrew Fenton (log)

[Sneakeater]

This may initially seem off-topic, but it really isn't.

It really pisses me off that people wear jeans and sneakers to (non-pop) concerts and theatrical performances. I think it's disrespectful to the performers.

Similarly, has it occurred to the initiator of this thread that he's dissing the restaurant at least as much as he thinks the staff is dissing him?

[Noodlebot]

It's even worse when a restaurant looks down on you DESPITE your attire. I went to Danube for my last birthday with my boyfriend. We're both young and perhaps didn't look as monied as some of the other patrons there, but I wore a nice dress and expensive shoes, my boyfriend nice pants with an expensive dress shirt and nice shoes. Despite ordering the tasting menu w/wine pairings and spending over $400, our waiter was incredibly snooty and sarcastic throughout dinner. Luckily, after a few glasses of wine, we were able to ignore the attitude and have a good time, but the experience did leave me w/a sour taste in my mouth.

[rich]

Always carry a spare cape in your car. It will "dress-up" any outfit.

[Andrew Fenton]

Always carry a spare cape in your car. It will "dress-up" any outfit.

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Great suggestion! Also, if there is any crime in the restaurant, you will be all set to fight it.

[Rachel Perlow]

Good service is recognized, and would never need to be pointed out, if done correctly.  Danny Meyer's many restaurants (minus shake shack, and tabla) are great examples of hospitality, and how any stranger should be treated, if not all the time, but at least when you walk through the door of any restaurant.... with a name...  Especially the times when you walk into a restaurant not expecting any type of hospitality, and you leave feeling like family. 

Why do you list Shake Shack and Tabla as non-examples? Well, OK, Shake Shack is usually too busy to treat you like family, but Tabla? I've found it to be very welcoming, with great service and positive staff attitude, not to mention the killer food.

[Daniel]

And I have found Eleven Madison snooty at times.. And nice other times.

Edited August 2, 2006 by Daniel (log)

[rich]

Always carry a spare cape in your car. It will "dress-up" any outfit.

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Great suggestion! Also, if there is any crime in the restaurant, you will be all set to fight it.

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Only if there's a nearby phone booth to change.

[Leonard Kim]

I would submit that, at least with respect to concerts and other performances, but probably with restaurants as well, that the issue is less with the "performers" than with other patrons. I think most musicians would take any audience they can get, however dressed. And it's not as if they can or do scrutinize the audience during performance, especially if the venue is darkened.

Patrons, on the other hand, may care about the overall experience, on top of the sounds or tastes, that includes things like the community with which they are sharing the experience. I would guess that direct or subtle discouragement of perhaps underdressed patrons on the part of the staff is a result of some unspoken agreement or understanding with their regular demographic and their preferences. The staff's thinking process, justified or not, is something like, "if I don't make at least some show of caring about dress, in the larger picture, that may upset more of the people on whom our livelihood depends."

In the end, it's less about "the restaurant," whatever nebulous thing that might be, than with the specific instances of personal interaction involved, which may indeed be poorly handled. And perhaps those instances may sometimes be more reflective of the specific staff member than the offended/offending patron. Maybe you should start a no-hire list of staff members who've upset you. Or maybe that system is in place already (get enough complaints and ...) and there's little point to this.

If there's evidence that a restaurant as an institution has a systematic policy of belittling certain kinds of customers (the Mel Gibson House of Pork, for example), that's different and would be worth calling out.

Edited August 2, 2006 by Leonard Kim (log)

[alanamoana]

i used to feel this way, and still do on occasion. it isn't that i would walk in with jeans and sneakers, but maybe i felt that i wasn't wearing the right thing compared to other people. i think i've gotten to the point where i realize this is my own insecurity and that i have to get over it. if i've had bad service experiences, it probably has less to do with how i'm dressed than my bad luck at getting a shitty server for the evening. i know, being in the business, that i certainly treat foh staff decently (when i'm a guest ). and i know that there are front of house staff that only care about the tip...i don't know why i can't bring myself to tip according to service as i still usually leave around 20%, but rather than "outing" a restaurant for what you perceive to be snooty service you have several options:

1) leave a crap tip

2) leave a crap tip with a comment on the check

3) leave a normal tip but write the restaurant a letter

4) dress appropriately

or any combination of the above.

i hate dressing up too, but if i don't want to dress up, i'm not going to go to le bernardin, i'm going to get delivery. it's respect for yourself, the restaurant and other patrons who dressed up because it was a special occasion for themselves or whatever.

sneakeater: i have to disagree with you regarding the concerts and plays. most of the actors and/or musicians can't see you. i don't pay attention to what other people are wearing because it is dark and i'm paying attention to the stage. it isn't quite the same as a restaurant where the ambience is part of what you're paying for. i don't think it shows any disrespect as you've paid for the ticket and therefore their paycheck. there are more people of lesser means that are willing to support the arts (rather than spend the money at an expensive restaurant).

edited to add: cross posted with Leonard Kim, so although my post is poorly worded in comparison, we said most of the same things

Edited August 2, 2006 by alanamoana (log)

[chefboy24]

i walked into a voce for lunch with cargo shorts and a polo and addidas orange sneakers with my boyfriend, spent $300 for two on lunch, had a great time, got treated very nicely by everyone.

[JohnL]

First, intimidation takes two.

No one who refuses to let themselves be intimidated will be....intimidated.

Second, most times, intimidation involves a certain amount of insecurity on the part of the intimidated. life will be much easier (and more enjoyable) if one "fixes" the insecurity rather than develop a chip on one's shoulder or spends a lifetime cowering and whimpering in the corner.

Third, restaurants cultivate an ambiance and atmosphere for their patrons.

This is so people can be comfortable where they are dining.

Thus, a restaurant whose clientele is comprised of couples sharing a romantic evening out and/or business people with their clients would prefer an atmosphere where young children are scurrying about or playing with their game boys etc just as kids would be uncomfortable having a bunch of dressed up adults ruining their fun.

So we have Chucky Cheese and Le Bernardin (and everything in between).

A big problem today is that IMOP, too many people are so self centered as to want to have it their way (not just their burgers either).

If a restaurant has a dress code then it becomes the restaurant's fault/issue. Some people just do not care--they wanna eat where they wanna eat and they will wear whatever they wanna wear.

(some of these arrogant) people are so childlike as to warrant banishment to Chucky Cheese!

The real shame of this is there are so many places with quite liberal and relaxed dress codes from low to high end that I wish there were more "formal" restaurants.

Part of the bargain between establishment and patron is that the patron will conform just a bit so that the ambiance of the restaurant can be maintained. (I know conform is a dirty word to a lot of you children of the sixties). If I were dining in Le Bernardin and a person in jeans and sneakers was seated I would be annoyed. I would consider my possibilities:

1--go Soprano on you

2--speak to the management

3--keep quiet and think twice about returning

This is not about you!

It is about me! (really all of us who have to put up with the likes of you--the collective we, if you will).

There is plenty of room within the rules for individuality.

In the days of the original Bouley I dined at a table next to one occupied by

Sammy Hagar (pre Van Halen) who like the rest of the room's diners was attired in a

conservatively tailored suit and tie.

The suit was red corduroy and the tie a bright yellow.

No one seemed uncomfortable! (he certainly didn't).

Finally, this is never about rich or poor--it is about insecurity.

If one feels like one does not belong some place for whatever reason one will be uncomfortable and one will be inclined to blame the establishment for that discomfort.

Truly snotty wait staff are easily dealt with by secure patrons.

so

If you are really uncomfortable wearing shoes and sporting a tie (really there are dressy looking shoes with sneaker like soles available today) then don't force yourself upon the restaurant and their patrons where shoes and a tie are the norm.

you will be uncomfortable and we will be uncomfortable.

There are plenty of options for you.

or

Suck it up and go with the flow!

[Luckylies]

it's respect for yourself, the restaurant and other patrons who dressed up because it was a special occasion for themselves or whatever.

sneakeater:  i have to disagree with you regarding the concerts and plays.  most of the actors and/or musicians can't see you.  i don't pay attention to what other people are wearing because it is dark and i'm paying attention to the stage.  it isn't quite the same as a restaurant where the ambience is part of what you're paying for.  i don't think it shows any disrespect as you've paid for the ticket and therefore their paycheck.  there are more people of lesser means that are willing to support the arts (rather than spend the money at an expensive restaurant).

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I've gotta agree with Sneakeater on this one. Some people go to the theatre for ambiance as well as the show. A guy in a hoddie windbreaker will certainly ruin the fantasy of going to the opera just as a guy in jeans would ruin the Alain Ducasse fantasy or whatever.

You just never want to remember that guy in the stupid shorts.

[jgm]

If any you haven't read Ruth Reichl's "Garlic and Sapphires", you'd probably enjoy it quite a bit. The treatment of restaurant customers who don't look like the restaurant's normal clientele is essentially the story she's telling. Very entertaining and very interesting!

[alanamoana]

it's respect for yourself, the restaurant and other patrons who dressed up because it was a special occasion for themselves or whatever.

sneakeater:  i have to disagree with you regarding the concerts and plays.  most of the actors and/or musicians can't see you.  i don't pay attention to what other people are wearing because it is dark and i'm paying attention to the stage.  it isn't quite the same as a restaurant where the ambience is part of what you're paying for.  i don't think it shows any disrespect as you've paid for the ticket and therefore their paycheck.  there are more people of lesser means that are willing to support the arts (rather than spend the money at an expensive restaurant).

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I've gotta agree with Sneakeater on this one. Some people go to the theatre for ambiance as well as the show. A guy in a hoddie windbreaker will certainly ruin the fantasy of going to the opera just as a guy in jeans would ruin the Alain Ducasse fantasy or whatever.

You just never want to remember that guy in the stupid shorts.

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right, but sneakeater was talking about respect for the actors/musicians, not about other patrons of the arts...whereas in a restaurant it is certainly more about the ambience that happens to include other diners. i'm not disagreeing with you, just pointing out the argument.

[Luckylies]

it's respect for yourself, the restaurant and other patrons who dressed up because it was a special occasion for themselves or whatever.

sneakeater:  i have to disagree with you regarding the concerts and plays.  most of the actors and/or musicians can't see you.  i don't pay attention to what other people are wearing because it is dark and i'm paying attention to the stage.  it isn't quite the same as a restaurant where the ambience is part of what you're paying for.  i don't think it shows any disrespect as you've paid for the ticket and therefore their paycheck.  there are more people of lesser means that are willing to support the arts (rather than spend the money at an expensive restaurant).

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I've gotta agree with Sneakeater on this one. Some people go to the theatre for ambiance as well as the show. A guy in a hoddie windbreaker will certainly ruin the fantasy of going to the opera just as a guy in jeans would ruin the Alain Ducasse fantasy or whatever.

You just never want to remember that guy in the stupid shorts.

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right, but sneakeater was talking about respect for the actors/musicians, not about other patrons of the arts...whereas in a restaurant it is certainly more about the ambience that happens to include other diners. i'm not disagreeing with you, just pointing out the argument.

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oh in that case, i'm not really sure where I stand on this one

[Sneakeater]

Then I'll amend it to mean respect for everyone involved.

[Luckylies]

1.  Le Bernardin

2.  A Voce

I know its short now, but i know this list will grow.

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I doubt this list will grow in this community. Nobody is going to blackball restaurants because they treated you poorly for being underdressed.

[Sneakeater]

And I have found Eleven Madison snooty at times.. And nice other times.

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I have to say that, Monday night, I walked in there in a dress shirt and a pair of chinos, and I was kind of worried about being underdressed, but they couldn't have been nicer.

[JohnL]

If any you haven't read Ruth Reichl's "Garlic and Sapphires", you'd probably enjoy it quite a bit.  The treatment of restaurant customers who don't look like the restaurant's normal clientele is essentially the story she's telling.  Very entertaining and very interesting!

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I did read it.

Enjoyed it as well.

Interestingly, I once dined in Le Cirque (in its original spot) with

people who were known to the owner and staff.

We were literally "fawned" over all night. (the owner showering my pasta with white truffles until I begged him to stop) the place clearly was

a dining club for the rich and famous (and infamous).

There's no way my wife and I (dining alone anonymously) would have received anywhere near the level of service we got that night. I wouldn't expect it.

One must understand that a restaurant establishes a clientele and an ambience that clientele feels comfortable in.

When going to a restaurant you really have to know what that ambience is and you simply have to conform. A place that thrives on celebrities has to be careful they don't put a table of over exuberant tourists next to a table of movie starts etc. --a table of unruly kids next to a table of couples having a romantic dinner.

I have found that if you look the part and act the part you will be accepted most anywhere these days. When you are accepted you will be comfortable (even though that tie is choking you--you can always loosen it a bit)--the place is comfortable with you.

If I absolutely have to wear sneakers to dinner--there are plenty of places serving very good food that will not care. Grenouille, Bernardin, Per Se, Masa, JGV are not among them. So why would I go and force myself on them and their patrons?

And then get pissed off that I did not get a good reception?

Fat Guy in his book noted the benefits of becoming a regular patron of a restaurant. Anyone rich or not so rich can do this. First ya gotta "fit in."

as for problematic waitstaff, captains, hostesses etc--I don't see this often anymore--today--one has to be careful when dealing with the public--you never know who that anonymouse person is.

I have spoken to people who mis took a certain "attitude" some places cultivate for disrespect and felt intimidated.

The trick is to at least have an idea of what the restaurant you are going to dine at is all about and try to look and act the part. And above all refuse to let anyone intimidate you.