Pasta "alla marinara"

[Pizza Napoletana]

As we have opened the message more on the grammar side, I would like to point out that the word Marinara is a synonym of Marina, which denote an area by the sea. Other synonymes includes della marina, marinaresca (same roots) e marittima. All with nothing to do with a wife of the Marinaio.

[slkinsey]

The reason why Pollo alla pizzaiola stays with an "a" at the end is because it should be "Pollo alla salsa pizzaiola" where salsa is dropped, and this happen quite a lot in Italian.

How would this explain pollo alla cacciatora, in which there is no salsa? How would this explain something like pesto alla Genovese?

As we have opened the message more on the grammar side, I would like to point out that the word Marinara is a synonym of Marina, which denote an area by the sea. Other synonymes includes della marina, marinaresca (same roots) e marittima. All with nothing to do with a wife of the Marinaio.

I'll only point out that Lo Zingarelli has marinaro as an old form of marinaio. If marinaio has the meaning "sailor," then marinaro is an old word for "sailor" despite the fact that it may not have that primary meaning today. Lo Zingarelli also has marinara as the feminine form of marinaro, along with some additional and more modern usages.

[Pizza Napoletana]

Cacciatora is the coat of the hunter (giacca in Italian),

Genovese is a person from Genova:

Napoletano : From Napoli

Genovese: From Genova

Romano: From Rome

Milanese from Milan.,....

The stiles coming from these area are therefore defined as follows:

Stile Napoletano

Stile Genovese

Stile Romano

Stile Milanese

Again, as I said earlier, you have to ask the question " what this x adjective is referring to?"

Pesto alla Gevovese (in the style of Genova) as in the Roman times there were many regional pesto (in the south a mixture of wild herbs was often used as well as other nuts)

About the Cacciatora, the story would be long but that particular jacket has space to carry some game.....

PS IMO the very best Italian dictionary is the Devoti-Oli

Hope to have made some clarity. My original answer was only directed to that particular sauce and was not my intention to cover all the grammar related to it, sorry.

[ghostrider]

I'm actually glad that I asked the converse of the question I intended to ask. The discussion is far more illuminating.

As for me, I'll continue to refer to spaghetti con aglio e olio. There seems to be no good reason, Lorenza de Medici notwithstanding, to call it marinara.

Edited June 7, 2006 by ghostrider (log)

[slkinsey]

PN, it seems to me that the grammar question is one that can't be definitively answered. Your explanation makes some sense, I agree. But I have most often heard my explanation from my cook and trattoria owner friends in Italy.

Certainly one can always come up with a "hidden" noun of whatever gender anc claim that it is being modified by an adjective. But these words also work grammatically, and more commonly, as nouns themselves. Looking at something like tacchino alla romana, the word "romana" can either be interpreted as an adjective modifying some unspoken feminine noun, or it can be interpreted as indicating a female Roman ("una romana"). I don't see that it's logically provable one way or the other. In any event, this fork of the discussion seems to have played itself out and no longer seems germane, so I'll leave it at that.

[Pizza Napoletana]

PN, it seems to me that the grammar question is one that can't be definitively answered.  Your explanation makes some sense, I agree.  But I have most often heard my explanation from my cook and trattoria owner friends in Italy.

Certainly one can always come up with a "hidden" noun of whatever gender anc claim that it is being modified by an adjective.  But these words also work grammatically, and more commonly, as nouns themselves.  Looking at something like tacchino alla romana, the word "romana" can either be interpreted as an adjective modifying some unspoken feminine noun, or it can be interpreted as indicating a female Roman ("una romana").  I don't see that it's logically provable one way or the other.  In any event, this fork of the discussion seems to have played itself out and no longer seems germane, so I'll leave it at that.

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S

"alla maniera romana", in the roman way, that is a very common italian frase, where maniera drop (but it could be alla napoletana, alla milanese etc. with the same meaning..).

I do not really want to argue with you, but if you base your info on a cook and a trattoria owners it would not be as accurate as grammatic and hystoric reference (no offence to anyone). When I was doing my exstensive research on Pizza Napoletana, I spoke to a pizza chef and restaurant owner that told me his pizzeria was about 100 years old... I then found documents that prove that it was already open in 1750.....(250 years)... And Even when you talk about cooking and recipe with these people, unless they are also true researchers, the info provided will be very inaccurate...

Ciao

[Pizza Napoletana]

I'm actually glad that I asked the converse of the question I intended to ask.  The  discussion is far more illuminating.

As for me, I'll continue to refer to spaghetti con aglio e olio.  There seems to be no good reason, Lorenza de Medici notwithstanding, to call it marinara.

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Aglio e olio is 100% an olive oil, garlic and chilli pepper pasta. Most often Parsley is added on top and breadcrumb & anchovies make a very traditional variation from an old neapolitan quarters.

Edited June 7, 2006 by Pizza Napoletana (log)

[docsconz]

FWIW, the derivation I am used to is the same one that Sam mentioned that it was the fisherman's wife who made this quick sauce upon seeing the fishing boats return. That there should be some confusion with puttanesca should not really be a surprise as that is another quickly cooked sauce traditionally. The story behind that one is that it was a sauce made by wives who were too busy doing other things to make a complex, slow sauce. In some respects these sauces were the original "fast foods".

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2) Puttanesca: the women are prostitutes between tricks, not wives.

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I was trying to be discreet (i.e. "too busy doing other things"). A "putta" is not necessarily a prostitute selling her wares.