Soft vs. chewy

[doronin]

Recently I walked in to a coffee shop that also serves sandwiches on the bread they bake on site. The loaves they make are classic very soft white sandwich bread - the loaves are huge, and... I'd even call them beautiful.

No, I'm not thrilled by this kind of bread, which most of the time happens to be pretty tasteless, but I was always wondering what exactly makes that bread that extremelly light and soft? Special timing? Amount of yeast? Anything else?

And vice versa - if one wanted to make his bread stiffer, what should be changed in the process?

Edited September 19, 2005 by doronin (log)

[piazzola]

I am not artisan baker but baked few loaves here and there

Generally for chewy bread a high protein (gluten)flour is needed.

On the other hand a softer flour and less protein will yield a softer bread

Other ingredients may be used like bread improver or aereators etc for uniform crumb and springiness.

Then different methods yield different results that is mixing times, fermentation, methods of cutting a shaping, steam injection or not steam,etc

[Darcie B]

There are a lot of variables that come into play and I highly recommend getting a basic breadmaking book like Peter Reinhart's The Bread Baker's Apprentice to understand it more fully. You can probably check out a copy at your local library if you don't want to invest in a copy (but after reading it you probably will).

Keep in mind that I am not a pro, so I might get a few details wrong. Basically in a soft, white sandwich bread the flour is a bleached white flour, and there are added bread conditioners to make it soft and light. These include fats (oil, eggs, butter, shortening) and different liquids (milk), and many unpronounceable chemicals like diacetyltartaric acid esters of monoglycerides (DATEM) and stearoyl lactylates (SSL), mainly used in commercial operations. The conditioners help keep the dough from being overworked, strengthen gluten, and in other ways, like helping the dough to attract moisutre, will work to keep the bread soft. Not overmixing or overworking the dough is key to a soft bread. These breads are also baked at a lower temperature than rustic breads.

Changing the type of flour, fats, liquids and other additional ingredients as well as baking temperature and time will change the texture of the bread. For example, a chewy French baguette will contain only flour, water, salt and yeast, will be baked (preferably in a stone oven or at least on a preheated baking stone) at a high temperature, and then you will have a crusty, chewy, more dense bread than a sandwich loaf.

[jackal10]

The density and chewiness of bread depend on a large number of factors:

Amount of water in the dough (hydration).

- The wetter the dough, the bigger the holes. Cibatta is about the extreme at the wet end

- The flour properties

- Additives, such as vitamin C which oxidises an enzyme that denatures the gluten

- Mechanical work and the bread making technique. Some is even mixed under pressure or cacuum to modify their characteristics

- The heat and amount of steam in the oven.

Short process doughs, such as Wonderbread, use lots of additives, strong mechanical mixing and short rise times.

[chiantiglace]

All enrichening products yield different qualities in bread, as a lot of examples stated already. Some breads have a high amount of fat in them, which actually weigh the dough down slightyduring proofing stages. I high amount of sugar will make a darker crimb being there is a higher caramelization factor. Proofing also has a subtantial effect on the softness of breads. Some people just do not know how to proof. Some let there bread go until there is huge bubbles petruding from the surface. While some may not proof at all and bake straight from the shaping table. Obviosly the less proof the denser the bread is going to be, and the more proofed it's going to be much more airaeted, though soft to the touch it will be chewier.

[doronin]

Darcie - thanks for the book recommendation, I have read that one as well as... 4 other, also very good ones. Some of them explain basics, many explain how to make that specific kind of bread, but I couldn't find any that explains generic ways to modify the recipe to make it softer, lighter, stiffer, denser - well the latest is the simplest option , etc.

Jack - as I'm trying to understand their way to produce a sandwich bread, only this time I'm less concerned with big irregular holes, and more of pretty even crumb that has much more air then... bread.

BTW, while it's just incomparable with artisan breads, it's still much better then Wonderbread and the like, I guess just due to the fact it's locally baked and contains little, if any, preservatives.

Here comes something I don't get, few points from the above:

- for softer bread we need a soft flour (low gluten)

- for higher bread they use additives that strengthen gluten

As both factors are pretty much mutually exclusive - low weak gluten vs. strong gluten, it's a mistery how do they manage to produce both soft and very light sandwich loaves.

What must be the key factor here is extensibility of the dough - so the question is how do I increase the extensibility of the dough?

Edited September 20, 2005 by doronin (log)

[aidensnd2]

Adding sugar will also give you a light, soft bread.

[boulak]

Doronin, I would suggest trying a recipe for Pain de Mie. The milk, butter, egg, and sugar as well as techinique will provide the characteristics you describe. Develop the dough before the addition of the butter as you would for brioche.

[doronin]

In continuation of this topic... Recently, while visiting Montreal, I tasted some interesting bread from a little natural food store. It's fully organic 100% whole wheat and rye surdough, made in "brick" form, not high at all. What was interesting about it is its texture - crispy outside, very moist, even a little sticky, inside; crumb is soft, but not sponge like - if you slice it and poke the crumb it will almost fall apart in big (I mean big) crumbles. It's kinda friable inside. And, it's delicious!

In the list of ingredients there was just grain, salt, water - no milk, sugar, or shortenings and such, usually used to softer the crumb.

There must be some magic there - otherwise I cannot explain how could they do it. Do they have to describe all additions in Canada?

Any idea how to make such a bread using just... flour, salt and water? My understanding it should come dense and not friable from those ingredients!

[piazzola]

Another factor to consider is the types of flours used and many home bakers overlook this fact when trying to replicate a bread loaf

Many of the commercial flours be it special or not are just not available to the home baker unless you are prepared to buy in bulk from a distributor if any at all in your area.

[jackal10]

No, no, no! There is no magic flour

The type of flour has only a small amount to do with the final product, except in gross character - rye vs wheat, wholemeal vs white, soft vs hard.

Technique is more important.

What distingusihes most commercial bread is that it is often made using the "no-time" or chorleywoood process. Short high intensity mixing, often under air pressure, followed by expansion in a vacuum, very hard to duplicate at home. You can mix in a food processor - usually the bread has about 11 watt/hours per kg work done in the mixer, which for a 650w food processor means about a minute. The result is like a cream, but one that will stiffen up quickly if you fold it a couple of times.

[oraklet]

In continuation of this topic... Recently, while visiting Montreal, I tasted some interesting bread from a little natural food store. It's fully organic 100% whole wheat and rye surdough, made in "brick" form, not high at all. What was interesting about it is its texture - crispy outside, very moist, even a little sticky, inside; crumb is soft, but not sponge like - if you slice it and poke the crumb it will almost fall apart in big (I mean big) crumbles. It's kinda friable inside. And, it's delicious!

In the list of ingredients there was just grain, salt, water - no milk, sugar, or shortenings and such, usually used to softer the crumb.

There must be some magic there - otherwise I cannot explain how could they do it. Do they have to describe all additions in Canada?

Any idea how to make such a bread using just... flour, salt and water? My understanding it should come dense and not friable from those ingredients!

←

sounds very much like at typical danish "rye" bread, though wheat is mostly added to that only in small quantities, like 20%. no additives are needed to get that texture.

Edited October 3, 2005 by oraklet (log)

[doronin]

It's not like a Danish bread (well, of those I've seen in Canada), as it's not dense (I might be confused, but all "northern" breads I tried, including German, Danish, and others, were very moist but dense, even hard inside).

As for methods typical for "commercial" breads, it makes sense, though I'm doubt a little organic bakery would use the same methods as those making Wonder bread, and again, unlike most commercial bread this one was really tasty.

[chiantiglace]

Im interested in what kind of "sugar" they are using. If its an invert sugar like neuveline or trimoline the heavy consistency of the sugar can make the bread feel almost as if its sticky after baked. While as the shortenings added sounds like it has a similar process to that of brioche, adding in the shortenings after the dough has be mixed softening it. Also sounds like the dough had a high water percentage since it had such little rise, rather it may rise out similar to that of foccacia. In this case it may have been slow risen and pressed down a couple times giving it a nice crips crust when hitting a 450 degree oven leaving it with a soft maybe almost sticky inside.

Edited October 3, 2005 by chiantiglace (log)