John Thorne

[SethG]

Thanks again for participating.

Another controversy for you:

In your first work, Brother Juniper's Bread Book, you address a criticism leveled at commercial bread by John Thorne in his book Outlaw Cook. Thorne romanticizes wild-yeast (sourdough) bread, baked in a brick oven, as the only bread worth making-- and in my view he over-romanticizes it. In your book, you defend the professional or home baker who relies on commercial yeast, arguing that there are many ways to address the problem of bread, and that the baker can think of his or her own approaches to many different bread issues as artisanal, even while using commercial yeast.

Thorne responded to your essay with some faint praise of your book-- but he basically derides your Brother Juniper bread as reliant on flavorings, and states a preference for breads that create greatness from just flour, water, and salt.

I'm curious as to your thoughts on this issue some twelve years later. It seems that in your own works on bread you have moved toward Thorne's position, if not on the subject of the outdoor brick oven, than at least on the issue of the ingredients of what you call "world class" bread, which extracts its flavor from the wheat, and not from imaginative additives. You've devoted much of your attention to the ways in which we can coax the most out of just flour, water, and salt, and focused less on things like Tex-Mex Cumin bread. On the other hand, your multigrain Struan bread--which is chock-full of extra ingredients-- is such a great achievement that I imagine you're still quite proud of it, whatever Thorne thinks.

Thanks for any thoughts you have to add.

[Peter Reinhart]

Thanks again for participating.

Another controversy for you:

In your first work, Brother Juniper's Bread Book, you address a criticism leveled at commercial bread by John Thorne in his book Outlaw Cook.  Thorne romanticizes wild-yeast (sourdough) bread, baked in a brick oven, as the only bread worth making-- and in my view he over-romanticizes it.  In your book, you defend the professional or home baker who relies on commercial yeast, arguing that there are many ways to address the problem of bread, and that the baker can think of his or her own approaches to many different bread issues as artisanal, even while using commercial yeast.

Thorne responded to your essay with some faint praise of your book-- but he basically derides your Brother Juniper bread as reliant on flavorings, and states a preference for breads that create greatness from just flour, water, and salt. 

I'm curious as to your thoughts on this issue some twelve years later.  It seems that in your own works on bread you have moved toward Thorne's position, if not on the subject of the outdoor brick oven, than at least on the issue of the ingredients of what you call "world class" bread, which extracts its flavor from the wheat, and not from imaginative additives.  You've devoted much of your attention to the ways in which we can coax the most out of just flour, water, and salt, and focused less on things like Tex-Mex Cumin bread.  On the other hand, your multigrain Struan bread--which is chock-full of extra ingredients-- is such a great achievement that I imagine you're still quite proud of it, whatever Thorne thinks.

Thanks for any thoughts you have to add.

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Seth,

What are you, some kind of s---disturber! Just kidding, I love your question and I also love the writings of John Thorne, one of our truly most original food essayists. My point of contention with him back then, and still today (not with him but with people who adopt what I consider an elitist position on bread), is that there are many ways to make great tasting bread and we don't have to denigrate one in order to praise another. I agree with John totally about the joys of flying without a net and working with the simplest of ingredients in uncontrollable environments all for the purpose and possibility of creating a loaf that is good beyond belief. I loved his image then as I still do today. I just didn't like the idea that to bake in a controlled fashion or with commercial yeast was somewhat of a lesser accomplishment. I used my Struan bread (still my favorite all time bread) as an example of being creative within the bread paradigm using other ingredients and commercial yeast. I think John understands my point, and I certainly honor his, and for the most part I think we're pretty simpatico on the matter. There truly is something enriching and fulfilling about evoking the full potential of flavor from wheat and wheat alone, using time honored baking and fermentation methods that really test the craftsmanship of the baker. As one gets more into bread baking it's important, I think, to explore the limitless depth of making simple breads superbly, as well as learning to blend many ingredients in harvest and festival type breads for a completely different taste and function. Both categories reflect powerful symbolism and together they really portray the full breadth and depth of the bread experience and its traditonal role as a symbol of life and the presence of the Creator in creation.

[SethG]

Seth,

    What are you, some kind of s---disturber!

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Hey, we have to do something to make this a challenge for you, right?

Thanks for your thoughtful reply.