LCBO

[KevV]

One thing I just remembered... It kind of matches the title of this thread too...

I've heard on several occassions the LCBO is the world's biggest single purchaser of booze. You probably already knew this, but still it's impressive.

Guess that answers some of my questions above.

Edited March 16, 2006 by KevV (log)

[Wayne]

The LCBO at Bayview Village (Bayview and Sheppard) has a very good

Vintages section. The product selection in the rest of the store is not as

extensive as the Summerhill Store.

I haven't been to the Queen's Quay store in years.

The LCBO has improved tremendously since my first visit when I moved

to Toronto in 1980 from Montreal. At that time you had to fill out a form,

hand it to a clerk, pay and recieve your purchase. Among other absurd-

ities you were not allowed to look at wine labels (your purchase would be

put in a brown paper bag under the counter and handed to you). The

wine selection was very limited.

[Jake]

I really like the selection at Queen's Quay. Summerhill is good, and closer to me tho. The fairly new one at Laird & McRae has a decent selection for a regular LCBO but they are seriously lacking in knowledgeable staff and getting a special order is next to impossible.

KevV, they are the single largest purchaser -- and it is pretty impressive. I am quite amazed at the variety we have. However, that being said, because they purchase in such quantity, we do miss out on a lot of the smaller producers.

[jmcnally]

I am quite amazed at the variety we have.  However, that being said, because they purchase in such quantity, we do miss out on a lot of the smaller producers.

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They are reducing the selection all the time, unfortunately. If you're a fan of "non-critter" wine, best to find yourself a good wine agent. I'm the web guy with Lifford, and we have a large portfolio of stuff that we can sell to consumers by the case. The only issue with agents is that since you have to buy a case, it's hard to pull the trigger without being able to taste first. We try to deal with that by hosting a big charity tasting each year (May 3rd this year) where we pour all of our wines for consumers. Our web site has more details, or you could get in touch with me.

James McNally, Webmaster/Consumer Marketing

Lifford Wine Agency

[estufarian]

Let's get this 'biggest purchaser' myth out of the way once and for all!

There's a chance it's in the top 10, but, for example, some of the supermarkets in UK outsell (or outbuy, whatever) the LCBO by themselves. Specifically both Tesco and Sainsbury are larger retailers. And that doesn't even consider Germany, France and a multitude of other countries. Also LCBO isn't the biggest in Canada even. The SAQ outsells the LCBO (but, to be fair, the LCBO sells more 'booze' than SAQ, but the SAQ has a clear lead in wine, making it bigger overall).

As for stores: Summerhill is an all-brand store, so on paper it has the best selection in Toronto. However, it is now so popular that many selections are sold out quickly so actual selections may vary and Queens Quay or Bayview could have a wider selection at any point in time. But Summerhill certainly is the largest in terms of size and total inventory - and certainly has knowledgeable staff. So if you want to find 80 facings of Yellowtail, that's the place to go!

Of course, if the LCBO ever got its act together to show anything approaching a 'real' inventory on its website then we could really find the wines we're looking for. And Laird & McRae is one of the worst for actually being able to find the stock. I've now given up both calling and visiting a store that doesn't know its stock when you call; or can't find it when you visit after confirming that they have it; or actually have it after denying it exists.

And when will the LCBO get its act together on the variously named Catalogues (Classics etc) and stock. I've been turned down NUMEROUS times for wines, only to have them turn up on the shelf at Summerhill and showing 'Sold Out' on the website. The most egregious case recently was when they called me to say I was unsuccessful in the "Catalogue lottery" already having seen it on the shelf at Summerhill prior to the call!

And an almost final point - I'm told by someone in the trade that the number of listings in Alberta for wine is more than double that in Ontario. Of course, they're not all available at any one store as the stores are privately owned, but as the Alberta government controls the listing process it is possible to locate them.

And, as I'm on a roll and rant here, why does a modern retailer apply the same product code to different vintages of a wine??? Yes the LCBO has improved - but there's still plenty of opportunity to improve further.

[KevV]

Let's get this 'biggest purchaser' myth out of the way once and for all!

There's a chance it's in the top 10, but, for example, some of the supermarkets in UK outsell (or outbuy, whatever) the LCBO by themselves. Specifically both Tesco and Sainsbury are larger retailers.

You're right. It's hard to imagine the LCBO out-selling Sainsbury, certainly in volume.

I've since seen the LCBO website: 'The LCBO is the largest single purchaser of beverage alcohol in the world and one of the largest retailers.' So this claim must come from somewhere. And, also, what exactly is 'beverage alcohol.' I would think it was, as I said, booze - as in any kind of alcoholic drink. But what do they mean? Ethanol?

Are you sure about the SAQ outselling the LCBO in wine? I remember a news report not too long ago saying that Quebec consumers buy the most wine, Ontario the most beer, and maybe Newfoundland the most spirits. I suppose we can google this kind of thing.

[sadistick]

I wish Canada would allow the privatization of liquor stores ala the US.

I was in Philly not so long ago, and went to a few of their big name liquor stores, where they have this thing called "Chairman's selections" and the selection of smaller (but amazing) wineries was amazing!

I picked up a few bottles of this Newton's Unfiltered 'Epic' Merlot for $20, and it is one of the best bottles of wine I have had this year...totally amazing!

[Manolo]

I wish Canada would allow the privatization of liquor stores ala the US.

I was in Philly not so long ago, and went to a few of their big name liquor stores, where they have this thing called "Chairman's selections" and the selection of smaller (but amazing) wineries was amazing!

I picked up a few bottles of this Newton's Unfiltered 'Epic' Merlot for $20, and it is one of the best bottles of wine I have had this year...totally amazing!

←

Philly's liquor stores are State run much like our LCBO. But it helps that thier Chairman enjoys his wine.

Edited March 16, 2006 by Manolo (log)

[winemike]

A friend of mine is a sales rep at Pernod in France.

I remember our last conversation where he pointed out to me that the world's largest alcohol beverages single purchaser is... the LCBO.

I too thought this was some urban myth. Apparently, it's not.

I do not really understand why this would matter anyway. They did not have

the 1/10th of the wine I was after when I was living in T.O.

[ozver]

It is not a myth, I worked for a restaurant in Downtown Toronto Purchasing wine, and we purchased over 600000 dollars of wine alone a year. Ninety percent of the wine was "consignment" wines purchased through wine reps that never see the light of day on an LCBO shelf. Wines like the Newton Epic Merlot (try to find The Vine/Rob Groh Agency). These wines, despite the fact that they are not sold in any LCBO, are still purchased by the LCBO. This might help explain how they are the single largest purchaser, and their closest competition in this respect is apparently COSCO in the US where they are allowed to sell Booze. About six years ago the LCBO went down to E&J Gallo to taste throught their high end wines. On top of the Estate level wines and the gold label single vineyard wines, they tasted a couple of blends. Well they loved one called that they loved so much that they asked Gallo if they could purchase it. Cuvee #5 was only available in Ontario for $10 less then any of their gold label single vineyard wines and was just as good.

[mkjr]

.....Wines like the Newton Epic Merlot (try to find The Vine/Rob Groh Agency).....

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Interesting. Are these wines still good? Saw some in California for $39.99 at Beverages and More? Seemed pretty good. I thought LVMH bought out Newton? I could be wrong.

Also interesting to note the sales through agents get counted to the LCBO. I hear the LCBO gets the best prices in the world on Bordeaux. I guess they are not passing on the savings since its hard to pay futures prices that are close to or higher than US release prices – and if you see the futures prices like I do at K&L, Sam's, Beverages and More and several other places in the US, its hard to buy Bordeaux in Ontario at all - which I refuse to do.

[mkjr]

I saw a similar thread in the montreal forum on the SAQ and thought that this would be a good thread to discuss new releases, prices, events, gripes and anything else under the sun to do with the LCBO. I searched and did not see an existing thread but if there is, Jake, please merge my information below with the same. There are a few topics that have discussion on the same although none dedicated that I could see.

The idea came after I got an e-mail regarding the "A VINTAGES LATEST Exclusive Offer direct from the cellars of Château Léoville-Barton and Château Langoa-Barton". It should have been qualified by the phrase "marginal year" offer. I am so glad that they are willing to offer these marginal years to us and hold back the good years, I presume for the Classics orders to be released at their whim. I say this since I find it hard to believe that the LCBO was not also offered the 1989, 1990, 1995 or 2000 Leoville Barton in the same batch of wines. Someone can please correct me if I am wrong but I just do not think that being able to buy older marginal vintages is "exclusive". Anyone need only check http://www.wine-searcher.com to find the prices to be a little on the high side (putting in politely). But hey, what do I know anyway. I am sure there are more out there who can add more or correct me.

At least with the Latour offer they have put up the hammers. Not that I am going to buy any but if I could muster the courage I would opt for the 1982 although it appears market price is around $1100 (and recently I saw cases go for $12K or so at the LCBO auction) versus the $1695 they want.

With the 2005 Futures just starting to come out around the world, I can only wait to see how badly the LCBO will gouge consumers on these Bordeaux futures. One need only look to Robert Parker's VERY recent comments on whether one should buy this vintage to understand that you will PAY DEARLY http://dat.erobertparker.com/bboard/showthread.php?t=97193 I suspect there will not be a single good deal. Please, pretty please, prove me wrong LCBO.

Any other ideas stories would be much appreciated.

The Alsace release is coming up for those interested with some good prices on the 04 ZH wines.

[sadistick]

Over the past 2 years I have become good friends with one of the Vintages reps...Since they get to taste most of whats coming up in the next releases, he usually fills me in on whats a good buy and whats not...

Next time I talk to him I will let you all know.

ps - great idea on the topic.

Edited June 29, 2006 by sadistick (log)

[Jake]

Great topic idea, mkjr! Expecially in light of the fact that it is so easy to understand how the LCBO makes it's decisions to do, well anything!

[jmcnally]

I'm also happy to see the thread and hope to contribute. I work for Lifford, a wine agent and so may have a different perspective on some things.

[J_Ozzy]

It's about time we have a general discussion thread for the LCBO.

If you're interested in some of the previously discussed (though now dated in terms of information) releases from the Vintages division of the LCBO, check out this thread.

[mkjr]

I had to really hold back but did pass on the first round of 2005 Bordeaux futures. The offer expired today. I feel very proud. Decided to drop my cash on some Pahlmeyer Chard that was at the Queens Quay store. Not sure if this was even dumber than if I bought the Bordeaux. Be sure to get some of the ZH this week in the release. Just beware that I think that 04 may be a sweater vintage.

[sadistick]

ZH?

[Fai Jackson]

ZH?

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Ditto.

[mkjr]

ZH?

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Zind Humbrecht

[jmcnally]

Vic Harradine of WineCurrent.com wasn't that thrilled with the Zind Humbrecht: "Parker fairly gushes over every release and the wines are usually massive. However, this is a medium weight offering with a lifted nose of toast and nectarine while the flavours are peaches and honey. Bracing acidity flows through this, providing a finish that is clean and refreshing. Drink now to 2010."

He gave it 3.5 stars out of a possible 5.

[mkjr]

Vic Harradine of WineCurrent.com wasn't that thrilled with the Zind Humbrecht: "Parker fairly gushes over every release and the wines are usually massive. However, this is a medium weight offering with a lifted nose of toast and nectarine while the flavours are peaches and honey. Bracing acidity flows through this, providing a finish that is clean and refreshing. Drink now to 2010."

He gave it 3.5 stars out of a possible 5.

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Who Vic Harradine? Never heard of him. A link to a review to all of Olivier's 04s from CT (for those like myself who frequent this site):

http://www.cellartracker.com/event.asp?iEvent=1416

It is funny, however, to see Vic Harradine reference Parker gushing over every release? since I do not recall the last time Parker did a full review of Olivier's wines and to my knowledge Alsace is now Pierre Rovani's territory and Rovani's last write up was of the 2001 vintage (yet to see anything for 2002-04 and it was not in my most recent issue of WA). I think I will pass on Vic Harradine's reviews (but thanks for noting them) and hope others will pass on the ZH as a result so I can get more of the only 75 cases that came in.

Edited July 6, 2006 by mkjr (log)

[sadistick]

I will be the first to admit my knowledge of whites is not very extensive, however for $39 a bottle...thats a bit steep...especially when the site you noted only gave it an 88.

I spoke to my friend at vintages, he mentioned to me they aregoing to be getting the 15 y/o El Dorado back in shortly, just in case there are any other rum fans out there

Edited July 7, 2006 by sadistick (log)

[jayt90]

Vic Harradine of WineCurrent.com wasn't that thrilled with the Zind Humbrecht: "Parker fairly gushes over every release and the wines are usually massive. However, this is a medium weight offering with a lifted nose of toast and nectarine while the flavours are peaches and honey. Bracing acidity flows through this, providing a finish that is clean and refreshing. Drink now to 2010."

He gave it 3.5 stars out of a possible 5.

←

Who Vic Harradine? Never heard of him. A link to a review to all of Olivier's 04s from CT (for those like myself who frequent this site):

http://www.cellartracker.com/event.asp?iEvent=1416

It is funny, however, to see Vic Harradine reference Parker gushing over every release? since I do not recall the last time Parker did a full review of Olivier's wines and to my knowledge Alsace is now Pierre Rovani's territory and Rovani's last write up was of the 2001 vintage (yet to see anything for 2002-04 and it was not in my most recent issue of WA). I think I will pass on Vic Harradine's reviews (but thanks for noting them) and hope others will pass on the ZH as a result so I can get more of the only 75 cases that came in.

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I've given up on Harradine. The newsletter ratings tend to be on the high side though not in this case. I've never been burned by a Parker rating, even when hyped by the Vintages blurb. After all these years he is still a consumer advocate first and foremost. That ZH is a bit pricey, but I may try it, if it comes to local store.

[jayt90]

Speaking of ratings, I've noticed that the Star, and also NOW magazine are featuring three wines, weekly, two of them in the under $15 range, and one over (still not expensive, usually under $20.)

Both publications tend to group everything in the middle-upper range of their ratings. 87-90 is typical for Stimmel, and NNNN out of 5 is common for NOW. Like most other published ratings,Natalie included, they are afraid of revealing the real clunkers, and I suspect many wines are uplifted somewhat beyond their worth.