Eleven Madison Park

[Sneakeater]

We already KNOW he couldn't have gotten a table at the uptown White Castle as a walk-in.

[flinflon28]

By this point this thread has grown so much that it will be on Eater or Gawker by the end of the day.  I wouldn't be surprised if the restaurant or a representative from USHG doesn't reach out to Nathan by the end of the week.  Justified or not it will make for good PR.

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do you think they'll ask him why he didn't call first?

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That would NOT be good PR.

It'd be pretty funny though.

[Fat Guy]

Given that Nathan has dined at the bar before at that specific restaurant, it's hardly fair to say he made an error in judgment by not calling. I think it was logical and rational for him to assume that whatever menu was being served for V-day would be available at the bar. Sometimes the logical and rational prediction turns out to be wrong. Such is life.

[Simon_S]

While I think the policy of no food at the bar is fair enough and the restaurant is perfectly entitled to make this decision, what would particularly grate for me is the fact that he was given time to settle at the bar, order a drink and was only then told that there had been a policy change for the evening. If I walked in and was told upfront that food was not being served at the bar then I'd feel a little better about it. I wonder was this part of the irritation?

Si

[DRColby]

Six of us were at 11 Madison last week for an engagement party, of sorts. While most were impressed (as they should be with a $900 tab, with tip), I was slightly underwhelmed.

I guess my lowly impressions started when we needed an explanation of a pretty simple menu that flowed to the "Chef says.... the whole table must eat the same number of courses on the tasting menu, etc”.... Then there was the service; we were slightly intimidated by the staff numbers, headed by hovering of the young Cornell restaurant management graduate. All seemed to be waiting to move to the next great Danny Meyer hit. The highlight, though, was when one off our party drained the last dregs from a bottle of red and the wine steward engaged in a wrestling match. For some reason at 11 Madison they insist on decanting all reds - cheap or expensive. The women thought it impractical to leave 2 inches in the bottle before moving on to the next. “See, no sediment!”

It was a memorable but not great dining experience.

The next day my wife and I ate at the Bar at the Modern.It may have been the difference of night and day, but I found this Meyer offering exceptional: whole different service and much better dining atmosphere.

Dave

Dave

[JohnL]

Given that Nathan has dined at the bar before at that specific restaurant, it's hardly fair to say he made an error in judgment by not calling. I think it was logical and rational for him to assume that whatever menu was being served for V-day would be available at the bar. Sometimes the logical and rational prediction turns out to be wrong. Such is life.

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Not calling ahead or having a backup plan is not an "error in judgment"--it is common sense that if used will help raise the odds that one will have a success in dining out.

The more assumptions one relies upon the greater likelihood one will be disappointed.

I believe that diners are often quick to assign blame to a restaurant for a less than perfect dining experience when in fact, the problem is due to unreasonable expectations and assumptions on the diner's part. Many times these issues arise as the result of a misunderstanding or miscommunication that would be resolved by simply engaging the staff and if necessary, the manager or sommelier etc. I also believe that many people with complaints sit passively and don't speak up and deal with the issue or problem in the moment but rather go home and stew over it by which time the perceived slight and the irritation has grown out of proportion to reality.

It is understandable that Nathan was irritated but I see no way that the restaurant was at fault here. Could the restaurant have done something to assuage that irritation even though they were in no way obligated to do so? Possibly, and only if nathan had spoken up and, if he felt it necessary, engage the manager. But I also believe that regardless, Nathan should have just chalked this up to some bad luck and moved on--life is too short.....

[Nathan]

I understand that my expectation that a restaurant would actually be in the business of serving food is "unreasonable."

It is also apparent that it is "unreasonable" to expect to have a nice dinner on one's birthday anywhere in NY if one's birthday happens to coincide with a "make money off the rubes" day.

edit: "Could the restaurant have done something to assuage that irritation even though they were in no way obligated to do so?"

I'd say that the amount of money I've spent in Danny Meyer restaurants should have some bearing in whether they were under any "obligation"....frankly, I would have been a lot less offended if they had also closed the bar to un-reserved patrons...that would have been more honest than..."we're more than willing to take your money...but we won't feed you."

Edited February 16, 2007 by Nathan (log)

[Nathan]

"I believe that diners are often quick to assign blame to a restaurant for a less than perfect dining experience when in fact, the problem is due to unreasonable expectations and assumptions on the diner's part."

In almost three years and 1,534 posts on egullet, this is the first time I have complained about the service at any restaurant.

[Nathan]

furthermore, historically Danny Meyer has made his name by offering decent to very good food at a bit higher price point than his direct competitors...(for the same level of comfort food) but justifying that premium by the service provided.

for precisely that reason, draconian and ill-considered policies are more egregious in a Danny Meyer operation than at a BRGuest restaurant.

[oakapple]

I understand that my expectation that a restaurant would actually be in the business of serving food is "unreasonable."

I'm sure EMP served food to hundreds of people that night. They didn't serve you because you didn't have a reservation, hadn't called ahead to check availability, and expected a service (dining at the bar) that they weren't offering that day.

About a year ago, a friend and I went up to Blue Hill at Stone Barns to have dinner at the bar. I had done this twice before in the past, and had no reason to doubt that it would work a third time. Unfortunately, they were closed for a private party, and weren't able to accommodate us. Were we disappointed? Yes. Did I blame the restaurant? No. From now on, I know to call ahead.

It is also apparent that it is "unreasonable" to expect to have a nice dinner on one's birthday anywhere in NY if one's birthday happens to coincide with a "make money off the rubes" day.

The lesson is that if you haven't made a reservation or called ahead, this is indeed unreasonable. It might all work out, it might not.

[Nathan]

somehow, I was 99% certain that they were not going to be closed for a private party on Wednesday night.

somehow, I am 100% certain that they didn't do the number of covers they had booked (some people here are apparently oblivious to Wednesday's weather).

somehow, I knew that if I couldn't eat at a Danny Meyer restaurant I wasn't going to be able to eat anywhere (other than a steakhouse)...

edit: like I said, I am completely certain that they would have bent over backwards for a couple who had expected to eat at the bar on V-day.

what was apparently "unreasonable" was to expect the same consideration for a solo diner.

Edited February 16, 2007 by Nathan (log)

[Sneakeater]

Maybe I'm a patsy (and maybe I don't eat in enough Danny Meyer restaurants), but I don't get restaurant staff "bending over backwards" to accomodate me too often. Either they can, in which case they do, or they can't, in which case they don't. But they don't do more than that. I'm not sure what more they can do.

Most times when I walk into The Bar Room at The Modern (a Danny Meyer place), they can seat me. Sometimes -- a fair number of times -- they can't. But when they can't, there's never anybody there who'll try to get me a table at some other restaurant. They just tell me they can't seat me, and I'm on my way to find somewhere else.

A few nights ago, I thought I'd try to eat at the London Bar before a Carnegie Hall concert. It was obviously full. There was a very nice FOH guy who said he'd look for a seat for me. He looked, coudn't find one, and politely asked if I wanted to have a drink and wait to see if anything opened up. I didn't want to do that, so I thanked him and left. He didn't do anything more to try to accomodate me. What more could have he done? I thought what he did was enough.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I don't see what you think they should have done for you at EMP. I've never had anyone, anywhere, try to get me into another related restaurant after being unable to seat me, without my specifically asking them to do so. And frankly, when restaurants tell me they're full, I just believe they're full. It never occurs to me to press them. As I said, maybe I don't expect enough.

You put yourself at risk because you never like to make reservations. That's your preference. If I have a "special" meal, a meal that means a lot to me, I never ever leave it to chance. That's my preference. We're each entitled to our different preferences. But I think that having yours, you sort of forfeit the right to complain if things don't work out.

Finally, it's nuts to say you couldn't eat anywhere on Wednesday other than at a Danny Meyer restaurant or a steakhouse. I found someplace very good to serve me dinner that was neither of those things. But your very statement that you thought those were your only two options is an acknowledgment that Valentine's Day is rough if you don't have reservations. I just don't understand what the magical Danny Meyer Customer Service Model is supposed to give you in those circumstances.

Edited February 16, 2007 by Sneakeater (log)

[JohnL]

Nathan

The fact that you never complained before really has little bearing on this complaint.

let's see: you walked into a restaurant on one of the busiest restaurant nights of the year--sat at the bar where you were told the tasting menu was no longer available (restaurant policy) and were told that food was not being served at the bar at all on this--the busiest night of the year! (restaurant policy).

You say nothing more--and leave in a snit!

(understandable given the "crimp" in your evening.--by the way happy birthday!).

For this, you, in a public forum accuse the restaurant with words like "draconian" and "ill considered policies"

You are also certain that if you were part of a "snuggly couple" the place would certainly have broken their policy and accommodated you. (another in a long list of assumptions)--further fueling your ire.

I do sympathize with you. But I just can not see where the restaurant is remotely at fault here. Any restaurant (even BR Guest operations which you also slight with no justification) would be wrong for behavior or policies that are genuinely "Draconian" or "ill considered."

I think that you are just stewing over this a bit too much and are over reacting to perceived slights. I am sorry, but I just don't see how your misfortune warrants such perceptions and reactions.

But that's just me.

My advice would be to move on. If I am free (next valentine's Day--though I try my damnedest to be part of a snuggly couple) I will gladly meet you at any fine restaurant--no one should be alone on one's birthday! We can just walk in and eat at the bar

But if you don't mind--I will call ahead!

Cheers!!!!

Edited February 16, 2007 by JohnL (log)

[Nathan]

well, without going 60 blocks...

I've never not been seated at the Bar Room...and I've eaten there close to 15 times...I always proceed straight to the bar and tell the bartender that I'm planning on eating...they put me in the next seat that opens up.

actually, most restaurants refused to take solo reservations on Wednesday. I checked.

quite frankly, your London Bar experience was my expectation. they didn't meet that.

[Nathan]

"You are also certain that if you were part of a "snuggly couple" the place would certainly have broken their policy and accommodated you."

I never ever said they would break their policy for a couple. I said that they would try to accomodate (quite likely considering the number of cancellations that everyone had....I posted an article to that effect up the thread)....

[ulterior epicure]

For someone who currently resides in the middle of a corn field (and I appreciate that it is my choice - to some extent), I can only say that I'd trade places with you in a heartbeat to have to default to Craftsteak when disappointed by EMP on one of the busiest nights of the year (and knowing that it was so, and not having called to check whether or not "normal" service was being offered).

All was clearly not lost.

Edited February 16, 2007 by ulterior epicure (log)

[Sneakeater]

quite frankly, your London Bar experience was my expectation.  they didn't meet that.

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But the London Bar is a bar/lounge, where a lot of the seats are unreserved. So the FOH guy did what you'd expect in a no-reservations type place. The dining room at EMP is completely different -- as, for that matter, is the dining room at Ramsay. I wouldn't expect anyone at the Ramsay dining room to "bend over backward" to "accomodate me" if I wandered in without a reservation. I'd expect them to tell me they're fully booked (if they are), and to send me on my way. And this VD, the dining room was apparently the only option at EMP, because they'd decided not to serve food at the bar.

I'm not saying this to be accusatory, but only as a possible explanation: I think you may have gotten so out of the loop in terms of reserved dining rooms that you've kind of forgotten the assumptions on which they operate. You just can't expect to wander in -- especially on the busiest night of the year, weather or no weather -- and expect to be seated. Or even to be greeted with anything other than a raised eyebrow. (Although you're not completely out of that loop, since even you reminded me recently that I couldn't expect to just walk into Alinea and order the Tour without a reservation.)

Edited February 16, 2007 by Sneakeater (log)

[H. du Bois]

edit:  like I said, I am completely certain that they would have bent over backwards for a couple who had expected to eat at the bar on V-day.

what was apparently "unreasonable" was to expect the same consideration for a solo diner.

This is simply presumption on your part. I have never been accommodated as part of a couple any more than I have been accommodated as a single if we/I did not have reservations. Never.

[rich]

edit:  like I said, I am completely certain that they would have bent over backwards for a couple who had expected to eat at the bar on V-day.

what was apparently "unreasonable" was to expect the same consideration for a solo diner.

This is simply presumption on your part. I have never been accommodated as part of a couple any more than I have been accommodated as a single if we/I did not have reservations. Never.

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Ms. du Bois, first let me say how nice it is to have you back after your brief hiatus. I hope the time off has rejuvenated your senses and palate.

Normally, I'm just told to get out whether by myself or with people - at one restaurant anyway.

[Todd36]

Had dinner there about 10 days ago:

Parsnip apple soup with Black Truffes---good

Loup de Mer---good

Suckling Pig Confit--yikes. Perhaps I missed something, but I did not like it at all. Tasted weird, not like pork.

The freebie cheese balls were no where as good as under the prior regime.

I was not as impressed as by the items I had at the bar about 6 weeks ago. I would say two stars was fair.

Had a glass of dryish Tokai and they tossed in a glass of sweet Tokai from next week's menu, it was very good.

[Fat Guy]

I can't for the life of me understand all the griping about the room. What more could one ask for? To me it's one of the most beautiful restaurant spaces in the country, it now looks better than ever without the intrusive hoops around the original chandeliers, and I don't find the size bothersome -- I don't even find it relevant. I think it's great that the restaurant now has a chef who has the talent to equal the room. When it comes time to write the history of Eleven Madison Park, I hope it will be the story of this wonderful room becoming, in every way, the restaurant it deserves to be.

That said, I think we're still midstream in terms of the development of Eleven Madison Park under Daniel Humm (pronounced "whom," by the way). There's no question in my mind that the cuisine at Eleven Madison Park is vastly improved (which is not to say I don't miss the pea flan and a few other dishes). There's also no question in my mind that Humm is a talented perfectionist with a broad command of contemporary culinary techniques and a nuanced sensibility when it comes to flavors. He has done so much with the restaurant and the menu, the primary focus should be on his accomplishments.

The secondary focus should be, I think, on what remains to be done.

First, an excellent pastry program is an absolute necessity -- and right now it simply falls short. Nicole Kaplan's wonderful desserts were probably not appropriate for the new Eleven Madison Park, however the restaurant needs to find someone of her caliber who does pastry in a style compatible with Daniel Humm's. That, or the current pastry chef needs to ramp it up quite a bit -- certainly there were enough excellent components scattered among the four desserts we tried to indicate that there is talent in the pastry kitchen, but it needs to be focused. The restaurant would be wise not to be lulled into a false sense of security by its now-prix-fixe formula. With dessert included in the menu price, there's no immediate market-based feedback, however I doubt many people would be ordering dessert at Eleven Madison Park at, say, $16 per dessert right now if given an a la carte choice. Dessert is the grand finale of the meal. If it's not great, too many people will walk away with a negative impression. Currently, it's not great. A more serious cheese program would also be appropriate for the new Eleven Madison Park.

Second, service is still not fully re-tooled for Humm's style of cuisine. Everybody we interacted with this evening was warm, courteous and competent -- I liked our server, which counts for a lot -- however the team still needs to pull together into a service team for an haute-cuisine restaurant. Eleven Madison Park used to have the ideal service for the kind of food it was serving in the relaxed style of that incarnation of the restaurant. But the rules of the game have changed. The kitchen is putting out a whole lot of plates, the cuisine is complex and the whole attitude needs to be more serious. There's a way to be personable while still maintaining the requisite level of rigor. The Modern has this down in its formal dining room. It may very well be that a price increase to bring Eleven Madison Park on par with the Modern is the way to handle this: right now the Eleven Madison Park menu is $76 and the Modern's is $85. I'd hate to see higher absolute pricing, and that $9 may not seem like a lot, but it might give the restaurant a lot more cash (and gratuity basis) to play with in order to finance a more seamless integration of the back and front of the house, not to mention a bump up in portion sizes (not so much for the purpose of more food as for being able to do more with the compositions), thus offering better value despite a higher price.

Third, I hope Daniel Humm will start giving more thought to the notion of a unique selling proposition. Right now he's demonstrating a range of virtuoso talents. I'm convinced that Daniel Humm can cook everything, that he is a master of every technique. But to what end? I think the approach could use some editing. Because right now, I'm not really sure how I'd describe the food at Eleven Madison Park without resorting to a dish-by-dish description. And as good as I think just about every dish is (or at least the nine menu items and assorted amuses I've tried), in the end I want to go to restaurants that distinguish themselves -- that offer me a package I can't get elsewhere.

A few notes on specific dishes:

I thought the foie gras torchon came the closest to the style I hope Humm will adopt across the board. The torchon comes on one plate, and there's a separate dish of foie gras brulee. There's also brioche served on another plate. The dish takes time to work through and offers much in the way of counterpoint. I agree with many of the comments here that have noted that the prix-fixe menu items are mostly like tasting-menu items not actual appetizers and entrees. The foie gras torchon is an example of how to do a great regular-menu dish in Humm's style.

Another favorite was the marinated hamachi with foie gras -- the very thin slices of foie gras are hidden under the hamachi. The hamachi and foie gras combination works even better, I think, than eel with foie gras or tuna with foie gras (two fish-and-foie pairings that have enjoyed popularity in the past few years), I think because hamachi is a full-on fish experience as opposed to meat-like seared tuna or eel. So it's both a good match and an interesting contrast.

There's a $20 supplement for the "gnocchi of la ratte potatoes with Hawaiian prawns, leeks and black truffles," which I fear may lead too few people to order this amazing dish (we didn't order it -- the kitchen kindly sent it out as a mid-meal taste). Gnocchi have become ubiquitous, and ubiquitously mediocre, of late, but these are way out ahead of the pack. They're texturally textbook, and the prawns, with their firmer but also soft texture, cut into chunks similar in size to the gnocchi, add a multiplier of interest to the dish -- as do the truffles.

Finally, I'll add my voice to the voices of everyone else who has praised the Four Story Hill Farms poularde with truffles and butternut squash. The flavor of every ingredient is intense, and the plating artful. Now how about doing it with a whole bird rather than a tasting portion of boneless breast?

I also really like that you can order any two (or three if you go up $12) savory dishes from the prix-fixe menu and they'll size them appropriately. So, for example, if you want the sturgeon as your first course you'll get one size portion and if you want it for your main you'll get about twice the portion (though in absolute terms all the portions are rather small). I didn't take advantage of that arrangement, but it's good to know it's available.

[ulterior epicure]

Fat Guy,

Thanks for that comprehensive and thoughtful (and very helpful) post.

I gather from you posting, although I don't think you stated exactly which menu format you ordered, that the meal reflected in this post was the regular three-course "prix fixe?" You mention nine plus dishes sampled, but I'm assuming you included others' at the table.

Thanks.

u.e.

[oakapple]

I echo FG's comments about the room: I don't really understand what there is to complain about.

[Fat Guy]

I don't think you stated exactly which menu format you ordered, that the meal reflected in this post was the regular three-course "prix fixe?" 

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Correct.

[Simon_S]

Question: if you were in NY for a very limited period, and dinner at EMP just didn't seem to fit into the itinerary, would you visit EMP for Sunday brunch or just wait for dinner on a future visit?

Si