Foie Gras Ban/the Ethics of Foie Gras

[Ken]

I took some of my kitchen staff to visit the Sonoma Foie Gras/Artisan farm yesterday as they wanted to see for themselves what I have told them of my previous visits. It was my 5th visit to the farm since the early 1990's.

Having followed this thread, I did ask some questions and will attempt to answer a few of the remaining questions in the "list" upthread that Derricks has not already handled. His excellent posts are totally accurate and in line with my observations.

At SFG they do not use a lighting cycle to create a false autumn. The birds in the managed feeding program are kept indoors in raised pens with about 10 birds to 40 square feet of space. The raised pens allow for easy cleaning/removal of waste. The barns are cooled with "swamp coolers" and under constant intense ventilation to provide the birds with abundant fresh well oxygenated air. The barns are dimly lit as this keeps the birds calm.

The birds are not fed any hormones or antibiotics. The only medication they receive is avian cholera immunization, shots, twice.

The average weight of a harvested liver is just over 500 grams. Indeed, this is the size that I find has consistently the best texture seared.

The morbidity rate is about 2%, slightly lower in cool weather.

There are differences in production methods at all of the farms in discussion. The most important is whether the farm uses pens or cages. Both SFG and HV use pens with ample room for the ducks. One big advantage to this is that the ducks are able to extend and flap their wings. To a duck this is an expression of pleasure and helps alleviate stress. In the small cages they cannot do this.

The other big difference is the length of managed feeding cycle. At SFG it is two weeks, at HV it is closer to a month. The Canadian farms, which use cages not pens, do a slower cycle too, I believe it is 3 weeks. If so, 3 weeks is a long time for a duck to be kept in a small cage.

Animal cruelty is a lot like pornography, the definition may be difficult even for a supreme court justice, but we all know it when we see it. My definition may differ from Larry Flynt, but we're both entitled to our opinions. That being said, I cannot find any cruelty in the gavage process that I have observed many times over the last 15 years. I am familiar with lots of farming operations which practice excellent animal husbandry and SFG (the only Foie Gras operation I have observed directly) has exemplary standards. The ducks do not suffer from gavage, period. It is a quick painless process, far less problematic than many other generally accepted farming practices.

Unfortunately, it is easy to portray the process as cruel. This perception of cruelty is the crux of the matter. The writer of the Bon Appetit article laid it all out pretty well but didn't have the guts to make the call that it is not cruel. I do not suffer from such indecision. I can look the ducks in the eye, satisfy myself that they are not suffering and look forward to eating their livers next week with no guilt.

If I had any doubt, I would simply stop serving foie gras, but it is a fine product raised by fine people I am proud to have as friends.

[Carolyn Tillie]

Very nicely presented, Ken...

And pleased that I have enjoyed your Foie Gras preparations!

[jamiemaw]

Terrific post, Ken. I would say that your experience largely parallels my own at 'Farm No. 2', near Quebec City, where the husbandry of the animals was paramount. I would eat their product; unforturtunately we cannot access it here.

[docsconz]

Perhaps a potential solution to the dilemma would be to regulate the industry to certain standards such as those at Sonoma rather than ban it altogether.

[slkinsey]

Good stuff, Ken. Although there are differences in things like cooked versus raw grain and the use of "false Autumn" lighting, much of what you have said, and all the important particulars, agree with that I have heard from visitors to Hudson Valley Foie Gras.

[hhlodesign]

After a quick search around the web and within eGullet, it appears that it may be possible that our children may not be able to enjoy the fabulous delicacy we take for granted today. I've found threads within eGullet discussing bans in California, New York, Chicago, and Philly (I'm sure I missed others.)

As we all know, Chicago was the first American city to institute a ban. California's ban goes into affect in 2012. The consensus in New York is that the current PETA approach of classifying the ducks used for foie gras production as "diseased animals," and therefore illegal to produce and consume, has teeth. National grocery giant Whole Foods refuses to do business with anyone that produces ducks for the creation of foie gras. Which means Sonoma Foie Gras has lost its duck supplier. With California and New York being the only areas in America which produce foie gras, is it conceivable that a ban on importing the product is next, and we could be left completely without the foie gras in the near future?

It should also be noted that certain juristictions in France have already banned the practice of "gavage," or forced feeding. The EU is looking to phase out the force feeding of geese over the next 15 years (as of 2004.) "Any producers not using more humane methods at the end of that time would face the prospect of being banned."

It seems that many chefs have already accepted the fact that foie is going the way of the dodo.

To quote Tony Bourdain, "it will likely disappear entirely from menus in my lifetime."

The common notion is that the PETAs were clever in picking on something that has a small number of supporters (most of whom will be rich, apathetic, and unable to garner public support.) We all know that factory farmed chickens, swine, and cattle are treated much worse than a foie gras duck in this country.

Is there anything that we can do? Apart from writing our representatives, do we have other options for turning the tide here? Would a public boycott of Whole Foods do anything? I've already stopped shopping there, (and stopped eating at restaurants that refuse to serve foie gras.) I know we are all busy people, but it seems that if we just sit back and let these PETA people tell us what we can and cannot eat, they won't just stop at Foie Gras!

Edited July 7, 2006 by hhlodesign (log)

[docsconz]

I have also stopped shopping at Whole foods. I don't patronize retsaurants that advocate against foie gras, although I don't require it to be on the menu.

I think your concerns are legitimate.

[hhlodesign]

I have also stopped shopping at Whole foods. I don't patronize retsaurants that advocate against foie gras, although I don't require it to be on the menu.

I think your concerns are legitimate.

←

I should clarify about the restaurant issue. I am in the same boat as you. They don't have to have it on the menu, but if they advocate against it, they are off my list. I'm not that much of a freak!

[Megan Blocker]

I have also stopped shopping at Whole foods. I don't patronize retsaurants that advocate against foie gras, although I don't require it to be on the menu.

I think your concerns are legitimate.

←

Ditto here.

[johnder]

Whole foods was on it's way off my shopping list a few months ago, but the fois and lobster announcements were really the last straw.

[a2k]

I think the key point here is in hhlodesign's original post:

"Any producers not using more humane methods at the end of that time would face the prospect of being banned."

Nobody's telling anybody what they can and can't eat. They are saying that extremely inhumane production methods will not be tolerated. Find a humane way to produce foie gras and people will stop complaining. Until then, I think you're right, our children might not eat the delicacy you take for granted, and I think that is very much a step in the right direction.

[Megan Blocker]

Until then, I think you're right, our children might not eat the delicacy you take for granted, and I think that is very much a step in the right direction.

←

Aaaaand, we're off.

I do not take foie gras for granted; as a matter of fact, I take nothing that I eat for granted. I do not agree that foie gras is inhumane to produce, and, therefore, I continue to eat it. On the other hand, I make every effort to avoid, say, factory-raised chicken. I do not prepare it in my own home, and I do my best to avoid it elsewhere.

I do not take the animals who have died for my meals for granted, and for you to assume the opposite is not really all that fair to me.

ETA: I forgot to say that everyone is entitled to their own opinions; I assume that you disagree with mine, and that you believe foie gras production is inhumane. That's your perogative. But please don't assume that I haven't thought this through.

I also believe that foie gras bans gain a lot of support (though not always their genesis) from people practicing reverse snobbery rather than people concerned about humane treatment. Therefore, I am certainly of the opinion that a great many people involved in the movement are, in fact, trying to tell me what I can and cannot eat for no good reason whatsoever.

Edited July 7, 2006 by Megan Blocker (log)

[andiesenji]

In my opinion PETA has only the best interests of PETA at heart.

I asked them for help in shutting down an ongoing auction of dogs, some of which were suspected to be dognapped pets, and I was told that, #1, it was too dangerous for a group of protestors because the people running the auction were "hicks that love guns" and "it won't make enough news for it to be worth our while."

When I noted that some of the dogs were auctioned off to people who supplied dogs to laboratories, they said "give us the name of a laboratory and we will work on them, that will make the news."

Also, as has been said before, the feeding of these fowl is not all that inhumane.

All migratory fowl will gorge in preparation for a long migration even when domesticated for hundreds of generations. Ducks and geese that have a heightened apitude for this have been bred over many, many generations to enhance this trait.

If you were to see the ducks running after the person with the feed bucket, you might understand this a little better. Animals are smart enough to stay away from people who abuse them.

Swans gorge also, we no longer consider them to be a menu item, however they can produce immense livers all by themselves when they gorge but don't migrate.

Edited July 7, 2006 by andiesenji (log)

[Kent Wang]

Maybe we can count on China to produce and export foie gras. They already force-feed ducks for Peking duck.

[Megan Blocker]

Maybe we can count on China to produce and export foie gras. They already force-feed ducks for Peking duck.

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Mmmm, good point - is the proposed New York ban on the selling of foie gras, or just its production?

[johnder]

Nobody's telling anybody what they can and can't eat. They are saying that extremely inhumane production methods will not be tolerated.

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Personally I think the way chickens and pigs are raised in a factory is extremely inhumane. I would be overjoyed if 20% of the attention given to the fois production and its "issues" were directed towards Purdue or Tyson where I think it would have a much bigger impact on people given the number of people that eat chickens versus fois.

I think it is a very slippery slope we are on the verge on -- where once people have the power to influence bans on one thing, where will it stop?

Edited July 7, 2006 by johnder (log)

[slbunge]

I think it is a very slippery slope we are on the verge on -- where once people have the power to influence bans on one thing, where will it stop?

←

Perhaps instead of 'people' you mean 'PETA'. Because, regardless of whether you believe that production of abnormally large goose livers should be banned, we should all agree that it is a pretty great thing that we the PEOPLE have the power to elect lawmakers and then influence them to act on our behalf.

[hhlodesign]

Nobody's telling anybody what they can and can't eat. They are saying that extremely inhumane production methods will not be tolerated.

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Not to beat a dead horse, (I wonder if that's humane? ) but this statement is disingenuous at best. If the stance is simply against "extremely inhumane production methods," they would seek to ban the previously mentioned factory farmed animals bred for food. Meat eaters alike have already spoken out against (and refuse to purchase) many of the methods the major corporations practice in producing our meat products. However, to propose a ban on those methods would open a huge can of worms related to socio-econnomic issues in this country. It would also be much more transparent that the agenda is, in fact, to tell others what they can and cannot eat. When the "others" are people who eat foie gras, as opposed to working class people eating Tyson Chicken, PETA knows they will have public support, or indifference.

Taken to its logical conclusion, dropping a lobster into boiling water, slicing the throat of a cow, cutting the head off a chicken, raising an animal to be consumed, or killing a wild animal in the woods can all be seen as inhumane. I'm guessing many PETAs see these acts as such. Would they propose to ban all these practices?

[hhlodesign]

we should all agree that it is a pretty great thing that we the PEOPLE have the power to elect lawmakers and then influence them to act on our behalf.

←

Herein lies the problem. Foie gras lovers will always be a minority. Does this mean we have less rights as citizens to eat what we choose? We are so insignificant in number that we are a non-issue to our elected officials. They listen to the people who will vote for them and the lobbies. Who wants to start a citizens for foie gras lobby!

I am proud to live in a country where people can hold views different from the majority without fear of persecution. But since Neo-Nazis (or athiests, or Buddists, or vegans, or fill in the under-represented minority) hold such an insignificant number of followers, can the people who hold differing beliefs propose legislation to eliminate them from existence? Not in America!

Edited July 7, 2006 by hhlodesign (log)

[MissAmy]

Nobody's telling anybody what they can and can't eat. They are saying that extremely inhumane production methods will not be tolerated.

←

Personally I think the way chickens and pigs are raised in a factory is extremely inhumane. I would be overjoyed if 20% of the attention given to the fois production and its "issues" were directed towards Purdue or Tyson where I think it would have a much bigger impact on people given the number of people that eat chickens versus fois.

←

Foie gras is a much easier target than Tyson and Purdue, although I do agree with you on both counts. It is completely and utterly hypocritical to ban foie gras for cruelty and not try to get Tyson Chicken out of operation. The whole thing is ridiculous.

[johnsmith45678]

Taken to its logical conclusion, dropping a lobster into boiling water, slicing the throat of a cow, cutting the head off a chicken, raising an animal to be consumed, or killing a wild animal in the woods can all be seen as inhumane. I'm guessing many PETAs see these acts as such. Would they propose to ban all these practices?

←

I once heard an interview with PETA's head - Ingrid Newkirk - and she basically stated that's it's also inhumane to step on insects, kill spiders, and even swat mosquitos.

[little ms foodie]

Nobody's telling anybody what they can and can't eat. They are saying that extremely inhumane production methods will not be tolerated.

←

Personally I think the way chickens and pigs are raised in a factory is extremely inhumane. I would be overjoyed if 20% of the attention given to the fois production and its "issues" were directed towards Purdue or Tyson where I think it would have a much bigger impact on people given the number of people that eat chickens versus fois.

I think it is a very slippery slope we are on the verge on -- where once people have the power to influence bans on one thing, where will it stop?

←

I just can't agree with this statement enough. I have had friends who worked in chicken farms and holy hell if PETA published pictures of what his job was it would be amazing. My inlaws also lived in Arkansas for a while and to see those trucks of chickens - many dead and others living on them- heading down the interstate, UGH 'nugh said.

Not only do fowl gorge themselves before migratory flights but their gullets are hard and scaley making, this is why they don't fear the feeding tube but run toward it.

I eat organic farm raised animals 89% of the time because I care, I eat foie gras and will be quite sad the day it is banned- not because of all the people who will miss out on this beautiful ingrediant but because more people see it as a bigger issue than the factory pig, beef and chicken farms.

[laurelm]

Personally I think the way chickens and pigs are raised in a factory is extremely inhumane. I would be overjoyed if 20% of the attention given to the fois production and its "issues" were directed towards Purdue or Tyson where I think it would have a much bigger impact on people given the number of people that eat chickens versus fois.

ITA, and the quality of this meat is disgusting as well.

I wish attention was given to these.

[Ohba]

Maybe we can count on China to produce and export foie gras. They already force-feed ducks for Peking duck.

←

China's already a big producer.

[chef koo]

i'm not really a political person but what would carry more weight? PETA, or a all the foie gras eating people put together? i'm sure PETA knows what they're talking about but i'm sure that people on the other side can make a good argument in favor of foie gras.