Adventures with sodium alginate

[Digijam]

Also, how do I do butter a la Chef Stupak at Alinea?  I didn't mention this in my last post but I was messing around with butter, and all I got was a big greasy oil slick on top of the alginate.

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Finally grabbed a moment in the kitchen to have a muck around... Cooked up a little beurre monte, emulsified with some lecithin, mixed in CaCl, and then added gelatin to get the mix thick enough to handle during the sphere-making stage. Cooled over ice and then turned out into the alginate bath as usual.

It worked, after a fashion. I still find when doing reverse spherifications that the thickness of the alginate bath makes it hard to get a good sphere. Figure next time more gelatin and maybe less alginate will help ensure the butter mix is the thicker and heavier of the two. I might also see if, as Pounce suggested, that the butter's calcium level is low enough for it work with the alginate back in the mix and the CaCl in the bath.

Here's the (slightly unspherical) result after about two minutes in the alginate and then a quick wash.

Then blowtorched to remelt the gelatin. Cut into it and...

Not bad. Certainly tasted buttery, but obviously needs to be paired with contrasting tastes and textures. Any idea what they serve it with at Alinea?

Next time think I'll dip them in egg white, then coat with salt and ground freshly toasted popcorn. Spheres with beers - now that could work.

[BenjaminTheBartender]

Hey Everyone

After reading this thread i decided I definately had to become a member of eGullet I've been inspired a lot by reading all of it. I currently work as a waiter a well acclaimed restaurant in Denmark (and am Danish myself, so please excuse the not completely flawless english) and have also worked as a bartender for a few years, long story short, I'm really getting into this new molecular mixology trend and all of the information on this thread has been very useful. I'm about to receive my starting kit and will start experimenting then, but before i have a few thoughts.

First of all, not to be negative, but I've had contact with a Danish firm called Cavi-Art in the slim hope that the owner might help make these pearls that everyone here are experimenting with and he told me that the company holds the patent for using sodium alginate and calsium cloride to make these "pearls" both in Denmark and in the US and when they discover people making them at restaurants they either file a lawsuit or tell them to stop very very annoying to put restraints on newly developed technology especially since El Bulli and others have been doing this for years.

I've started off doing the whole Gin Tonic with Agar gel on a frozen lemon chip, then topping off with baking soda and citric acid to create a fizzy feel in the mouth. worked pretty well and hopefully this next project will be a succes also.

[pounce]

I've seen many patents on encapsulating liquids in alginate/calcium, but I don't see one for this company. I seriously doubt there will be any lawsuits against restaurant owners. The technique is used in other industries as well and is certainly not new.

The patent system is terrible. If this company tried to take someone to court they are likely to pop up on the radar of the other patent holders for the same process and start a huge battle. There are a LOT of patents around the process. Here are some examples:

6,770,311

5,942,266

4,822,534

4,375,481

4,362,748

4,202,908

US Patent Search

* edited to include patent numbers instead of application numbers

I'm not afraid of the Danish alginate caviar overlords.

Edited July 7, 2006 by pounce (log)

[jbehmoaras]

I just ran into this thread, and with good timing, just last week i was looking for information on emulsifiers and the like and i must say some of the ideas you guys have been playing with are great.

With regards to the "pearls" you guys have been trying to make using squeeze tubes and droppers etc ... have you guys been releasin liquid under water or dropping them from above the surface of the solution that sets the shape of the pearls?

[BenjaminTheBartender]

Thank you very much for the info, I was worried I wouldn't be able to use it at the restaurant

BTW I was going to experiment with the height from where the drop is release compared to the water in order to see what the shape looks like, I'm thinking that if you release it a little higher the drop might look more like sphere than a drop before it hits the water, has anyone tried this?

And I used to work with a chef formerly employed at the Danish Royal Ship and he told that when i e.g. poched eggs in water, he would spin the the water fast creating a "hole" middle and drop the egg in to make it round, it's called centrifugal force in Danish but I don't know the English word... Sorry...

[jbehmoaras]

the word is the same in english ... no worries.

Let me know how droplets from different heights works out

[foodite]

Did anyone who attended the Fancy Food Show in Manhattan see the booth for Texturas el Bulli? They're actually under the name of Rogers Intl who is the US distributor.

The sous chef of minibar was there making orange juice ravioli and caviar as well as orange juice air.

[jbehmoaras]

were you able to see how he was making them

[s_sevilla]

I was reading the posts on trying to make round shapes, it seems to me that if you release the drop under the water it would be more likely to form a ball shape....I haven't recieved my chemicals yet, so I haven't tried, but this just comes to mind from images of liquids forming sphere's in micro-gravity. Dropping from above the liquid the drop will naturally take the most aerodynamic shape possible, that being a teardrop before entering the bath.....I'll have to see when I get my stuff and start experimenting.

Back to the shrimp broth experiment, I'm wondering if Calcium could have leached from the shells of the shrimp to the broth, affecting the chemistry of gelation when dropped into the water bath. Calcium Carbonate, which I believe is the main component of shellfish carapace's, however, does not dissociate very well in water, but the acid from the tomatoes and other ingredients could have had an effect on this as well, pushing the calcium to dissociate more. You could always try the stock without the tomatoes in it and see what sort of outcome you have, or buffer the solution before cooking so that the pH doesn't get too acidic. Yet again, when I recieve my ingredients I will spend a weekend experimenting around to see what sort of effects this may have.

[foodite]

were you able to see how he was making them

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I went again today and Chef Katsuya Fukushima was there from minibar doing the same demo. He was basically spooning an alginated solution into a calcium bath using plain old Tropicana Orange Juice. The air was made with just an immersion blender and some lecithin.

The proportions he was using was:

Alginate Solution: 500g liquid, 2.4 g sodium alginate

Calcium Bath: 500g water, 3.25g calcium chloride

I'll post pictures of it shortly.

There was also a marketing video of a Sous Chef at el Bulli making soy (sauce) noodles, green olive ravioli, and parmesan spaghetti - really awesome stuff, I could've stood there watching the looping video for hours.

[BryanZ]

Also, how do I do butter a la Chef Stupak at Alinea?  I didn't mention this in my last post but I was messing around with butter, and all I got was a big greasy oil slick on top of the alginate.

←

Finally grabbed a moment in the kitchen to have a muck around... Cooked up a little beurre monte, emulsified with some lecithin, mixed in CaCl, and then added gelatin to get the mix thick enough to handle during the sphere-making stage. Cooled over ice and then turned out into the alginate bath as usual.

It worked, after a fashion. I still find when doing reverse spherifications that the thickness of the alginate bath makes it hard to get a good sphere. Figure next time more gelatin and maybe less alginate will help ensure the butter mix is the thicker and heavier of the two. I might also see if, as Pounce suggested, that the butter's calcium level is low enough for it work with the alginate back in the mix and the CaCl in the bath.

Here's the (slightly unspherical) result after about two minutes in the alginate and then a quick wash.

Then blowtorched to remelt the gelatin. Cut into it and...

Not bad. Certainly tasted buttery, but obviously needs to be paired with contrasting tastes and textures. Any idea what they serve it with at Alinea?

Next time think I'll dip them in egg white, then coat with salt and ground freshly toasted popcorn. Spheres with beers - now that could work.

←

I'm upset I haven't seen this post until now. I'm wondering why you chose to use the reverse spherication process. I don't see much use for it in this instance and have found adding CaCl to ingredients just tastes downright gross. I think you're getting somewhere here but it might not be the easiest way. But then again, you're a lot closer than I am. Nice work.

The butter at Alinea was served with a kind of gingerbread crumb. When the the butter sphere was punctured it moistened to crumbs to turn them into a pasty kind of cakey thing.

[Digijam]

I'm upset I haven't seen this post until now. I'm wondering why you chose to use the reverse spherication process. I don't see much use for it in this instance and have found adding CaCl to ingredients just tastes downright gross.

←

In part it was just to try to the reverse method again, for a bit of practice. And also I figured the fact that butter is diary-based would make it more appropriate, both for the taste and the spherification. But that CaCl taste, while not overpowering, was still detectable. I'm starting to wonder if one of the reasons Ferran Adria went with olives using this method was so their strong flavour would mask the CaCl element.

Think in future I'm going to stick to the usual alginate-based mix when possible. It's so much more workable in every way.

Love the new foodblog, btw.

[foodite]

<a href="http://www.texturaselbulli.com">Texturas el Bulli</a> Booth at the New York Fancy Food Show:

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<center><iframe align=center src=http://www.flickr.com/slideShow/index.gne?user_id=69594707@N00&tags=texturaselbulli frameBorder=0 width=500 scrolling=no height=500></iframe></center>

[NhumiSD]

Check out this image of BK onion rings. They are remarkably uniform in size.

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It could also be that the onion rings they use for photography are either fake or are chosen for their uniformity.

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Possible, but I don't think so. Here's a picture of 3 BK onion rings on someone's blog, and they appear to be similarly uniform.

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They are extruded. In the fast food industry, or the food service, alot of the processed foods like BK onion is extruded. They may also use some binding agents (gums or stabilizers) in the onion paste.

-NhumiSD

[Reefpimp]

How would this work with cocktails? Could you do a sphere of say olive puree and before its too firmly set inject a swallow's worth of a Maritini? Or would the alcohol interfere with the chemistry going on here?

[NhumiSD]

The key is the natural calcium content of what you are trying to "sphereize". If you try to mix alginate with say cheese or milk, it will react with the calcium in the cheese and it will start to gel and ruin the sphere. So if there is calcium in the ingredients, mix with calcium chloride and drop in an alginate bath.

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This is correct, but there are ways to avoid this by "sequestering" the calcium ions using something like sodium hexametaphosphate as the sequestrant. That is requried for a number of hydrocolloids.

This is discussed in several of the books on hydrocolloids referenced in various other threads.

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Sodium citrate can be used as a sequesterant. Add the sodium citrate to tap water will remove the small amounts of CaCl2 in the water. This will allow the Alginates to hydrate properly

It will also buffer your system. If there is a certain pH that you require, adding Citric Acid and Sodium Citrate at specified quantities will buffer your system for you.

-NhumiSD

[pounce]

Check out this image of BK onion rings. They are remarkably uniform in size.

←

It could also be that the onion rings they use for photography are either fake or are chosen for their uniformity.

←

Possible, but I don't think so. Here's a picture of 3 BK onion rings on someone's blog, and they appear to be similarly uniform.

←

They are extruded. In the fast food industry, or the food service, alot of the processed foods like BK onion is extruded. They may also use some binding agents (gums or stabilizers) in the onion paste.

-NhumiSD

←

BK onion rings contain:

Diced Onions (51%), Wheat Flour, Breadcrumbs (Wheat Flour, Yeast, Salt), Rapeseed Oil, Gelling Agent (E401/Sodium Alginate).

http://www.burgerking.co.uk/pdfs/ingredients.pdf

Edited July 12, 2006 by pounce (log)

[Kouign Aman]

To add calcium for the reverse process, would casein calcinate be suitable (milk protein)? It is (with effort) water soluble, and also makes a lovely (or annoying) foam. Because its a protein it might have an undesirable effect on texture for some applications.

[jbehmoaras]

Thanks for the great pictures from the food show foodite!

Looking at the pictures it seems like the caviar was made by make the droplets from higher in the air rather than underwater which is what i supected (considering i havent been able to try this at home myself or see it done somewhere else) especially since the little trail will start to form immediately while leaving the syringe (even if a very weak formation)

[BryanZ]

I'm upset I haven't seen this post until now. I'm wondering why you chose to use the reverse spherication process. I don't see much use for it in this instance and have found adding CaCl to ingredients just tastes downright gross.

←

In part it was just to try to the reverse method again, for a bit of practice. And also I figured the fact that butter is diary-based would make it more appropriate, both for the taste and the spherification. But that CaCl taste, while not overpowering, was still detectable. I'm starting to wonder if one of the reasons Ferran Adria went with olives using this method was so their strong flavour would mask the CaCl element.

Think in future I'm going to stick to the usual alginate-based mix when possible. It's so much more workable in every way.

Love the new foodblog, btw.

←

I agree with the olive reverse spherication theory. You could add just a bit of CaCl and still have the olive flavor dominate. But still, I don't know why he wouldn't just alginate the olive puree and put that in the CaCl bath. Olives don't have calcium in them, do they?

Thank you for the kind words on the blog.

As an aside, I think it would be cool to make some olive caviar to put in a martini. It would kind of be like a dirty martini, but cooler.

[Digijam]

I agree with the olive reverse spherication theory.  You could add just a bit of CaCl and still have the olive flavor dominate.  But still, I don't know why he wouldn't just alginate the olive puree and put that in the CaCl bath.  Olives don't have calcium in them, do they?

It seems so. Adria was quoted as saying the reverse process was necessary because of the calcium levels, and checking up it seems they have 61mg per 100g - not drastically high, but more than double cream.

[percyn]

I went again today and Chef Katsuya Fukushima was there from minibar doing the same demo.  He was basically spooning an alginated solution into a calcium bath using plain old Tropicana Orange Juice.  The air was made with just an immersion blender and some lecithin. 

The proportions he was using was:

Alginate Solution: 500g liquid, 2.4 g sodium alginate

Calcium Bath: 500g water, 3.25g calcium chloride

...

Do you recall them checking the pH of the orange juice and alginate? I would have thought that OJ would be too acidic.

I had marginal success with tomato puree, which I think has lower acidity than OJ.

Edited July 16, 2006 by percyn (log)

[Tonyy13]

I read either upthread or somwhere else in EG that alcohol denatures the process.

Also, check this out, my dad had a "plexiglass connection" that turned out to be a lexan connection!! Anyway, we made this, haven't tried it out yet, but I will let you all know!!!

[foodite]

I went again today and Chef Katsuya Fukushima was there from minibar doing the same demo.  He was basically spooning an alginated solution into a calcium bath using plain old Tropicana Orange Juice.  The air was made with just an immersion blender and some lecithin. 

The proportions he was using was:

Alginate Solution: 500g liquid, 2.4 g sodium alginate

Calcium Bath: 500g water, 3.25g calcium chloride

...

Do you recall them checking the pH of the orange juice and alginate? I would have thought that OJ would be too acidic.

I had marginal success with tomato puree, which I think has lower acidity than OJ.

←

I too haven't had much success with OJ and I always thought that something had to be added to tame the acidity, but when I specifically asked about it, he said it was just plain old Tropicana and Sodium Alginate.

I haven't actually tried his proportions yet.

[skidude72]

First of all, i cant thank this board enough for the information available, and this topic has helped me understand the basics behind the liquid fillings and fruit cavier. recently while flipping through channels i saw decoding ferran adria, and was quite literally blown away by what he was able to do, and alas started an out of character spending spree on food stuff, items like the isi whipper, sodium aginate, CaCL2, citric acid... basically the works. and somehow in one night i had managed to spend a good chunk of my summer job money ( note at 16 i dont get to make all that much). i just got the whipper and i think i have foamed everything possible ( coffee milkshake actually makes a tasty foam, especially when its 95 out.) anyways back to the topic as i wieght for my sodium alginate and CaCl2 to come i did a decent amount of research (google is my friend). but after finding recipies and what i had a couple of questions, that after reading this whole topic have multiplied... ALOT. but ill stick to the basics. first is there a way to stop the reaction of the CaCl2 bath. second are there anyother ways to make the caviar other than syringes (note the 16, if i walk into a drugstore and ask for 8 syringes questions will be asked.) and one question i now have after reading this topic revolves around butter. the idea of maple syrup and butt caviar on pancakes sounds mindblowing. so has anyone made more progress on the topic, if so how and i have an idea to run by anyways, what if you melted the butter and mixed it with the maple syrup, and then just went through the regualar process, or what if you dropped maple syrup caviar into a mixture of melted butter and CaCl2 instead of water and CaCl2.

Thanks.